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Zero2Cool
2020-12-28T15:38:34Z
It's cute how folks worry themselves over snap counts, depth chart, etc and I'm all just like ... scoreboard bitches.
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wpr
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2020-12-28T15:46:30Z
Originally Posted by: nerdmann 

Has EQ usurped MVS?



I thought so. MVS was invisible last night. Granted it wasn't a night for throwing the deep ball but still nothing was thrown his way.

Also, it doesn't matter what someone's over all snap count for the year is, your question pertained to more recent games and going forward not overall years of the 2020 Packers.
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Mucky Tundra
2020-12-28T16:43:35Z
Packers Week 16 Snap Counts Versus The Titans 

Snaps % of offensive plays
Quote:

MVS 41 62



So a little under 2/3s of the offensive snaps for MVS. So there ya go nerd
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Zero2Cool
2020-12-28T17:32:32Z
I'm gonna join in on the Debbie Downer stuff. That 59 yard run by Aaron Jones. It's a good thing he didn't score a TD. What is wrong with you, Kevin?!?! How can you say that? Really easily because if it was a score, it would have been reviewed and they would have noticed he stepped out around 45 yard line.

It's a good thing Aaron Jones isn't a speedy guy!
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wpr
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2020-12-28T17:41:39Z
Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool 

I'm gonna join in on the Debbie Downer stuff. That 59 yard run by Aaron Jones. It's a good thing he didn't score a TD. What is wrong with you, Kevin?!?! How can you say that? Really easily because if it was a score, it would have been reviewed and they would have noticed he stepped out around 45 yard line.

It's a good thing Aaron Jones isn't a speedy guy!



I said that to my wife when we saw the replay. The lack of a challenge was completely the fault of Vrabel. Any time you see a team sprint down the field, especially those big chunky boys, you should know they are trying get the next play off before it's challenged. All the more so when the play was on the Packer sideline. Having a challenge not go your way is not the end of the world. He should have showed a little guts and made the decision without the guys in the booth whispering in his ear.
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Mucky Tundra
2020-12-28T17:55:33Z
Originally Posted by: wpr 

I said that to my wife when we saw the replay. The lack of a challenge was completely the fault of Vrabel. Any time you see a team sprint down the field, especially those big chunky boys, you should know they are trying get the next play off before it's challenged. All the more so when the play was on the Packer sideline. Having a challenge not go your way is not the end of the world. He should have showed a little guts and made the decision without the guys in the booth whispering in his ear.



I came away unimpressed with Vrabel after this game. Between punting from Green Bay's 30 and not challenging here he did the Titans no favors. Not challenging the run was egregious as the Titans managed to finally get some momentum and clawed back to make the game 19-14. Their D was struggling to stop the Packers O, the big boys were running to get into position and Vrabel does nothing.
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Zero2Cool
2020-12-28T18:08:02Z
Originally Posted by: wpr 

I said that to my wife when we saw the replay. The lack of a challenge was completely the fault of Vrabel. Any time you see a team sprint down the field, especially those big chunky boys, you should know they are trying get the next play off before it's challenged. All the more so when the play was on the Packer sideline. Having a challenge not go your way is not the end of the world. He should have showed a little guts and made the decision without the guys in the booth whispering in his ear.



Originally Posted by: Mucky Tundra 

I came away unimpressed with Vrabel after this game. Between punting from Green Bay's 30 and not challenging here he did the Titans no favors. Not challenging the run was egregious as the Titans managed to finally get some momentum and clawed back to make the game 19-14. Their D was struggling to stop the Packers O, the big boys were running to get into position and Vrabel does nothing.



I've seen people jumping on the Titans for not challenging. I think that's wrong. We fans had the benefit of actually watching it. I credit the Packers for getting down the field, lined up and snapping the ball before Titans could review the play. I know that's not the en vogue or culture thing to do ... you know ... give a team credit when we can bash another team, but that's how I viewed it. I had a few rounds with some folks on Twitter about it too. They were saying it was dumb to not challenge it. They assumed that Vrabel SAW the RB step out of bounds and elected not to challenge it. There was absolutely no reason for Vrabel to throw the challenge flag. The play was on the opposite sideline. They didn't show it on the jumbotron.

