Rockmolder
11 years ago

If Finley would have been cut, they would have likely pursued another via free agency (Dustin Keller, et al.). Best case scenario, those guys would have signed for $4-5 million a year. Rock stated he thinks Keller is better, but that's subjective. He's smaller (6'2), and still not a good blocker. There were/are some other options out there, but the net gain is likely only $2-4 million in savings AT MOST. The $8 million number sounds like a lot, but in order to have any kind of serviceable replacement, the savings would only be a few million for someone that is arguably equally as talented as Finley with "less potential," and that isn't familiar with the Packers system yet. That's assuming they could even sign those players period, or for anything less than $8 million.

I guess I just don't see it as a big of a deal as others. He's likely to be a bit overpaid this year, and will probably be gone next season as Nerd mentioned; either by not having a very good season or breaking out and pricing himself out of Green Bay. As others have mentioned, with Jennings gone there's a reasonable chance he could earn every penny of that $8 million, especially since it's a contract year. If he does have a great season, the money he's getting paid won't be any issue at all. He caught the Packers in a slightly tough spot, and they have to 'eat' $2-3 million for a season and hope he has a great year (which isn't unrealistic, imo).

Originally Posted by: doddpower 



Fair enough. Keller didn't perform admirably last year, but he has been a more reliable receiver than Finley in the years before that.

I think that, if you sign someone in free agency, there's more than enough time to get familiar with a system. Players change teams in FA all the time and just contnue producing the next year. If a guy can join the Patriots offense as a WR and completely grasp what Josh McDaniels wants to do in one off-season, I reckon a TE could get our offense figured out and produce.

Maybe you can't build up a chemistry between the QB and receiver that fast, but that's not something I've seen progressing that well between Finley and Rodgers, either.

As for the potential part... The man has been with our team since 2008. He can't get over his problems with drops, maturity and consistency. I was a huge fan of his when he joined us and, for a reasonable price, I'd still give him a chance, but at $8 million, I just don't like the investment.

Right now, I'd rather have a reliable option who doesn't have that much potential. A guy like Martellus Bennett would've been a nice, all-round TE, who's averaging $5 million a year. Not a difference maker, but a good, solid player. But maybe that's more of a personel preference than one you can blame Finley for.

That saves you "just" $3 million, but that is money you could've invested in a player like Adrian Wilson, Bernard Pollard, Antwan Barnes, Kenny Phillips, Leon Washington, Chris Canty etc.

Yes, that's easy to say in hindsight, but the combined contribution of a more afforable TE, who can't be that big of a drop-off from Finley, with one of those players would've helped us more than just Finley alone.

Of course, we still have some money free under our cap, so cutting Finley isn't something we have to do, but even if we just saved up that $3 million, I feel like rolling that over to next year or using it to restructure Matthews and front-load his contract some more would've helped us more than holding on to Jermike.

Lastly, I'll leave you with this. Blegh.

Most overvalued tight ends in 2012: 

2. Jermichael Finley, Green Bay Packers

2012 Cap Hit: $5.2m
2012 Performance Based Value: $1.0m
Value Differential: -$4.2m

Given that only two players at the position had more drops than Finley’s nine and with his 10.8 yards per catch the lowest of his career, it’s not surprising that he finished the regular season as our 47th-ranked tight end. For a player that offers little in terms of blocking, he has to do better as a receiver to avoid making this list next season, as continued unreliability will have Aaron Rodgers, and maybe the Packers this offseason, looking elsewhere.

Zero2Cool
11 years ago
Jimmy Graham and Aaron Hernandez had more drops than Finley. And the graphic attached shows that after his injury was healed that he was playing through btw ... he improved quite a bit. Keep in mind, there are no stats to show how he stretched the field and opened up the underneath routes for Randall Cobb and other WR. That's probably why you don't give him proper due in that regard. You don't have a number to tie to it.  Untitled25.png You have insufficient rights to see the content.
UserPostedImage
play2win
11 years ago
We need decoy stats!

We just gave him a $3,000,000 bonus for all of 2 TDs in 2012. He dropped more TD passes than he caught! Ach. I'm done talking about him. I hope like hell he has a great year with the Packers and that his season ends with he and the rest of his Packers teammates hoisting the Lombardi Trophy! I'll gladly eat that crow.

We could have added Dashon Goldson at S with that money. This is a classic example of Ted overvaluing his own players to a fault.
Zero2Cool
11 years ago

We need decoy stats!

We just gave him a $3,000,000 bonus for all of 2 TDs in 2012. He dropped more TD passes than he caught! Ach. I'm done talking about him. I hope like hell he has a great year with the Packers and that his season ends with he and the rest of his Packers teammates hoisting the Lombardi Trophy! I'll gladly eat that crow.

We could have added Dashon Goldson at S with that money. This is a classic example of Ted overvaluing his own players to a fault.

