Cheesey
13 years ago

If you work for the state/public, you're not going to see big raises, you're not going to see a Christmas bonus, you'll likely have a ceiling on how much you can earn

"Porforis" wrote:



Everyone on this forum that has gotten a big raise or christmas bonus in the last two years, raise your hand. I don't disagree with much in terms of the content of your latest post but I don't agree with the implication that much of the private sector has been getting ANY of that the last two years. And most people, not ever.

"musccy" wrote:


You hit the nail on the head!

My wife, who has worked at her place of employement for 17 years, has NEVER got a "Christmas bonus". She did get a card a couple years ago, signed by the bosses. Oh....the bosses all got big bonuses.
And a 'big raise?" I think she got under 2% raise.
And lets not forget that state/public workers pretty much have a job for life, unless they murder someone.
I LOVE the teachers that are protesting that it's "all about the children"! (While they are missing classes to TEACH said children).
Let's see....a job that you have off every summer, and still get paid, "tenure" that makes it nearly impossible to get fired, great pensions.....yeah.....all about the kids.
They just don't want the "gravy train" to stop.
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musccy
13 years ago
I didn't mean to imply that everyone in the private sector flies around on golden private jets with lavish Christmas bonuses - not at all - I'm just refuting this villification of teachers and public employees right now as if they've got it made in the shade.

I myself work for a private college, 5 years and only 1 2% raise, no christmas bonuses, I'm a year-to-year contract and my job as a coach puts me in direct conflict with the public schools daily. In spite of this, I am a fervent supporter of the benefits that the public sector provides society and am appalled by the hatred and misinformation directed towards them right now.

Also - the P R I V A T E school I work for has tenure tracked faculty positions as well with reasonable health insurance and employer contributions to a retirement plan...but only the public education is riding the gravy train :facepalm:
Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
13 years ago
Don't know where this fits, since I'm in neither the "government" nor the "for-profit" sector....but...

For the third year in a row, I'm being asked to sign a contract this spring for the year starting in August, without knowing what my pay is going to be. In one of the previous two years, the dollar change was zero; in the other, it went up by about 1%, or perhaps $55/month before taxes.

Complicating matters: our salary is set according to a common scale for all, with each of us "moving up" one level on the scale each year. Traditionally, this meant we got two kinds of raises every year. One for "experience" (moving to a higher step) and one reflecting the increased demand for people like us (moving every step in the scale up from where it was the previous year). Typically, the step/reward-for-more-experience move was about 0.7% (or maybe $35 bucks a month for me).

Two years ago, this changed. The year before last, I officially moved up a "step", but my salary at step N+1 was exactly the same as it had been the year before at step N.

Now we can of course argue about whether this "step raise" system is economically wise or not. And based on the budget numbers I've seen, I definitely can see the admin's argument that we can't "afford more right now."

But I also know some other things. I know that the tight pursetrings here are not because of some "long term recessionary economy" (or whatever the phrase the admin loves to use in their rationalization -- higher education usually is countercycilcal relative to the business cycle, especially in the first year or so -- school and "additional education" improves one's resume power. And indeed, we had a year or so of higher-than-expected enrollments. I know that the pursestrings are tight because more and more people are questioning whether higher education of the sort traditional colleges/universities is worth the cost. I know the pursestrings are tight because colleges/universities have been binging on physical plant and dubious programs and ancillary services of "the college life", instead of on providing better products in their areas of core competency (i.e., educational services).

College students get more and more stuff on campus -- better living space, better food, better physical and mental health protection, better athletics and arts offerings, etc etc. But the one thing that most people think of as the "essence" or "core" of college -- the "education"? They get less. They make do with larger classes, more canned textbooks and multiple choice exams, less individual faculty attention, less mental challenge, etc etc.

As people have doubtless figured out by now, I see education as having serious problems in this country. Both higher education and primary/secondary. And you've probably also figured out that a part of my negative vision is based on my perceptions of what has happened due to poor decisions by the PTBs where I work.

But I watch this debate about "Walker and the unions" and I think, if I were in Wisconsin, I'd want a solution that got rid of both the unions and the politicians. (And probably the monopoly power of local school boards, too, by getting rid of compulsory education, but that's another argument for another day.)

I look at Walker and the unions, and I see people who see all solutions in terms of the amount that teachers do/do not get paid. Teacher pay, whether it is too high or too low, is at most a symptom of far deeper problems.

And if all we do is focus on the pay question -- if all I do is focus on how little my raises have been, if all my employer does is focus on the additional cost of faculty salary raises -- we keep ignoring the real problem

The real problem is not salaries or public funding. Sorry, folks, it just isn't. The real problem is that what passes for "education" in this country today is fundamentally out of touch with the actual needs of an economy/society as complex and as big and as subject to tech/cultural change as ours.

