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Offline Mucky Tundra  
#1 Posted : Monday, September 9, 2013 5:44:40 PM(UTC)
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LombardiAve wrote:
The Green Bay Packers just fell short in their 28 — 34 loss against the San Francisco 49ers. The season opener showed a Packers team that can compete with the top tier teams of the NFL. Despite the loss, it bodes well that Green Bay matched the Niners' level of physical play and were in [...]

Message modified by moderator Tuesday, September 10, 2013 10:32:39 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Offline Mucky Tundra  
#2 Posted : Monday, September 9, 2013 5:51:29 PM(UTC)
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Interesting that Lacy ran well from shotgun and spread formations. They may have to lean on that in the future against teams like the Giants. Also wondering why not use either Starks or Franklin yesterday from a spread formation and try to use their speed. I know Franklin struggled in preseason but just give him a toss to the outside or something. And while it wasn't mentioned in the article, why bench Lacy when you specifically drafted him for these games? Make him run extra laps or something during the week.
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Offline PackFanWithTwins  
#3 Posted : Monday, September 9, 2013 6:11:45 PM(UTC)
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Same story different day. Our run game has basically been inconsistent to down right terrible for years. And it all started with one event. Hiring of McCarthy and changing of the blocking scheme. It hasn't worked in GB.

The reason things work better in the spread and gun is because they are not dependent as much on the Oline opening holes. It is more blocking the defender out of the way the direction they are going. The scheme turned both Tauscher and Clifton who were both good blockers prior into less than average run blockers. And it is doing the same for our guys now.

Not to forget that in the preseason, we seldom ran with the first team.


If we should worry about Lacy being 14 for 41. SF should really worry about Gore being 21 for 44.

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The world needs ditch diggers to Danny!!!
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Offline texaspackerbacker  
#4 Posted : Monday, September 9, 2013 9:16:14 PM(UTC)
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Yeah, our O Line is so absolutely piss poor that you could have Adrian Peterson or Jim Brown in his prime, and they couldn't just ram it into the backward moving butts of the O Linemen and gain anything. (yeah, I suppose Barry Sanders could run even under those circumstances).

Anyway, the point is, we have the greatest passing attack in the world. The key to "getting the running game going" is NOT forcing the running game to get going - just do what we do best, PASS, then hit 'em with a few change of paces - runs. And even then, it better be run with some form of deception, because our pathetic O Linemen can't block straight up worth shit.
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Offline yooperfan  
#5 Posted : Tuesday, September 10, 2013 10:08:29 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: texaspackerbacker Go to Quoted Post
Yeah, our O Line is so absolutely piss poor that you could have Adrian Peterson or Jim Brown in his prime, and they couldn't just ram it into the backward moving butts of the O Linemen and gain anything. (yeah, I suppose Barry Sanders could run even under those circumstances).

Anyway, the point is, we have the greatest passing attack in the world. The key to "getting the running game going" is NOT forcing the running game to get going - just do what we do best, PASS, then hit 'em with a few change of paces - runs. And even then, it better be run with some form of deception, because our pathetic O Linemen can't block straight up worth sh!t.


I have given up all hope that TT, Mike McCarthy and James Campen will ever develop a decent offensive line for the Green Bay Packers.
Drafting, coaching and what ever "scheme" they are using has been and probably will remain in the pathetic category.
Throw in the football gods that are determined that any bright spot that does happen to show up will be lost to injury.

So under the current regime I have resigned myself to the fact that we are destined to have a bunch of fat asses who would be no more than back ups on upper echelon football teams protecting the most valuable QB in the NFL and closing the very holes they are supposed to open for running backs.

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Offline StoicFire  
#6 Posted : Tuesday, September 10, 2013 10:16:11 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: yooperfan Go to Quoted Post
I have given up all hope that TT, Mike McCarthy and James Campen will ever develop a decent offensive line for the Green Bay Packers.
Drafting, coaching and what ever "scheme" they are using has been and probably will remain in the pathetic category.
Throw in the football gods that are determined that any bright spot that does happen to show up will be lost to injury.