Originally Posted by: play2win 



What statistics do you have to support that Jermichael Finley dropped touchdown catches? can you provide game by game stats to support this claim?


Who's to say Goldson would be any more worth the money than Finley? There's a reason free agents are free agents. But I want the stats on the dropped TD passes. That interests me greatly.
UserPostedImage
Rockmolder
11 years ago

Jimmy Graham and Aaron Hernandez had more drops than Finley. And the graphic attached shows that after his injury was healed that he was playing through btw ... he improved quite a bit. Keep in mind, there are no stats to show how he stretched the field and opened up the underneath routes for Randall Cobb and other WR. That's probably why you don't give him proper due in that regard. You don't have a number to tie to it.

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool 



For this statement to make any difference from any other TE in the league, it'd mean he'd have to be double covered or at least have a safety slide over to him.

If that's the big selling point, draft a guy like Chris Gragg on day 3 and we've replaced Finley, already, for less than a million.

Let's not get any stats involved, then.

Did our Offense appear to run smoother when Finley was in? Did Finley show his athleticism by grabbing hard to catch balls out of the air? Did he appear to stretch the field moreso than Nelson, Jennings or Jones? Has he been reliable or trustworthy as a receiver, something I want even more out of my TE than my WR?

No, rarely, rarely, not at all...

I'm still not seeing where he's worth that $8,5 million.
Zero2Cool
11 years ago

For this statement to make any difference from any other TE in the league, it'd mean he'd have to be double covered or at least have a safety slide over to him.

If that's the big selling point, draft a guy like Chris Gragg on day 3 and we've replaced Finley, already, for less than a million.

Let's not get any stats involved, then.

Did our Offense appear to run smoother when Finley was in? Did Finley show his athleticism by grabbing hard to catch balls out of the air? Did he appear to stretch the field moreso than Nelson, Jennings or Jones? Has he been reliable or trustworthy as a receiver, something I want even more out of my TE than my WR?

No, rarely, rarely, not at all...

I'm still not seeing where he's worth that $8,5 million.

Originally Posted by: Rockmolder 



First, you have a heavy bias against Jermichael Finley over gloves, so your take is quite tainted.
Second, yes, $8.5 is too much for Jermichael Finley, as who said several times, oh, that was me.
Finally, what I am also saying is he's not a pile of garbage like some are insinuating and that he's a complete waste of money and Ted Thompson failed in this regard.


UserPostedImage
Rockmolder
11 years ago

First, you have a heavy bias against Jermichael Finley over gloves, so your take is quite tainted.
Second, yes, $8.5 is too much for Jermichael Finley, as who said several times, oh, that was me.
Finally, what I am also saying is he's not a pile of garbage like some are insinuating and that he's a complete waste of money and Ted Thompson failed in this regard.

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool 



Not really. It does add to the view that he's immature and irresponsible to a certain degree, though.

Glad we agree about that, because that's all I'm saying, as well. Had we had him at $3-4 million, I'd be happy. Point I'm trying to make is that, with some simple moves, we could've had a player of the same caliber but at half the price. Not as athletic, but a lot more reliable and consistent.
Zero2Cool
11 years ago

Not really. It does add to the view that he's immature and irresponsible to a certain degree, though.

Glad we agree about that, because that's all I'm saying, as well. Had we had him at $3-4 million, I'd be happy. Point I'm trying to make is that, with some simple moves, we could've had a player of the same caliber but at half the price. Not as athletic, but a lot more reliable and consistent.

Originally Posted by: Rockmolder 



I'd have been fine with the Packers going in with Andrew Quarless as the starter ... assuming he's 100% or will be soon.
UserPostedImage
play2win
11 years ago

What statistics do you have to support that Jermichael Finley dropped touchdown catches? can you provide game by game stats to support this claim?


Who's to say Goldson would be any more worth the money than Finley? There's a reason free agents are free agents. But I want the stats on the dropped TD passes. That interests me greatly.

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool 



No. I based those comments on what I saw last season. I know what I saw. I know he dropped more than two TDs in 2013. If you think differently, it is your prerogative.

http://www.acmepackingcompany.com/2012/10/20/3531586/jermichael-finley-green-bay-packers 

This shows his targets and drops per game:
http://www.fftoday.com/stats/players/2912/Jermichael_Finley 

And, this is Bob McGinn, a person who put plenty of work into evaluating Jermichael Finley, with comments from other pro scouts:
http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/packers-seem-to-be-finished-with-finley-v081e07-183664521.html 

Here, Zero2Cool, my bud... chew on THIS ONE!: 😆
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/te 

Amongst all TEs, Finley only ranks #15 in DYAR, and #18 in DVOA! Unbelievable. 😆 😆 😆
(I laugh because I have no clue what any of that means...)


