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Offline Dexter_Sinister  
#61 Posted : Saturday, June 22, 2013 10:36:35 PM(UTC)

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This is my ranking by how good they were compared to the NFL average for their careers.
Sid is over 25 above average
The Mr Average award goes to John Hadl. He was the most average QB in the history of the NFL. He did set 1 record though.

Most tie games.

Rank Quarterback QBPRD
1 Sid Luckman+ 25.80
2 Sammy Baugh+ 22.02
3 Otto Graham+ 22.00
4 Aaron Rodgers  21.78
5 Steve Young+ 20.55
6 Roger Staubach+ 17.75
7 Joe Montana+ 17.40
8 Tommy Thompson 17.30
9 Norm Van Brocklin+ 16.00
10 Len Dawson+ 15.55
11 Sonny Jurgensen+ 15.47
12 Tom Brady 14.82
13 Peyton Manning  14.47
14 George Ratterman 13.81
15 Bart Starr+ 13.46
16 Kurt Warner 13.43
17 Fran Tarkenton+ 13.28
18 Ken Anderson 12.73
19 Tony Romo 12.51
20 Drew Brees 12.22
21 Philip Rivers 11.41
22 Johnny Unitas+ 11.32
23 Y.A. Tittle+ 11.19
24 Bob Griese+ 10.57
25 Bob Berry 10.41
26 Bert Jones 10.34
27 Dan Marino+ 10.18
28 Danny White 10.03
29 Dan Fouts+ 9.97
30 Ben Roethlisberger 9.61
31 Frank Ryan 9.32
32 Chad Pennington 8.85
33 Matt Schaub 8.81
34 Neil Lomax 8.44
35 Jim Kelly+ 8.25
36 Charlie Conerly 7.99
37 Joe Theismann 7.46
38 Earl Morrall 7.40
39 Daunte Culpepper 7.35
40 Rich Gannon 7.24
41 Ken Stabler 7.11
42 Jeff Garcia 7.05
43 Roman Gabriel 6.90
44 Arnie Herber+ 6.77
45 Bob Waterfield+ 6.63
46 Brett Favre 6.55
47 Matt Ryan 6.52
48 Trent Green 6.25
49 Billy Wade 6.15
50 Bernie Kosar 5.87
51 Brian Sipe 5.84
52 Bobby Thomason 5.80
53 Craig Morton 5.80
54 Dave Krieg 5.76
55 Don Meredith 5.68
56 Daryle Lamonica 5.19
57 Ken O'Brien 5.11
58 Boomer Esiason 5.06
59 Randall Cunningham 5.01
60 John Brodie 4.99
61 Gary Danielson 4.93
62 Steve Bartkowski 4.63
63 Bill Munson 4.63
64 Tony Eason 4.61
65 Warren Moon+ 4.55
66 Greg Landry 4.48
67 Donovan McNabb 4.48
68 Billy Kilmer 4.48
69 Jeff Hostetler 4.47
70 Troy Aikman+ 4.43
71 Neil O'Donnell 4.08
72 Milt Plum 3.97
73 Glenn Dobbs 3.93
74 Phil Simms 3.83
75 Mark Brunell 3.75
76 John Elway+ 3.73
77 David Garrard 3.71
78 Steve McNair 3.58
79 Terry Bradshaw+ 3.27
80 Carson Palmer 3.11
81 Brad Johnson 3.07
82 Steve Beuerlein 3.04
83 Marc Bulger 3.00
84 Jeff George 2.98
85 Shaun Hill 2.78
86 Bill Kenney 2.76
87 Brian Griese 2.72
88 Jim McMahon 2.43
89 Jim Everett 2.37
90 Bobby Layne+ 2.36
91 Bobby Hebert 2.07
92 Lynn Dickey 4.95
93 Mark Rypien 1.94
94 Joe Flacco 1.92
95 Bill Nelsen 1.86
96 Ron Jaworski 1.73
97 James Harris 1.65
98 Elvis Grbac 1.65
99 Chris Chandler 1.51
100 Charley Johnson 1.50


thanks Post received 1 applause.
porky88 on 6/23/2013(UTC)
Offline Dexter_Sinister  
#62 Posted : Saturday, June 22, 2013 10:53:38 PM(UTC)

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texaspackerbacker said: Go to Quoted Post
OK, I'll bite since I seem to be the primary one saying Favre is the greatest of all time. Anything I say is prefaced by the fact it's kinda an educated gut feeling - I am too lazy to dig and get exact stats, etc.

I consider Tarkenton to be very high on the list of all time greats, along with Dan Marino. As for Otto Graham, he is at the outer limit of my memory - he was at the end of his career when I was first old enough to be conscious of football. My impression of Graham, though, is that his career didn't last all that long - he was a truly outstanding QB, but much like Namath, didn't pass the test of longevity. Staubach also was really excellent, but had a relatively short career.