So under the current regime I have resigned myself to the fact that we are destined to have a bunch of fat asses who would be no more than back ups on upper echelon football teams protecting the most valuable QB in the NFL and closing the very holes they are supposed to open for running backs.



I'm not ready to throw in the towel just yet. We've seen one game so far this season. One. And it happened to be against one of the most dominant (particularly against the run) front sevens in the league. I mean seriously, it doesn't seem fair to criticize our run game too harshly just yet... I need more data.

I don't think we gain a ground game overnight either, but I expect to see gradual improvement as the season progresses. Barring injury, the line will build chemistry. I think Lacy will settle in as well. Personally I'm looking forward to the journey.
"the Quarterback can run if he wants to, but with this rocket attached to your body... who would?" -Aaron Rodgers
Offline steveishere  
#7 Posted : Tuesday, September 10, 2013 11:36:03 AM(UTC)
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I don't care if they run every play or pass every play as long as they have a good offense. Anyone who expected them to do much on the ground vs SF just wasn't thinking straight. SF has an elite run defense. To be honest we ran the ball better than I expected us to.
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Offline Cheesey  
#8 Posted : Tuesday, September 10, 2013 11:54:22 AM(UTC)
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What bothered me was, "run on 1st down, run on 2nd down, pass on 3rd".
To me, they should use the run as a surprise. Catch the other team off guard.

I haven't given up on Lacy or the run. But i think Mike McCarthy needs to be more creative on how they use it.
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Offline StoicFire  
#9 Posted : Tuesday, September 10, 2013 12:12:32 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Cheesey Go to Quoted Post
What bothered me was, "run on 1st down, run on 2nd down, pass on 3rd".
To me, they should use the run as a surprise. Catch the other team off guard.

I haven't given up on Lacy or the run. But i think Mike McCarthy needs to be more creative on how they use it.


I had mixed feelings about that. On one hand I thought of it as having a low probability for success, and it put Rodgers and company in a tough spot (therefore, bad decision). But on the other hand I thought it was a statement. McCarthy standing behind his words when he declared that the Packers WILL do a better job running the football this year.

So the jury is still out on this one for me. I like the commitment, but the lack of success made the strategy tough to swallow. Then again, the holding penalties really didn't help...
"the Quarterback can run if he wants to, but with this rocket attached to your body... who would?" -Aaron Rodgers
Offline DoddPower  
#10 Posted : Tuesday, September 10, 2013 12:58:23 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: StoicFire Go to Quoted Post
I had mixed feelings about that. On one hand I thought of it as having a low probability for success, and it put Rodgers and company in a tough spot (therefore, bad decision). But on the other hand I thought it was a statement. McCarthy standing behind his words when he declared that the Packers WILL do a better job running the football this year.

So the jury is still out on this one for me. I like the commitment, but the lack of success made the strategy tough to swallow. Then again, the holding penalties really didn't help...


Yeah, if the running plays worked well, it wouldn't even reach 3rd down every time and if it did, it could have been 3rd and short, giving the offense many options. It wasn't a problem of play calling really, it was more a matter of execution and success.
Offline Yerko  
#11 Posted : Tuesday, September 10, 2013 1:09:50 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: StoicFire Go to Quoted Post
I'm not ready to throw in the towel just yet. We've seen one game so far this season. One. And it happened to be against one of the most dominant (particularly against the run) front sevens in the league. I mean seriously, it doesn't seem fair to criticize our run game too harshly just yet... I need more data.

I don't think we gain a ground game overnight either, but I expect to see gradual improvement as the season progresses. Barring injury, the line will build chemistry. I think Lacy will settle in as well. Personally I'm looking forward to the journey.


This is the second positive post I have seen from you today and you were told to wait until Thursday.