The lack of challenging the play was more so good on the Packers hustling than it was a failure on Titans.


Edit, I just found this.

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Mucky Tundra
2020-12-28T19:49:24Z
Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool 

I've seen people jumping on the Titans for not challenging. I think that's wrong. We fans had the benefit of actually watching it. I credit the Packers for getting down the field, lined up and snapping the ball before Titans could review the play. I know that's not the en vogue or culture thing to do ... you know ... give a team credit when we can bash another team, but that's how I viewed it. I had a few rounds with some folks on Twitter about it too. They were saying it was dumb to not challenge it. They assumed that Vrabel SAW the RB step out of bounds and elected not to challenge it. There was absolutely no reason for Vrabel to throw the challenge flag. The play was on the opposite sideline. They didn't show it on the jumbotron.

The lack of challenging the play was more so good on the Packers hustling than it was a failure on Titans.


Edit, I just found this.



Zero, for me it wasn't so much Vrabel not seeing a clear cut call but more just not letting the game get away from his guys. You can't let Green Bay's offense get going again after pulling within 1 score.

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wpr
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2020-12-28T20:08:25Z
Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool 

I've seen people jumping on the Titans for not challenging. I think that's wrong. We fans had the benefit of actually watching it. I credit the Packers for getting down the field, lined up and snapping the ball before Titans could review the play. I know that's not the en vogue or culture thing to do ... you know ... give a team credit when we can bash another team, but that's how I viewed it. I had a few rounds with some folks on Twitter about it too. They were saying it was dumb to not challenge it. They assumed that Vrabel SAW the RB step out of bounds and elected not to challenge it. There was absolutely no reason for Vrabel to throw the challenge flag. The play was on the opposite sideline. They didn't show it on the jumbotron.

The lack of challenging the play was more so good on the Packers hustling than it was a failure on Titans.


Edit, I just found this.


I know what you are saying Zero. I realize he didn't see the play. Many people don't realize that football fields are not table top flat. With some fields the crown is so large you can't see the other sideline. (old Cowboys stadium was like that. Favre said it took him a whole quarter to zero in on how to throw the ball on an out route.) AND not the least was the outstanding effort by the Packers to hustle down the field.

What I am saying is despite all these reasons, Vrabel still needed to take action. Look at the circumstances before him at that very moment and make a decision without the benefit of having indisputable evidence.

Why would a team run down the field? Is time about to expire in the quarter? No. On the play clock? No.
Do they want to avoid defensive substitutions? Perhaps.
Do they want to avoid a review? Perhaps.
Do teams normally run down the field without some specific reason? No.
Would it be more advantageous to GB or TN to not challenge? GB.
Would it be more advantageous to GB or TN if he challenged? Don't know.
Some other reason? Perhaps.

My point is, as the HC he needed to take the very small amount if information he had available, realized he isn't going to get the perfect answer and then make an action anyway. His non action was the worst case result. Most people with any kind of understanding would not have criticized him for tossing the red hanky. Even if he didn't win the challenge.

Once again, if I wasn't clear before, GB did an amazing job limiting the ability of TN to make a decision.

Great coaches don't let the other team dictate terms to them. MLF was the better coach last night all game long.

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Zero2Cool
2020-12-28T20:57:59Z
Originally Posted by: wpr 

I know what you are saying Zero. I realize he didn't see the play. Many people don't realize that football fields are not table top flat. With some fields the crown is so large you can't see the other sideline. (old Cowboys stadium was like that. Favre said it took him a whole quarter to zero in on how to throw the ball on an out route.) AND not the least was the outstanding effort by the Packers to hustle down the field.

What I am saying is despite all these reasons, Vrabel still needed to take action. Look at the circumstances before him at that very moment and make a decision without the benefit of having indisputable evidence.

Why would a team run down the field? Is time about to expire in the quarter? No. On the play clock? No.
Do they want to avoid defensive substitutions? Perhaps.
Do they want to avoid a review? Perhaps.
Do teams normally run down the field without some specific reason? No.
Would it be more advantageous to GB or TN to not challenge? GB.
Would it be more advantageous to GB or TN if he challenged? Don't know.
Some other reason? Perhaps.