Yeah, stats are important, but selectively - Career Totals trump percentages, ratings, even playoff performances.

Bart Starr deserves special recognition, but as much as I respect one of my childhood heroes, consideration of him is tempered slightly by the fact that he had more talent surrounding him than just about anybody ever, and the fact that in his time "playoffs" consisted of one game, then two when the Super Bowl era began.



So Vinny Testeverdy is a great QB. Top 10 all time?

Drew Bledsoe, Warren Moon, Kerry Collins.

That is a list of players with top 10 or near top 10 total stats.

Heck John Hadl is 17th all time for TDs. He is the most average QB in the history of the NFL.

Dave Kreig is 12th.

Steve DeBerg is almost tied with Troy Aikman in passes completed and yards. Kerry Collins is above Joe Montana.

If you want to win games, do you want a player who was average for 20 years or a player who was the best ever for 15?



Offline porky88  
#63 Posted : Sunday, June 23, 2013 12:37:19 AM(UTC)

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Dexter_Sinister said: Go to Quoted Post
This is my ranking by how good they were compared to the NFL average for their careers.

Stats can be helpful in analyzing players, especially from previous eras where there’s a lack of film. However, you’re glorifying stats and particularly the QB rating, which in itself is flawed. Therefore, the formula you are using to reach your conclusions is using a flawed stat. The QB rating emphasizes completion percentage. The problem with that is going 3 for 3 for 8 yards gives you a better rating than 1 for 3 for 25 yards. This is why Chad Pennington ranks above Brett Favre, John Elway, and Warren Moon. Pennington didn’t have the arm to stretch the field. Defenses happily gave up the short to intermediate completions. They literally let him have that play. They didn’t care. There’s no skill in that whatsoever. It led to a pretty good QB rating, but his teammates had to pickup the slack. This is just one of a number of problems with the QB rating, which is central to your argument.

Your formula seems to be an attempt at an all-time list. You deserve credit for putting in that work. However, all-time lists are trivial and really have nothing to do with the evaluation of a player. No matter how you slice it, such a list is based upon subjective viewpoints.
Offline texaspackerbacker  
#64 Posted : Sunday, June 23, 2013 4:45:46 AM(UTC)

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Dexter, your list above is LAUGHABLE. This whole discussion is STUPID. YOU should be ashamed to call yourself a Packer fan.

BRETT FAVRE IS THE GREATEST QUARTERBACK/THE GREATEST PLAYER IN NFL HISTORY. HE WILL BE THAT UNTIL GOD-WILLING, AARON RODGERS SURPASSES HIM.

Everything else here is irrelevant bullshit. Case closed, end of discussion - something I almost never do, I hereby stop reading or discussing the topic.
Offline buckeyepackfan  
#65 Posted : Sunday, June 23, 2013 5:23:13 AM(UTC)

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After going through 5 pages of opinions, I have come to the conclusion that once again Brett Favre has came out on top.

Brett is clearly the Top overrated and the Top underrated Packer of all time!!!
Depending on who you believe.

ONLY BRETT FAVRE COULD BE #1 IN BOTH CATEGORIES!!!!

Way to go Brett!!!!!!!



Offline Zero2Cool  
#66 Posted : Sunday, June 23, 2013 6:12:54 AM(UTC)

Yahoo! NCAA March Madness - Gold: 2015Yahoo! Fantasy Football - Gold: 2009FleaFlicker Fantasy Football - Silver: 2010Yahoo! NCAA March Madness - Silver: 2011ESPN NCAA March Madness - Bronze: 2010Yahoo! NCAA March Madness - Bronze: 2013

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buckeyepackfan said: Go to Quoted Post
After going through 5 pages of opinions, I have come to the conclusion that once again Brett Favre has came out on top.

Brett is clearly the Top overrated and the Top underrated Packer of all time!!!
Depending on who you believe.

ONLY BRETT FAVRE COULD BE #1 IN BOTH CATEGORIES!!!!

Way to go Brett!!!!!!!





Fitting as it may be as he does have the most Touchdowns AND most Interceptions ... would one expect anything less?
Offline nerdmann  
#67 Posted : Sunday, June 23, 2013 10:48:35 AM(UTC)

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texaspackerbacker said: Go to Quoted Post
Dexter, your list above is LAUGHABLE. This whole discussion is STUPID. YOU should be ashamed to call yourself a Packer fan.

BRETT FAVRE IS THE GREATEST QUARTERBACK/THE GREATEST PLAYER IN NFL HISTORY. HE WILL BE THAT UNTIL GOD-WILLING, AARON RODGERS SURPASSES HIM.