Go sit in the corner and put this dunce cap on. Smile
Vikings Dunce

Serious now, I agree with you to an extent. I am willing to give this group of guys a chance to build a chemistry together. The offensive line setting and the runningback is brand new and hasn't had the proper time to mesh. Add that to the fact that they played one of the most dominant rush defenses in the entire league and we should be happy a touchdown came out of it. San Fran only gave up 7 rushing touchdowns last season.

The other part of me does not think this offensive line is built for the run block. Lang and EDS are not good run blockers and I don't think ever were. Outside of Sitton, we don't really have anything close to a mauler of a run blocker. I can't make judgement on Bahktairi and Barclay just yet.
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Offline yooperfan  
#12 Posted : Tuesday, September 10, 2013 1:18:19 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: StoicFire Go to Quoted Post
I'm not ready to throw in the towel just yet. We've seen one game so far this season. One. And it happened to be against one of the most dominant (particularly against the run) front sevens in the league. I mean seriously, it doesn't seem fair to criticize our run game too harshly just yet... I need more data.

I don't think we gain a ground game overnight either, but I expect to see gradual improvement as the season progresses. Barring injury, the line will build chemistry. I think Lacy will settle in as well. Personally I'm looking forward to the journey.


It is 1 game and it was against the mighty 49ers.
Don't expect too much. No.
What about the last 7 years of shitty offensive line play.
Once Clifton, Tauscher and Wells were gone, who were not drafted by TT, the collapse became complete.
Since McCarthy came on board the line has been a case of musical chairs every year.

Sitton made the Pro Bowl at right guard, hell lets make him the left guard. (ya I know we had to do something to keep Aaron Rodgers from getting sacked 51 times again this year)
I'm just disgusted that they cannot develop a quality offensive line.
It's not like this regime hasn't had enough time.

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Offline StoicFire  
#13 Posted : Tuesday, September 10, 2013 1:49:57 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Yerko Go to Quoted Post
This is the second positive post I have seen from you today and you were told to wait until Thursday.

Go sit in the corner and put this dunce cap on. Smile
Vikings Dunce

.


That just may be the ultimate dunce cap... but I don't plan on ever wearing it!
I'm going to have to learn to turn my positivity down though. Oops.

Originally Posted by: yooperfan Go to Quoted Post
It is 1 game and it was against the mighty 49ers.
Don't expect too much. No.
What about the last 7 years of sh!tty offensive line play.
Once Clifton, Tauscher and Wells were gone, who were not drafted by TT, the collapse became complete.
Since McCarthy came on board the line has been a case of musical chairs every year.

Sitton made the Pro Bowl at right guard, hell lets make him the left guard. (ya I know we had to do something to keep Aaron Rodgers from getting sacked 51 times again this year)
I'm just disgusted that they cannot develop a quality offensive line.
It's not like this regime hasn't had enough time.



I think they assembled a really good young offensive line this year. I'm not a big proponent of making excuses, but with Bulaga at Tackle I think this would be a VERY strong line. I think injuries are generally what turns it into musical chairs, not really any fault in drafting and developing players.

We all need to recognize though, that this line was built for pass blocking. Everyone on it (except maybe Sitton?) was originally a Tackle. That is why I defend the fact that they run a zone-blocking scheme. Tackles are praised for their ability to move laterally and agilely, and that is exactly what is required to run a quality zone-blocking run offense. I think the O-line and running game will be at least decent once they get more reps. We'll see though.
"the Quarterback can run if he wants to, but with this rocket attached to your body... who would?" -Aaron Rodgers
Offline texaspackerbacker  
#14 Posted : Tuesday, September 10, 2013 1:52:05 PM(UTC)
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I really think that the Packers, despite our horribly lame O Line, could just let Aaron Rodgers pass it virtually every play, and still win 11 or 12 out of 16 games, even with our sub-par defense. (Hey, that's what happened last year - 11 or 12 depending on the Seattle game).

