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Offline MintBaconDrivel  
#1 Posted : Tuesday, April 23, 2013 2:56:53 PM(UTC)
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JerseyAl wrote:
An interesting discussion about the Packers draft and develop philosophy broke out in the comments section of this post the other day. The basic question that came out of the discussion was this: What does draft and develop mean to you? Draft and develop might mean different things to different people. The various meanings appear [...]
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Offline PackerTraxx  
#2 Posted : Tuesday, April 23, 2013 4:25:59 PM(UTC)
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It means you better have good coaches. Eh? Angel
Why is Jerry Kramer not in the Hall of Fame?
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Offline wpr  
#3 Posted : Tuesday, April 23, 2013 4:33:26 PM(UTC)
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It means it is an excuse to not sign quality FAs to round out the team and fill in holes that normally occur in the roster.
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Offline steveishere  
#4 Posted : Tuesday, April 23, 2013 5:42:49 PM(UTC)
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It means you trust that you drafted quality players who will still become good football players even if they don't make a huge impact in the first year or two.
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nerdmann on 4/23/2013(UTC)
Offline TheKanataThrilla  
#5 Posted : Tuesday, April 23, 2013 6:10:03 PM(UTC)
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To me it keeps the philosophy that if you work hard and stay loyal the team will reward you. I do think that this philosophy works for the most part in that it makes for greater morale from the players that the team is not always looking for FAs to take your job.
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Offline nerdmann  
#6 Posted : Tuesday, April 23, 2013 9:09:10 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: TheKanataThrilla Go to Quoted Post
To me it keeps the philosophy that if you work hard and stay loyal the team will reward you. I do think that this philosophy works for the most part in that it makes for greater morale from the players that the team is not always looking for FAs to take your job.


This and it also means you have a viable team for the long term, because you don't subject yourself to cap hell.
“Winning is not a sometime thing, it is an all the time thing. You don't do things right once in a while…you do them right all the time.”
Offline PackFanWithTwins  
#7 Posted : Tuesday, April 23, 2013 10:17:44 PM(UTC)
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A way to build and maintain a core of players. Hopefully successfully which keeps a team in contention year after year. Combine it with smart and well timed FA and some luck and we can win another SB.
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Offline play2win  
#8 Posted : Wednesday, April 24, 2013 6:37:35 AM(UTC)
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I don't like how strict this philosophy is. It means there is more pressure put on young, inexperienced players to fill important gaps in our roster, and the "need" factor then becomes more in play on draft day. At least, it seems that way.

Will we pass on a top WR to fill a DL need this draft in R1? Maybe. Maybe not. Nab that WR and your DL need is still unaddressed going into the 2nd day of the draft. Now, you maybe reach on a day two player to fill a hole, hoping he will not only start, but be a difference maker, where you really need one.

There is risk with this philosophy that could make us miss out on top talent, both in FA and in the draft.
thanks Post received 2 applause.
yooperfan on 4/24/2013(UTC), Wade on 4/25/2013(UTC)
Offline PackerTraxx  
#9 Posted : Wednesday, April 24, 2013 7:23:21 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: wpr Go to Quoted Post
It means it is an excuse to not sign quality FAs to round out the team and fill in holes that normally occur in the roster.


Hopefully this is not true. In a couple of cases, I'm sorry to say, I believe it has been. I like building on the draft as a basic philosiphy, but all avenues need to be used to build/better the team.
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Offline wpr  
#10 Posted : Wednesday, April 24, 2013 7:45:11 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: PackerTraxx Go to Quoted Post
Hopefully this is not true. In a couple of cases, I'm sorry to say, I believe it has been. I like building on the draft as a basic philosiphy, but all avenues need to be used to build/better the team.


I was being just a bit of a smart @ss. But there are times when it seems like the team fails to use every method available to them because they are a "draft and develop" team.

It is really impossible to have every spot on the roster filled with depth backing up all the starters. Sometimes it is better to have the drafted players backing up and one day taking the place of a UFA that they signed.

Then again I have wondered if GB is content with winning the division and being in the playoffs on a consistent basis or spending more money and being a serious contender for a SB.