Everything else here is irrelevant bullshit. Case closed, end of discussion - something I almost never do, I hereby stop reading or discussing the topic.


Keep clicking those ruby slippers together.
thanks Post received 1 applause.
Dexter_Sinister on 6/23/2013(UTC)
Offline earthquake  
#68 Posted : Sunday, June 23, 2013 11:34:20 AM(UTC)

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texaspackerbacker said: Go to Quoted Post
Dexter, your list above is LAUGHABLE. This whole discussion is STUPID. YOU should be ashamed to call yourself a Packer fan.

BRETT FAVRE IS THE GREATEST QUARTERBACK/THE GREATEST PLAYER IN NFL HISTORY. HE WILL BE THAT UNTIL GOD-WILLING, AARON RODGERS SURPASSES HIM.

Everything else here is irrelevant bullshit. Case closed, end of discussion - something I almost never do, I hereby stop reading or discussing the topic.


I have to say this is a really childish response. "Don't agree with me? FU, I'll take my football and go home." What are you, 12 years old?

You've yet to provide an argument as to why Favre is the greatest ever, other than "Favre is the greatest ever, because he is!". Again, what has he done that would put him over someone like Joe Montana? Favre played in more games and missed less games due to injury, which is in itself very impressive, but thats it. Montana accomplished much more in his shorter career.

Its hugely disrespectful to discount the effort of others here who at least bothered to give some supporting evidence (even if you disagree with the outcome or method) when you're too lazy to do any research or even provide a compelling, rational argument.

You put others down for emotions clouding judgement (ie, due to the last few years of his career), however, its clear that you yourself can not come even close to separating your emotional attachment of Favre from reality.
Offline Bigbyfan  
#69 Posted : Sunday, June 23, 2013 12:05:33 PM(UTC)

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This had the potential to be a very entertaining thread, but then I saw the last 4 pages were completely taken over by the never ending "Favre argument."

Back to the original question, I'm only going to use players that I have had the pleasure to watch (a little over 20 years).

Overrated: Cullen Jenkins - he was a beast the last few years in Green Bay, when he was healthy. Emphasis on "when he was healthy." He really couldn't be counted on for an entire season. The only reason I put him as overrated is due to pretty much everyone, sometimes myself included, bitching about Ted Thompson not shelling out the cash to resign him and how different our team would have been with him. Giving a big money deal to a 30 year old defensive lineman is not a good business move. I'm also willing to bet he would not have accepted the same deal the Eagles gave him if the Packers offered it to him. That probably had more to do with joining the "Dream Team" and chasing another title.

Underrated: William Henderson - He isn't underrated by most Packer fans, but IMO, is underrated by most football fans. He had the ability to do it all. He could run for some short yardage, catch the ball, and both run and pass block. He was a leader in the locker room. His longevity was also a big plus. He never played less than 14 games in a single season.
thanks Post received 2 applause.
buckeyepackfan on 6/23/2013(UTC), DakotaT on 6/23/2013(UTC)
User is suspended until 7/18/2016 1:25:29 AM(UTC) DakotaT  
#70 Posted : Sunday, June 23, 2013 1:03:15 PM(UTC)

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texaspackerbacker said: Go to Quoted Post
Dexter, your list above is LAUGHABLE. This whole discussion is STUPID. YOU should be ashamed to call yourself a Packer fan.

BRETT FAVRE IS THE GREATEST QUARTERBACK/THE GREATEST PLAYER IN NFL HISTORY. HE WILL BE THAT UNTIL GOD-WILLING, AARON RODGERS SURPASSES HIM.

Everything else here is irrelevant bullshit. Case closed, end of discussion - something I almost never do, I hereby stop reading or discussing the topic.


Pussy! Dex just cleaned your clock and you run like a little girl, excuse last word freak little girl. [laughing]
Offline texaspackerbacker  
#71 Posted : Sunday, June 23, 2013 3:15:57 PM(UTC)

Yahoo! NCAA March Madness - Gold: 2014Yahoo! NCAA March Madness - Silver: 2015

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DakotaT said: Go to Quoted Post
Pussy! Dex just cleaned your clock and you run like a little girl, excuse last word freak little girl. [laughing]


I borrowed that last line from you, Dakota hahahahaha.

These other sick trolls just seem to get off on their Favre hate. I didn't think you swung that way, though, Dakota. You may be a loon in politics, but you're usually pretty sensible when it comes to football.

Offline dfosterf  
#72 Posted : Sunday, June 23, 2013 3:19:16 PM(UTC)

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DakotaT said: Go to Quoted Post
Pussy! Dex just cleaned your clock and you run like a little girl, excuse last word freak little girl. [laughing]




Well, it's an actual GBP football discussion, vs apple/oranges off-season stuff. I suspect Texas will do just fine in the GBP arena.