I don't much care who wins or loses in Walker v. The Unions. In my opinion, unless the people of Wisconsin realize that BOTH Walker AND the Unions are playing losing hands, unless they can find a way to reject them both AND find something better, they're going to keep getting fucked over education-wise.

And no, I don't have a solution. But I do know that the solution doesn't lie with listening people who have, over and over, demonstrated by word and deed that they are part of the problem.
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
musccy
13 years ago

My wife, who has worked at her place of employement for 17 years, has NEVER got a "Christmas bonus". She did get a card a couple years ago, signed by the bosses. Oh....the bosses all got big bonuses.



Doesn't this make a case for the validity of unions?

I LOVE the teachers that are protesting that it's "all about the children"! (While they are missing classes to TEACH said children).



Is dissolving the unions all about the budget, as Walker claims it is? If so why are some left in tact while others abolished...and what do bargining rights have to do with state finances anyway? There are half-truths in both statements.

No, the teachers are not pure altruists - they want to be paid well and have bargining rights - but there is truth that the 834 mil in K-12 cuts may impact music, theatre, class sizes, AP classes, etc. Same for the budget claims - unions don't cost Walker or WI anything - but getting rid of htem will make it easier for communities to have "the tools," as Walker says, to slice and dice teachers and programs as they see fit.

Wade - what are you getting at with the flaws in education - SOLs, the content of what we teach, the way in which we teach (lecture vs. inquiry based)? I'm not accusing, just inquiring.
Pack93z
13 years ago
Just as the Unions are bankrolling on part of this fight.. Walker side has it own funding.

When are the middle class and below going to see that neither side has OUR interests in complete focus, you know the heart of this nation?



Billionaire Brothers Money Plays Role in Wisconsin Dispute 
By ERIC LIPTON

WASHINGTON Among the thousands of demonstrators who jammed the Wisconsin State Capitol grounds this weekend was a well-financed advocate from Washington who was there to voice praise for cutting state spending by slashing union benefits and bargaining rights.

The visitor, Tim Phillips, the president of Americans for Prosperity, told a large group of counterprotesters who had gathered Saturday at one edge of what otherwise was a mostly union crowd that the cuts were not only necessary, but they also represented the start of a much-needed nationwide move to slash public-sector union benefits.

We are going to bring fiscal sanity back to this great nation, he said.

What Mr. Phillips did not mention was that his Virginia-based nonprofit group, whose budget surged to $40 million in 2010 from $7 million three years ago, was created and financed in part by the secretive billionaire brothers Charles G. and David H. Koch.

State records also show that Koch Industries, their energy and consumer products conglomerate based in Wichita, Kan., was one of the biggest contributors to the election campaign of Gov. Scott Walker of Wisconsin, a Republican who has championed the proposed cuts.

Even before the new governor was sworn in last month, executives from the Koch-backed group had worked behind the scenes to try to encourage a union showdown, Mr. Phillips said in an interview on Monday.

State governments have gone into the red, he said, in part because of the excessively generous pay and benefits that unions have been able to negotiate for teachers, police, firefighters and other state and local employees.

We thought it was important to do, Mr. Phillips said, adding that his group is already working with activists and state officials in Indiana, Ohio and Pennsylvania to urge them to take similar steps to curtail union benefits or give public employees the power to opt out of unions entirely.

To union leaders and liberal activists in Washington, this intervention in Wisconsin is proof of the expanding role played by nonprofit groups with murky ties to wealthy corporate executives as they push a decidedly conservative agenda.

The Koch brothers are the poster children of the effort by multinational corporate America to try to redefine the rights and values of American citizens, said Representative Gwen Moore, Democrat of Wisconsin, who joined with others in the union protests.

A spokesman for Koch Industries, as well as Mr. Phillips, scoffed at that accusation. The companies owned by Koch (pronounced Coke) which include the Georgia-Pacific Corporation and the Koch Pipeline Company have no direct stake in the union debate, they said. The company has about 3,000 employees in Wisconsin, including workers at a toilet paper factory and gasoline supply terminals. The pending legislation would not directly affect its bottom line.

A balanced budget will benefit Koch Industries and its thousands of employees in Wisconsin no more and no less than the rest of the states private-sector workers and employers, said Jeff Schoepke, a Koch Industries lobbyist in Wisconsin. This is a dispute between public-sector unions and democratically elected officials over how best to serve the public interest.

Certainly, the Koch brothers have long used their wallets to promote fiscal conservatism and combat regulation, another Koch Industries spokesman said Monday.

But the push to curtail union benefits in Wisconsin has been backed by many conservative groups that have no Koch connection, Mr. Phillips noted.