I'm not saying we SHOULD do that, just that it is a minimum - a starting point. We seem to have a better D this season, and of course, we have Lacy, and the O Line, who knows - they have no place to go but up, so we SHOULD do better than that baseline record of last season.

What we DON'T need is to FORCE the run. Just do what we have done the last three great seasons, and let the run happen naturally - this year with Lacy.

As for the idea of giving up or not on TT, MM, or even Campen, there has been a little bit of a bad luck factor - injuries mainly. I'm willing to give them another year or two before pulling the plug and blowing up the team Big Grin
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Offline sschind  
#15 Posted : Tuesday, September 10, 2013 5:41:51 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: yooperfan Go to Quoted Post


Sitton made the Pro Bowl at right guard, hell lets make him the left guard. (ya I know we had to do something to keep Aaron Rodgers from getting sacked 51 times again this year)
I'm just disgusted that they cannot develop a quality offensive line.
It's not like this regime hasn't had enough time.



They drafted OL in the first round two years in a row and those guys are hurt. I'm not using the injuries as an excuse as to why the line sucks, who knows it may suck even with them but you can't say Ted Thompson has ignored the position.

I respect your right to have your opinion but that doesn't mean I agree with it or respect you for having it.
Offline Wade  
#16 Posted : Wednesday, September 11, 2013 8:42:50 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: sschind Go to Quoted Post
They drafted OL in the first round two years in a row and those guys are hurt. I'm not using the injuries as an excuse as to why the line sucks, who knows it may suck even with them but you can't say Ted Thompson has ignored the position.



It isn't that he hasn't addressed the position. It is that he may not be good at assessing talent (or at picking people who assess talent) at OL positions. Arguably he's Hall-of-Fame quality at his ability to pick WRs. But, just as arguably, he's mediocre in his ability to pick OL.

If you're a .180 hitter, it doesn't matter how many times you try to swing the bat. You still aren't a major league outfielder.
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Offline steveishere  
#17 Posted : Wednesday, September 11, 2013 9:00:43 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Wade Go to Quoted Post
It isn't that he hasn't addressed the position. It is that he may not be good at assessing talent (or at picking people who assess talent) at OL positions. Arguably he's Hall-of-Fame quality at his ability to pick WRs. But, just as arguably, he's mediocre in his ability to pick OL.

If you're a .180 hitter, it doesn't matter how many times you try to swing the bat. You still aren't a major league outfielder.


I cannot say I know of many teams who would have a better offensive line right now if they lost 2 starting tackles and would still have a back up as "good" as Newhouse on the bench.
Offline Pack93z  
#18 Posted : Wednesday, September 11, 2013 9:08:59 AM(UTC)
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Campen has proven over the course of his tenure here, that he simply cannot consistently and effectively develop talent.

Whom really has excelled in his hands? Sitton and ...............

Bulaga and Lang, based on the talent level coming out of college really should have become better than they currently are.

We have drafted 17 players in that time frame.. 3 in last two years, so lets remove them from the count. So out of 14 players.. 3 have or start for other teams.

Breno Giacomini Starts for the SeaHawks
Jamon Meredith Started over 10 games for the Bucs last season.
Colledge starts for the Cardinals.

We have developed no all pros in that time frame.. and 1 pro bowl berth from the group. And yearly we struggle in blitz pickups and establishing a running game consistently.

We hear about pad level and leverage way to often.. yet Campen continues to hold his position.

I gave up on Campen in 2008.. so this isn't a knee jerk reaction based on one game.. one season. This is a pattern.

Expecting a flip of the line and different results with the same position coach putting together the protection and blocking schemes is overtly optimistic in my opinion.

I miss the days of a competent offensive line coach that can actually develop not only players but units. We beg for offensive balance, but hamstring it with an ill prepared unit to provide it.

I think when there's enough will and aggression, there's no shortage of talent either.