I could live with a team that was in the SB every 5 years and then had to tear the team down and rebuilt making it back 5 years later over a team that went 11-5 or 10-6 every single year, year after year, only to lose in the playoffs in either round 1 or 2.
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thanks Post received 2 applause.
play2win on 4/24/2013(UTC), Wade on 4/25/2013(UTC)
Offline nerdmann  
#11 Posted : Wednesday, April 24, 2013 10:54:13 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: play2win Go to Quoted Post
I don't like how strict this philosophy is. It means there is more pressure put on young, inexperienced players to fill important gaps in our roster, and the "need" factor then becomes more in play on draft day. At least, it seems that way.

Will we pass on a top WR to fill a DL need this draft in R1? Maybe. Maybe not. Nab that WR and your DL need is still unaddressed going into the 2nd day of the draft. Now, you maybe reach on a day two player to fill a hole, hoping he will not only start, but be a difference maker, where you really need one.

There is risk with this philosophy that could make us miss out on top talent, both in FA and in the draft.


For every Albert Haynesworth that Ted passes over, he signs a DuJuan Harris, Dez Moses, Sam Shields. Even an Erik Walden or a Harold Green. Part of the system is that you have great talent evaluators, who are capable of assessing value.
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Offline Wade  
#12 Posted : Thursday, April 25, 2013 9:01:44 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: wpr Go to Quoted Post
I was being just a bit of a smart @ss. But there are times when it seems like the team fails to use every method available to them because they are a "draft and develop" team.

It is really impossible to have every spot on the roster filled with depth backing up all the starters. Sometimes it is better to have the drafted players backing up and one day taking the place of a UFA that they signed.

Then again I have wondered if GB is content with winning the division and being in the playoffs on a consistent basis or spending more money and being a serious contender for a SB.

I could live with a team that was in the SB every 5 years and then had to tear the team down and rebuilt making it back 5 years later over a team that went 11-5 or 10-6 every single year, year after year, only to lose in the playoffs in either round 1 or 2.


I agree. I *hate* it when the team loses playoff games.

Especially at home. Remember when the Packers simply did not lose in the playoffs at home?

Actually, I wonder if there is some correlation between this overly (IMO) skewed reliance on draft-and-develop-the-potential approach and the Packers less than stellar "home field advantage" in the Thompson/McCarthy era.

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Offline Wade  
#13 Posted : Thursday, April 25, 2013 9:03:48 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: nerdmann Go to Quoted Post
For every Albert Haynesworth that Ted passes over, he signs a DuJuan Harris, Dez Moses, Sam Shields. Even an Erik Walden or a Harold Green. Part of the system is that you have great talent evaluators, who are capable of assessing value.


Except, in my opinion, with respect to the OL.

Take away the out-of-the-park-HR that was Josh Sitton, and this personnel department can only seem to find "potential" and "serviceable" on the OL.

And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
Offline Zero2Cool  
#14 Posted : Thursday, April 25, 2013 9:32:14 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Wade Go to Quoted Post
Except, in my opinion, with respect to the OL.

Take away the out-of-the-park-HR that was Josh Sitton, and this personnel department can only seem to find "potential" and "serviceable" on the OL.



I will continue to put blame on the OL coach instead of Ted Thompson. Packers have drafted a lot of OL over the years ... a lot.
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Offline steveishere  
#15 Posted : Thursday, April 25, 2013 10:01:29 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: wpr Go to Quoted Post

I could live with a team that was in the SB every 5 years and then had to tear the team down and rebuilt making it back 5 years later over a team that went 11-5 or 10-6 every single year, year after year, only to lose in the playoffs in either round 1 or 2.