My point is, as the HC he needed to take the very small amount if information he had available, realized he isn't going to get the perfect answer and then make an action anyway. His non action was the worst case result. Most people with any kind of understanding would not have criticized him for tossing the red hanky. Even if he didn't win the challenge.

Once again, if I wasn't clear before, GB did an amazing job limiting the ability of TN to make a decision.

Great coaches don't let the other team dictate terms to them. MLF was the better coach last night all game long.


Take a lot of assumptions and throw the red flag? Do you see what you wrote down? Do you consider how it is to be in the moment? Does Vrabel call the defensive play? There's so much going on and armchair people just throw their fist of blame. I just ... it's wearing me out.

You even finish off saying great coaches don't let the other team dictate terms to them, but you're actually saying Vrabel should have done just that because the team was hurrying up down the field. So now (I'm going to REACH here) a coach should throw the challenge flag every time a team runs down the field to hurry up and call a play because they think they got the defense on the ropes?

I don't even think TV viewers got a good glimpse of Jones stepping out until after the ball was snapped and if we did it was literally seconds before it was snapped.

Sorry folks, I just can't get on this train. It is absolutely wrong and hindsight wisdom to fault Mike Vrabel for not challenging that play. The guy didn't even get a look at the replay in time and people wanna thrash him. It's just incredible to me.

Just throw the red hanky and then people will blast him for it if it doesn't go his way because he's a professional. It's absolutely a no-win situation with fans. People do not take a second to think. They just react. Why? Why is this the norm rather than taking a moment to try an understand what it is like in someone else's shoes? Because that would be compassionate and show empathy.
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Zero2Cool
2020-12-28T21:02:26Z
Originally Posted by: Mucky Tundra 

Zero, for me it wasn't so much Vrabel not seeing a clear cut call but more just not letting the game get away from his guys. You can't let Green Bay's offense get going again after pulling within 1 score.



Yes, let's fault the guy for being on the opposite sideline and not having a clear cut call that apparently none of the other Titans shouted to throw the red flag or to challenge it? Why can't we just credit the Packers for hustling their ass down the field, getting a play called and snapping the ball to avoid the challenge? Why can't give credit? Why do we have always knock someone down? Don't people get sick of this? Does it make someone feel better to bash a person for something the opponent could be credited for? This just does not make sense to me. Maybe I didn't get enough sleep. Damn snow plow trucks.
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Zero2Cool
2020-12-28T21:33:50Z
I've derailed this at least two or three times ... gonna go for another just like ya motha!

Look at this... LOOK AT THIS!!!!

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Mucky Tundra
2020-12-28T22:12:33Z
Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool 

Yes, let's fault the guy for being on the opposite sideline and not having a clear cut call that apparently none of the other Titans shouted to throw the red flag or to challenge it? Why can't we just credit the Packers for hustling their ass down the field, getting a play called and snapping the ball to avoid the challenge? Why can't give credit? Why do we have always knock someone down? Don't people get sick of this? Does it make someone feel better to bash a person for something the opponent could be credited for? This just does not make sense to me. Maybe I didn't get enough sleep. Damn snow plow trucks.



Yes Green Bay deserves credit for hurrying up and getting lined up. But like wpr pointed out, when the offensive line is hurrying downfield to line up after a play like that, there's usually something there.

You throw the challenge flag to help your defense, a defense that hadn't forced a punt at that point in the game (and they wouldn't for the whole night). Worst case is you lose a challenge and use the time to let your guys regroup. Keeping Green Bay out of the end zone is paramount at this point. Keeping it a one score game keeps the playbook open on offense. A two score game limits the Titans and a lot of their passing is built on the threat of Henry running the ball well. Green Bay scoring a touchdown robs the Titans of the momentum they had after scoring on their opening drive in the 3rd. If the Titans had a better D and had forced Green Bay off the field with some punts, I would agree with you on not challenging it.

This type of tactic isn't limited to football. Baseball managers come out to talk to pitchers to stall for a guy warming up in the bullpen. Basketball coaches will call a timeout to stop another team that's scored rapidly several times off easy baskets/easy transition points/stop a run from happening.

I also found Vrabels actions (I'm including the punt from the 30 here) odd since I thought he was good at managing games, like using loopholes to run the clock down . For a guy who out Belichek'ed Belichek in the playoffs, I found his choices a little puzzling.