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yooperfan on 9/11/2013(UTC), Wade on 9/11/2013(UTC), nerdmann on 9/11/2013(UTC), wpr on 9/12/2013(UTC), Yerko on 9/12/2013(UTC)
Offline Dulak  
#19 Posted : Wednesday, September 11, 2013 9:31:52 AM(UTC)
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" Packers Need to Get the Running Game Going "

And we didnt see this 5 years ago? ...

and running vs san fran with our guys and our play calling = the game we had.

Now I dont know if its me or the teams we have faced or our players or what - but dont we know by now to run to the outside either with a run or a screen? ... even grant had much more success doing this then running into the mess on the inside.

If we keep doing what we have always done we will still get the 2 yards a carry like we always have.

Offline Wade  
#20 Posted : Wednesday, September 11, 2013 9:35:42 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: steveishere Go to Quoted Post
I cannot say I know of many teams who would have a better offensive line right now if they lost 2 starting tackles and would still have a back up as "good" as Newhouse on the bench.


The point is that this is Thompson's NINTH year as the GM making decisions about the line.

It isn't just this year that he hasn't had an offensive line with major question marks. IT IS THE NINTH.

By the ninth year he shouldn't be dependent on not losing starters. Very few teams go an entire season without having to replace starter(s) on the OL.

Look. I was happy when I saw Daryn Colledge drafted. But he turned out to be, despite Zero's continued hero worship, nothing better than a servicable starter. A Newhouse-level guard if you will.

Before Bulaga got hurt, all we had was one "really good camp" to go on whether he actually would have worked as a starting LT. Frankly, given his inconsistency at RT, that's a pretty big leap of faith in my opinion.

And the leap of faith re: Sherrod is even better. Sure, he was a #1. So was Tony Mandarich. We have even less grounds for being certain of his success uninjured than we have for Bulaga right now.

Ted has had one home run on the OL since he got here. Sitton.

In nine years. Despite the attention you and others are right to point out he has given the positions in the draft. Nine years, one home run.

How many OLs do I think would have been better than GBs OL did they have Sherrod and Bulaga? Based on TT/MM/JC's track record in their time here -- no less than 20 with a fair bet that it would be 25 or more.

Before 2010 I was increasingly disenchanted with TT. But 2010 convinced me that he should be the GM for a very long time.

But I still think "assessing OL talent" is his Achilles heel. If I were Mark Murphy, I'd be asking him when he's going to shake up the team's scout/personnel people with regard to how they do OL evaluation.



And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
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Offline buckeyepackfan  
#21 Posted : Wednesday, September 11, 2013 9:50:20 AM(UTC)
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My Bold Prediction for the week.

Eddy Lacy will run for 150yds and 3 td's Sunday!!!

Redskins are not The 49r's, in fact they are pretty beat up already on the defensive side.

BOOK IT!!!!!!

Those of you who have him in FFL better not sit his ass!!!
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Offline texaspackerbacker  
#22 Posted : Wednesday, September 11, 2013 10:27:40 AM(UTC)
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Reading the negative comments about Campen reminds me, there are two separate topics here kinda rolled into one:

A run first philosophy, or even a balance between passing and running, which I absolutely oppose given the fact that we have such a great QB - I still say, use the pass intensively to set up the run as a change of pace or threat basically to make the passing game more effective.

The other topic, though, is the poor quality O Line - which is a severe detriment to BOTH the running game and passing game. In this, I wholeheartedly agree with the Campen detractors. True, we have had fairly extreme bad luck with injuries, but the larger point is that Campen has been poor at developing O Linemen both in terms of run blocking and pass blocking.
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Offline nerdmann  
#23 Posted : Wednesday, September 11, 2013 10:57:09 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Wade Go to Quoted Post
The point is that this is Thompson's NINTH year as the GM making decisions about the line.

It isn't just this year that he hasn't had an offensive line with major question marks. IT IS THE NINTH.