Except that isn't how it works and no you wouldn't be content with that anyways. Look at all of the people who are discontent now because we haven't won the Superbowl in just 2 years. The teams that have the best chance at winning the Superbowl are the ones that are more consistent with their roster and stay competitive year after year. It does take a lot of luck to get through a playoff run and win the Superbowl and trying to bet it all on 1 season every few years is the dumbest way to go about it.
Offline play2win  
#16 Posted : Thursday, April 25, 2013 10:34:29 AM(UTC)
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Breno Giacomini would have been good to keep around. I do not understand how they could let a guy like that walk. He is exactly what we could use now. Started all 16 games at RT last year for the Seahawks. We could be switching Bulaga to LT and save a pick there.
Offline wpr  
#17 Posted : Thursday, April 25, 2013 10:44:03 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: steveishere Go to Quoted Post
Except that isn't how it works and no you wouldn't be content with that anyways. Look at all of the people who are discontent now because we haven't won the Superbowl in just 2 years. The teams that have the best chance at winning the Superbowl are the ones that are more consistent with their roster and stay competitive year after year. It does take a lot of luck to get through a playoff run and win the Superbowl and trying to bet it all on 1 season every few years is the dumbest way to go about it.


Thank you for telling me how I feel. Until reading this I did not know. Face. Palm.

I am content. Would I like a SB this year? Sure. Who wouldn't? Do I demand it or think that the team is a failure? No. Am I disappointed at the lack of effort to pick up QUALITY FAs to fill some of those needs? Sure I am.

Of course my "5 year plan" doesn't work exactly as I illustrated. It is only a hypothetical example. They need to go get the guys required to fill the gaps are there and stop trying to use bubble gum and duct tape. Waiting 2, 3 or 4 years for someone to grow up and fill a position only leads to more holes elsewhere during that time period.

Once again you totally miss the point. I am not saying go "Phillie" and grab 12 high priced FAs this year then sit back and dismantle the team next year. I said pick up a QUALITY player or two to fill a gap. (every team has them.) Become a playoff winning caliber team not a team that only wins against weak competition during the season then folds when the pressure is on. In my example I am saying if the worse case scenario is that you end up with 4 off years and one SB winning championship year and that cycle repeats every 5 years WITH CHAMPIONSHIPS the fans would except it. even you. In reality why would a team totally fall apart? It wouldn't.
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thanks Post received 2 applause.
play2win on 4/25/2013(UTC), Wade on 4/25/2013(UTC)
Offline Zero2Cool  
#18 Posted : Thursday, April 25, 2013 11:25:19 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: wpr Go to Quoted Post
I said pick up a QUALITY player or two to fill a gap. (every team has them.)


Problem with that is the Packers aren't a player or two away from being a certain Super Bowl contender. They can't afford to gamble over paying for tier 2 talent with a tier 1 salary because they have quite a few players to re-sign themselves. It's easier to groom a new to NFL player to your methods and teachings than it is to grab a player that's been in a different system for X years. You then have to break them of their habits.

I don't think free agency yields enough reward for the risk.

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Offline play2win  
#19 Posted : Thursday, April 25, 2013 11:35:02 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool Go to Quoted Post
Problem with that is the Packers aren't a player or two away from being a certain Super Bowl contender. They can't afford to gamble over paying for tier 2 talent with a tier 1 salary because they have quite a few players to re-sign themselves. It's easier to groom a new to NFL player to your methods and teachings than it is to grab a player that's been in a different system for X years. You then have to break them of their habits.

I don't think free agency yields enough reward for the risk.



I don't think he is saying they are only one or two players away from winning a Championship, just that one or two FAs of high quality can help you to get there, taking pressure off of key areas that you normally fill with draft picks. For instance, we had a couple of scenarios where we had high calibre DTs, DEs, RBs and Ss looking for a new team this offseason. We didn't really play, so they went elsewhere. I would have loved to get one of them, maybe two of them, to allow a bit more freedom this draft, insuring our roster was truly complete.

We have so many holes, some bigger than others at some real need positions on this roster. One or two FA signings could have helped. They still may.
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wpr on 4/25/2013(UTC)
Offline Wade  
#20 Posted : Thursday, April 25, 2013 11:44:16 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: play2win Go to Quoted Post
Breno Giacomini would have been good to keep around. I do not understand how they could let a guy like that walk. He is exactly what we could use now. Started all 16 games at RT last year for the Seahawks. We could be switching Bulaga to LT and save a pick there.


Methinks you may be committing the Daryl Colledge fallacy here. Colledge has started how many games in his career. How many games has he looked, for GB or for St. Louis, like a *good* starter.

Seattle looked good last year. How good did Giacomini look? Did he look more like Daryn Colledge in his "prime," or did he look more like, oh, I dunno, Steve Hutchinson or Alan Faneca in theirs.