(Hey look, I gave a reason for my criticism based on Vrabels past actions! It's like I wasn't bashing him for the sake of bashing him!)
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Cheesey
2020-12-28T22:51:18Z
“Damned if you do, Danes if you don’t”.
I’ve seen many times where an offense hurried to snap the ball after an iffy play. Many times the guy caught the ball, or didn’t step out of bounds.
The Titans coach probably didn’t want to chance wasting a time out that he expected to need later on. And he had to know a ref was right on top of the play and didn’t call Jones out of bounds. (And yes, the ref obviously missed it)
The Titans coaches up stairs had the best chance to buzz him and let him know to challenge. THEY missed it, and to me they deserve more blame for not seeing it sooner.
That’s my take, at least.
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KRK
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2020-12-28T23:57:44Z
Cheesey chortled
Quote:

The Titans coaches up stairs had the best chance to buzz him and let him know to challenge. THEY missed it, and to me they deserve more blame for not seeing it sooner.

Perhaps, but remember, it was on the Packer sideline and their eyesight may have been blocked by Packer players or sideline staff.

I am grateful that NBC was slow on the replays, which they were all night.
In Luce tua Videmus Lucem KRK
2020-12-29T00:32:34Z
I guess there is nobody assigned in their booth upstairs to watch for these things? Jones went over 1000 yds on this play.  EqSym_qXUAEniNM.jpg You have insufficient rights to see the content.
beast
2020-12-29T01:13:00Z
St. Brown makes one play all year and suddenly he's better than MVS? What the hell?!?

No you're not always going to see the guy running the deep routes as they get extra Safeties on them and clear guys underneath. But since week 2 MVS has played 60% of the snaps each week. His snap count has been going down from when all the WRs were injured of 80% and 90% ... St. Brown has only gotten on the field for 20 snaps 3 times all year.

Though I still believe St. Brown could have a huge role in this offense as this offense usually has a star large slot WR or TE, and St. Brown can fit that mold perfectly and it's been disappointing he hasn't step up enough, and perfect time to with the TEs injured (Duraga, Sternberger at least).

That being said, MVS' speed is helping set up others and not just making plays for only himself. Plus this system seems to try to get the ball out quicker vs Mike McCarthy holding the ball longer to get the deep ball in.


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wpr
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2020-12-29T02:42:28Z
Whatever you want Zero is fine with me.

I had a fairly long response. I deleted it before even posting it. I am not looking for an argument.

Let me say again I was not condemning the coach. He had a few seconds to process what was going on, weigh his options and make his call. He made his decision. I personally feel it was the wrong one. You don't. You think it was a no win situation. I think it was a no lose situation. I think anyone who takes a job as a head coach knows they are going to be seconded guessed all the time. For some reason you feel it is unreasonable. I'm ok with your opinion.

If we can't discuss the various plays of a game without criticizing each other or saying we are not being compassionate when we express our views, then why bother coming to this or any website?

Lastly, yet again, saying he made the wrong call is not mutual exclusive of saying MLF and the Packers were excellent in their decision and execution to hustle down field.
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Cheesey
2020-12-29T03:10:41Z
Wow.....what’s going on here?
When I first came here, people gave opinions, we could discuss religion, politics, the NFL, just about anything and we respected each other and remained friends.
The few that came here that didn’t abide by that were pressured into leaving.
Now it seems anything goes. People can make fun of you and your beliefs, bully you, and do whatever they want.
It’s really taken away a lot of the fun of being here.
It’s much less like family as it used to be, and that’s sad.
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go.pack.go.
2020-12-29T12:48:37Z
I’m just wondering why such a big deal is being made about Vrabel not challenging? The play literally went in our favor and he’s not our coach. Why are we complaining about him not challenging?
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wpr
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2020-12-29T14:35:35Z
Originally Posted by: go.pack.go. 

I’m just wondering why such a big deal is being made about Vrabel not challenging? The play literally went in our favor and he’s not our coach. Why are we complaining about him not challenging?



Again, it's not complaint. It's an observation. It's the same thing as wondering why Carolina went for the FG last week when they were moving the ball and had a better chance of getting a td on that drive than they would have if they recovered the onside kick.
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