What did he do? Attack Dakota on a personal level at some point?


Get the fuck over it you crybaby bitch, the man has things to say, and your fucking whining is INTERRUPTING them. I want to hear what he has to say without your commie bitchin'.

imo
User is suspended until 7/18/2016 1:25:29 AM(UTC) DakotaT  
#73 Posted : Sunday, June 23, 2013 3:55:50 PM(UTC)

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dfosterf said: Go to Quoted Post
Well, it's an actual GBP football discussion, vs apple/oranges off-season stuff. I suspect Texas will do just fine in the GBP arena.

What did he do? Attack Dakota on a personal level at some point?


Get the fuck over it you crybaby bitch, the man has things to say, and your fucking whining is INTERRUPTING them. I want to hear what he has to say without your commie bitchin'.

imo


Fuck you, old grouchy bastard. All Texas ever has to say is Liberals this and that. Brett Favre is the greatest - no reasons why - just take his word for it. Texas has spread a really wide wake in all forums and if these guys want to rip him an asshole, I think it is funny. That OK with you?
User is suspended until 7/18/2016 1:25:29 AM(UTC) DakotaT  
#74 Posted : Sunday, June 23, 2013 4:04:43 PM(UTC)

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texaspackerbacker said: Go to Quoted Post
I borrowed that last line from you, Dakota hahahahaha.

These other sick trolls just seem to get off on their Favre hate. I didn't think you swung that way, though, Dakota. You may be a loon in politics, but you're usually pretty sensible when it comes to football.



All you have is calling people un-American, loons, or whatever shit you spew just because they don't agree with you. It really is sad that you believe the America that you grew up in was the pinnacle of civilization. That era really sucked for minorities, but hey, they made good servants.

When we talk about Favre, with the exception of his three MVP years, he really was a choke artist because he lacked the discipline to become one of the greats. But you go ahead and believe what you think is "right".
Offline Dexter_Sinister  
#75 Posted : Sunday, June 23, 2013 5:00:23 PM(UTC)

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porky88 said: Go to Quoted Post
Stats can be helpful in analyzing players, especially from previous eras where there’s a lack of film. However, you’re glorifying stats and particularly the QB rating, which in itself is flawed. Therefore, the formula you are using to reach your conclusions is using a flawed stat. The QB rating emphasizes completion percentage. The problem with that is going 3 for 3 for 8 yards gives you a better rating than 1 for 3 for 25 yards. This is why Chad Pennington ranks above Brett Favre, John Elway, and Warren Moon. Pennington didn’t have the arm to stretch the field. Defenses happily gave up the short to intermediate completions. They literally let him have that play. They didn’t care. There’s no skill in that whatsoever. It led to a pretty good QB rating, but his teammates had to pickup the slack. This is just one of a number of problems with the QB rating, which is central to your argument.

Your formula seems to be an attempt at an all-time list. You deserve credit for putting in that work. However, all-time lists are trivial and really have nothing to do with the evaluation of a player. No matter how you slice it, such a list is based upon subjective viewpoints.


Yards per attempt matters. So 8 yards in 3 attempts is not better than 25 yards in 3 attempts.

The passer rating is not a stat. It is a combination of ratios of several different stats weighted for importance.

It is essentially
Completion %
Yards per attempt
TD %
INT %

But not in equal amounts.

What it tells you is how efficient a QB is. A great arm like Cutler and Jeff George doesn't mean much if they struggle to complete passes 10+ yards down field. Accuracy, decision making, ball security and scoring mean more than a big arm.

QBs are rewarded for being able to complete passes down field. Not for being able to throw it 70 yards and have it intercepted. Rodgers is better than Brees because he has more yards per attempt, more TDs per attempt and fewer INTs per attempt. While Brees has more totals, his attempts are so high, it brings down his rating.

It may be flawed, but the correlation to winning is stronger than any stat out there. It is unbiased and unaffected by hype or opinion. Teams that have a higher passer rating and allow the opponents a lower passer rating win the most.

If adjusted for the years that they QB played in, you eliminate any changes in the NFL from rules to equipment.

Modern QBs have an extremely large number of advantages QBs from the '40s didn't have. From schemes, rules protecting the QB and WR from injury and being interfered with, helmets, medical care, nutrition, workouts etc.

Come up with a better way to rate a QB all the way back to 1940 that is more accurate and not subject to people's obviously biased opinions and I will drop passer rating then and there.

I have said that probably 50 times. Nobody has even tried yet.
thanks Post received 1 applause.
earthquake on 6/23/2013(UTC)
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