Or, perhaps a better example, how much did he look like a Sitton and how much did he look like Colledge?

(As an aside, I don't think Bulaga has proved himself an exception to the general level of mediocrity in the Thompson/McCarthy/Campen era just yet. He might. The "potential" argument still has enough oomph it it for me to be cautiously optimistic. But he's not where we need a RT, much less a LT, to be just yet.)

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Offline play2win  
#21 Posted : Thursday, April 25, 2013 11:57:09 AM(UTC)
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Bulaga is a great RT. No question. It is really too bad he injured his hip, but I think he'll return to play well again there. I think he's a top rated OT, somewhere in the top 10 in the NFL. I know Giacomini isn't in the top 20. However, he would have been a decent backup to hang onto. Is Giacomini better than Don Barclay? I don't know. I didn't mean to sound like Giacomini was the second coming... my bad Wade!
Offline Zero2Cool  
#22 Posted : Thursday, April 25, 2013 11:59:01 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: play2win Go to Quoted Post
I don't think he is saying they are only one or two players away from winning a Championship, just that one or two FAs of high quality can help you to get there, taking pressure off of key areas that you normally fill with draft picks. For instance, we had a couple of scenarios where we had high calibre DTs, DEs, RBs and Ss looking for a new team this offseason. We didn't really play, so they went elsewhere. I would have loved to get one of them, maybe two of them, to allow a bit more freedom this draft, insuring our roster was truly complete.

We have so many holes, some bigger than others at some real need positions on this roster. One or two FA signings could have helped. They still may.


What free agent fits the Packers scheme and signed for a price that fits in the Packers salary cap? I'm all for improving the roster. I just don't see any players that could have been signed that would have made a different without overpaying them more than I feel players already are.
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Offline play2win  
#23 Posted : Thursday, April 25, 2013 12:21:48 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool Go to Quoted Post
What free agent fits the Packers scheme and signed for a price that fits in the Packers salary cap? I'm all for improving the roster. I just don't see any players that could have been signed that would have made a different without overpaying them more than I feel players already are.


I think Steven Jackson was a bargain compared to Brad Jones. I think SJax will be a force with ATL this year, and so does ATL. Cullen Jenkns fit our needs perfectly and we didn't even offer... Osi Umenyiora would have made a difference, two years at $8.5M (that's in the Brad Jones ballpark, remarkably). Alan Branch was SUPER affordable as a rotation NT for $3M. Marcus Spears, a perfect fit for our scheme at $3.5M. Somehow the Ravens didn't stop at Spears, but also signed Chris Canty, the same Chris Canty who couldn't pass our physical, at less than $3M per year. I wonder about that...

Pick any two of these players, and our roster is better. Pre draft.

Hmmm, Brad Jones or Osi Umenyiora...? But, but, Brad Jones falls under the "Draft & Develop" umbrella.

I don't know Zero2Cool. The policy, and it sure seems like a hard line policy, seems just too strict for my liking. In building out a roster, there ought to be balance, and this is one area where I think we have little. our team is ALWAYS so damn young. That inexperience can provide for costly mistakes. Some of these mistakes we cannot afford during Rodgers' prime. We shouldn't allow ourselves to afford that during Rodgers' prime. We should maximize our opportunities. Sprinkle a couple of quality vets in there. It wouldn't hurt.
Offline nerdmann  
#24 Posted : Thursday, April 25, 2013 12:29:57 PM(UTC)
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I DO believe we are 1 or 2 players from the Superbowl. In fact, if we didn't go out of our way to shit ourselves in the playoffs I'd have liked our chances the last two years.

That said, I DON'T want Ted to splurge on big named free agents. Fuck that shit.
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Offline play2win  
#25 Posted : Thursday, April 25, 2013 12:31:32 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: nerdmann Go to Quoted Post
I DO believe we are 1 or 2 players from the Superbowl. In fact, if we didn't go out of our way to shit ourselves in the playoffs I'd have liked our chances the last two years.

That said, I DON'T want Ted to splurge on big named free agents. Fuck that shit.


But, it's OK to splurge on Brad Fucking Jones?
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