By the ninth year he shouldn't be dependent on not losing starters. Very few teams go an entire season without having to replace starter(s) on the OL.

Look. I was happy when I saw Daryn Colledge drafted. But he turned out to be, despite Zero's continued hero worship, nothing better than a servicable starter. A Newhouse-level guard if you will.

Before Bulaga got hurt, all we had was one "really good camp" to go on whether he actually would have worked as a starting LT. Frankly, given his inconsistency at RT, that's a pretty big leap of faith in my opinion.

And the leap of faith re: Sherrod is even better. Sure, he was a #1. So was Tony Mandarich. We have even less grounds for being certain of his success uninjured than we have for Bulaga right now.

Ted has had one home run on the OL since he got here. Sitton.

In nine years. Despite the attention you and others are right to point out he has given the positions in the draft. Nine years, one home run.

How many OLs do I think would have been better than GBs OL did they have Sherrod and Bulaga? Based on TT/MM/JC's track record in their time here -- no less than 20 with a fair bet that it would be 25 or more.

Before 2010 I was increasingly disenchanted with TT. But 2010 convinced me that he should be the GM for a very long time.

But I still think "assessing OL talent" is his Achilles heel. If I were Mark Murphy, I'd be asking him when he's going to shake up the team's scout/personnel people with regard to how they do OL evaluation.






First off, Mike was asking for "smaller, quicker" linemen those first 5 years. Since then, Ted's batting average has increased considerably.

I mean really. We're starting our 3rd and 4th T's. How many teams could do that without having to make a desperate trade? Not only that, but we have a 5th guy who can swing to either side and be effective. Plus there's also Lang who's proven he can get it done at T if necessary.

Shit dude, wtf more do you want? Five pro bowlers at the position?
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Offline nerdmann  
#24 Posted : Wednesday, September 11, 2013 11:02:21 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: texaspackerbacker Go to Quoted Post
Reading the negative comments about Campen reminds me, there are two separate topics here kinda rolled into one:

A run first philosophy, or even a balance between passing and running, which I absolutely oppose given the fact that we have such a great QB - I still say, use the pass intensively to set up the run as a change of pace or threat basically to make the passing game more effective.

The other topic, though, is the poor quality O Line - which is a severe detriment to BOTH the running game and passing game. In this, I wholeheartedly agree with the Campen detractors. True, we have had fairly extreme bad luck with injuries, but the larger point is that Campen has been poor at developing O Linemen both in terms of run blocking and pass blocking.


Another issue is that the offensive philosophy does nothing to help this OL.

First of all, let's see some screens. No, not swinging it out to the WR when the CB is playing off. I'm talking about getting Franklin in space with some blockers out front. Slow that DL down. Make them think twice about going straight at the passer. This will also cause them to pursue sideline to sideline, wearing them down as the game goes on.

Second of all, let's get some time of possession. Keep that defense on the field. They'll get tired, like our guys did against the Niners.

Thirdly, let's stop having our QB hang onto the ball for 8 seconds waiting for something deep.

So yeah, there are issues. Especially with Campen, imo. But come on man. We know we have a weak spot on our team, why make it more glaring? Why not help those guys out a little? Help the defense out too, by keeping them fresh. Two birds with one stone.
“Winning is not a sometime thing, it is an all the time thing. You don't do things right once in a while…you do them right all the time.”
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#25 Posted : Wednesday, September 11, 2013 2:45:13 PM(UTC)
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You always hear announcers and analysts talking about how you need to get a RB lathered up, that they get better as the game goes on. That is actually incorrect.

The reason backs and running games get better as the game goes on is because the offensive line wears down the defensive front so there are bigger holes. What needs to get lathered up is the Oline, the more they run block, the better they become because defensive lineman tire more when being pushed back, rather than them pushing forward.

We never give our oline a chance to get going.
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thanks Post received 1 applause.
nerdmann on 9/11/2013(UTC)
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