The whole thing is a value issue, and I think you've already agreed we are on the short end on that one. My opinion is this bonus was money poorly spent, not to mention the year long commitment to him, with a $8.75M cap figure. In essence, we overpaid him greatly, where he would have been hard pressed to get anything close to that in the open market, with his numbers. So, I'm looking at this as akin to a very poor FA signing, by keeping the player on at that figure, rather than outright releasing him.

Again, now all we can do is hope for the best. I don't like what happened there though.
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dfosterf (11h) : For the record, I enjoy Beast and Mucky drafts
Zero2Cool (18h) : Haha
Mucky Tundra (19h) : No time for talking! Back to work beast!
beast (20h) : You saw only 4,201 of my mocks? 🥺 I think that means you missed more than half of them 😢
dfosterf (23h) : Does anyone know what Lambeau field improvements got put on hold? My guess would be for the 2025 draft
Zero2Cool (27-Mar) : It's like listen, you made 4,201 mocks, no shit.
Zero2Cool (27-Mar) : Cuz during the draft "I had them mocked there!" as if it's amazing.
Zero2Cool (27-Mar) : They're fun to do once in awhile. It's people who think they are "content" that annoy me.
dfosterf (27-Mar) : Against tbd
dfosterf (27-Mar) : Answer to your question is yes, it's a Thursday, will be the Chiefs aga
dfosterf (27-Mar) : Luckily for all concerned, I don't post them. I did one, but that was like 25 mocks ago
Zero2Cool (27-Mar) : NFL 2024 gonna start Sept 5th isn't it???
Zero2Cool (27-Mar) : Ugh... kids these days!
dfosterf (27-Mar) : I'm gonna go do some more mock draft hell instead 🤪
Zero2Cool (27-Mar) : Did we do one of those prediction threads yet for 2024 season?
dfosterf (27-Mar) : In my city, they are playing the nimby game, in order to keep some railroad tracks vs. 2 professional sports teams and a concert venue.
dfosterf (27-Mar) : And/Or a city council, of which I haven't seen a good one in a very long time
dfosterf (27-Mar) : That sounds like a Mayor, not a city.
buckeyepackfan (26-Mar) : Packers halt scheduled 80mil upgrade of stadium until lease agreement talks are restarted
Zero2Cool (26-Mar) : City of Green Bay puts Packers' Lambeau Field lease talks on hold
buckeyepackfan (26-Mar) : Packers 1 of 3 teams to vote no on new kickoff rule.
Zero2Cool (26-Mar) : Packers sign another Kicker
dfosterf (26-Mar) : Lengthy explanation at PFF if you click the link
dfosterf (26-Mar) : Kickoff rules officially changed.ngthy explan
Zero2Cool (26-Mar) : lol
Cheesey (26-Mar) : 2009? No thanks! One open heart surgery is enough!
dfosterf (26-Mar) : Good for you!
Zero2Cool (26-Mar) : Yes. That's the one.
dfosterf (26-Mar) : Is that "Lady Dugan" per chance?
dfosterf (26-Mar) : Crystal?
dfosterf (26-Mar) : Please refresh my memory
Zero2Cool (26-Mar) : Alan posts. Crystal back in my life. It's 2009 all over again! Lol
Mucky Tundra (26-Mar) : BAH GAWD! THAT'S CHEESEYS MUSIC!
Zero2Cool (25-Mar) : Gutekunst said early stages of Jordan Love contract being discussed.
Zero2Cool (25-Mar) : Shouldn't be penalized cuz official screwed up
Zero2Cool (25-Mar) : Yeah, challenge until you are incorrect twice.
Zero2Cool (25-Mar) : Fining them is the goal, per the people who made the rule anyway.
dfosterf (25-Mar) : Still waiting on the kickoff rule changes. Did hear yesterday that the touchback proposal will now be the 30 yard line, not the 35
dfosterf (25-Mar) : Probably speed of game issues with your proposal
dfosterf (25-Mar) : Hopefully the refs don't get in the habit of throwing flags on this
beast (25-Mar) : I think when it comes to Challenges should get two strikes, so unlimited challenges as long as they keep winning them, but 2 wrong then done
dfosterf (25-Mar) : Still subject to the fines etc
dfosterf (25-Mar) : Yes, I should have been more specific. Also, they are now saying it would be a 15 yard penalty. That makes more sense .
beast (25-Mar) : Simply fined in the week to follow
beast (25-Mar) : I agree with one NFL official, it'll probably be like some of the helmets hits, not really called by the refs on the field but simply fined
Zero2Cool (25-Mar) : Hip drop is not. Super confusing. Referees job is harder
Zero2Cool (25-Mar) : Swivel hip drop is banned
dfosterf (25-Mar) : The hip drop enforcement will be in the form of fines, etc. Not flags
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