Americans for Prosperity came to Wisconsin more than five years ago and has thousands of members, he said. The state chapter organized buses on Saturday for hundreds of Wisconsin residents to go to the Capitol to support the governors proposals.

This is a Wisconsin movement, said Fred Luber, chief executive of the Supersteel Products Corporation in Milwaukee, who serves on Americans for Prosperitys Wisconsin state advisory board. Obviously, Washington is interested in this. But it is up to us to do.

Political activism is high on the list of priorities for Charles Koch, who in a letter last September to other business leaders and conservatives explained that he saw no other choice.

If not us, who? If not now, when? said the letter, which invited other conservatives to a retreat in January in Rancho Mirage, Calif. It is up to us to combat what is now the greatest assault on American freedom and prosperity in our lifetimes.

Campaign finance records in Washington show that donations by Koch Industries and its employees climbed to a total of $2 million in the last election cycle, twice as much as a decade ago, with 92 percent of that money going to Republicans. Donations in state government races like in Wisconsin have also surged in recent years, records show.

But the most aggressive expansion of the Koch brothers effort to influence public policy has come through the Americans for Prosperity, which runs both a charitable foundation and a grass-roots-activists group. Mr. Phillips serves as president of both branches, and David Koch is chairman of the Americans for Prosperity Foundation.

The grass-roots-activists wing of the organization today has chapters in 32 states, including Wisconsin, and an e-mail list of 1.6 million supporters, said Mary Ellen Burke, a spokeswoman. She would not say how much of last years $40 million budget came from the Koch family, but nationwide donations have come in from 70,000 members, she said, offering it as proof that it has wide support.

The organization has taken up a range of topics, including combating the health care law, environmental regulations and spending by state and federal governments. The effort to impose limits on public labor unions has been a particular focus in Ohio, Indiana, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin, all states with Republican governors, Mr. Phillips said, adding that he expects new proposals to emerge soon in some of those states to limit union power.

To Bob Edgar, a former House Democrat who is now president of Common Cause, a liberal group that has been critical of what it sees as the rising influence of corporate interests in American politics, the Koch brothers are using their money to create a faade of grass-roots support for their favorite causes.

This is a dangerous moment in America history, Mr. Edgar said. It is not that these folks dont have a right to participate in politics. But they are moving democracy into the control of more wealthy corporate hands.

During a demonstration outside the Wisconsin Capitol Monday, one protester made a similar point, holding a sign saying: Gov. Walker: Kick the Koch Habit.

But Mr. Phillips and members of his group and other conservative activists, not surprisingly, see it very differently.

Just as unions organize to fight for their priorities, conservatives are entitled to a voice of their own.

This is a watershed moment in Wisconsin, Mr. Phillips said. For the last two decades, government unions have used their power to drive pensions and benefits and salaries well beyond anything that can be sustained. We are just trying to change that.

Steven Greenhouse contributed reporting from Madison, Wis.


"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
Pack93z
13 years ago

Latest polls not encouraging for Gov. Walker 

By Craig Gilbert of the Journal Sentinel

March 3, 2011 12:24 p.m. |(176) Comments

Theres not a lot of good news for Gov. Scott Walker in the latest batch of state and national polls.

A new one-day Rasmussen Poll of 800 likely voters in Wisconsin Wednesday reports that 39% support weakening the collective bargaining rights of state employees while 52% are opposed.

Rasmussen said that when it asked people whether they are more supportive of Walker or the state Senate Democrats in the debate over how to reduce the state budget deficit, 52% said the Democrats and 44% said the governor.

When it asked people whether they are more supportive of Walker or the public employee unions in the debate over collective bargaining rights, 56% said the unions and 41% said Walker.

Rasmussen, which does automated polls, draws a lot of criticism from Democrats who say its surveys are more favorable to Republicans. But in this case, its conclusions are sobering for Walker.

Governor Scott Walker is struggling in the court of public opinion, but how badly he is struggling depends upon how the issue is presented, Rasmussen reported. (Rasmussen has not yet released its full poll results.)

A new national poll of 1,000 adults Feb. 24-28 by NBC and the Wall Street Journal found broad support for having public employees contribute more of their pay for retirement (68%) and health care (63%) but far less support (33%) for eliminating public employees right to collectively bargain over pension, health care and other benefits (62% were opposed).

Asked if public employees who belong to a union should have the same right to bargain over pension and benefits as union workers for private companies, 77% said yes and 19% said no.

Finally, asked if they had seen, read or heard the news coverage of the protests in Wisconsin, 73% of the adults nationwide that were surveyed in this poll said yes, and 40% said they had seen, read or heard a lot about it.


"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
Pack93z
13 years ago
Why do I think this is going to end badly... I think it great that people are standing up for their perceived rights.. but somehow this is going to become less peaceful and turn ugly.


Demonstrators suddenly enter Capitol 

By Jason Stein of the Journal Sentinel

March 3, 2011 6:04 p.m. |(57) Comments

Madison -- A group of perhaps one hundred protesters has entered the previously restricted and quiet Capitol and is now chanting, Our house, our house.

David Noyce of Madison said that he entered the building with the demonstrators after someone let them in and that a policeman flashed him a thumbs up as he entered. The protesters entered just as Gov. Scott Walker was about to start a news conference in a separate room of the building.

Its about time, Noyce said, when told that a Dane County judge would be issuing an order to open the Capitol.

The protesters have been stopped by phalanx of police on the ground floor of the west wing and prevented from reaching the rotunda and joining the separate group of protesters who have been spending the night in the Capitol.

Both groups of demonstrators are chanting slogans over the police such as This is what democracy looks like, Shame! and We want Walker! Others are making a peace sign with their fingers.


"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
musccy
13 years ago
I agree that the potential for this to get ugly seems to keep escalating...

http://www.channel3000.com/news/27068239/detail.html 


MADISON, Wis. -- Police said they have found live ammunition scattered on the ground around the Wisconsin Capitol.

University of Wisconsin Police Chief Susan Riseling said 41 rounds of .22-caliber ammunition were found Thursday morning scattered at several locations outside the Capitol.

The revelation came as state attorneys asked a Dane County judge to order the Capitol closed for a security sweep. The judge made no immediate ruling on the request.

Authorities said that most of the bullets were found near the State Street entrance to the Capitol and around the King Plaza.

Protesters are in their third week of demonstrations against Gov. Scott Walker's proposal to repeal nearly all collective bargaining rights for most public employee unions. State officials said about 100 protesters remain in the building, which has had limited access since Sunday.

Union attorney Peggy Lautenschlager suggested in court that the ammunition could have been planted by someone other than a protester.

Court testimony continued Thursday on whether state officials overstepped their bounds when they decided to severely limit access to the state Capitol on Monday.

Dane County District Court Judge John Albert said he expects to make a ruling on Capitol access by 4:30 p.m. on Thursday.

Porforis
13 years ago

I myself work for a private college, 5 years and only 1 2% raise, no christmas bonuses, I'm a year-to-year contract and my job as a coach puts me in direct conflict with the public schools daily. In spite of this, I am a fervent supporter of the benefits that the public sector provides society and am appalled by the hatred and misinformation directed towards them right now.

"musccy" wrote:



The reason why I normally try to stay out of politics is because people are so goddamn ZEALOUS in their opinions. It's okay to be passionate about what you believe in, but it seems like the vast majority of people that talk about politics can't do anything but view the world through their own self-serving lens and can't be bothered to try to see things from a different perspective. The far left hates big business. The far right hates unions. People in the middle have much more varying and balanced opinions, but it seems like they do the least amount of talking.
djcubez
13 years ago

I agree that the potential for this to get ugly seems to keep escalating...

http://www.channel3000.com/news/27068239/detail.html 


MADISON, Wis. -- Police said they have found live ammunition scattered on the ground around the Wisconsin Capitol.

University of Wisconsin Police Chief Susan Riseling said 41 rounds of .22-caliber ammunition were found Thursday morning scattered at several locations outside the Capitol.

The revelation came as state attorneys asked a Dane County judge to order the Capitol closed for a security sweep. The judge made no immediate ruling on the request.

Authorities said that most of the bullets were found near the State Street entrance to the Capitol and around the King Plaza.

Protesters are in their third week of demonstrations against Gov. Scott Walker's proposal to repeal nearly all collective bargaining rights for most public employee unions. State officials said about 100 protesters remain in the building, which has had limited access since Sunday.

Union attorney Peggy Lautenschlager suggested in court that the ammunition could have been planted by someone other than a protester.

Court testimony continued Thursday on whether state officials overstepped their bounds when they decided to severely limit access to the state Capitol on Monday.

Dane County District Court Judge John Albert said he expects to make a ruling on Capitol access by 4:30 p.m. on Thursday.

"musccy" wrote:



Remember that phone call interview with Walker? Remember how he didn't seem to have a problem with "planting" violent protesters? Somehow I think this whole "spreading ammunition" is a plot devised by someone to help stop the protesters. Not necessarily by Walker or anyone with political ties. Just someone on his side.

As far as all your stories go about working in the private sector here's one that made me squirm. My sister works at a natural food grocery store. She's been there for a little over a year now. She's been asking for a raise but all of them say they can't give it to her. Now she's training recently hired employees who start off making $0.50 cents more an hour than she does. Her boss still says that can't give her a raise. I know that has nothing to do with this issue, mainly it's just about the economy in general, but in my mind it's severely screwed up.
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