Join Our Green Bay Packers Interactive Community!

We have been providing fans with the best source of Packers information since 2006!
Your participation is greatly anticipated!
Login or Register.
2 Pages<12
Options
Go to last post Go to first unread
Offline play2win  
#26 Posted : Monday, September 23, 2013 4:44:06 AM(UTC)
play2win

Rank: 1st Round Draft Pick

United States
Joined: 3/29/2012(UTC)
Location: Milwaukee

Applause Given: 1,076
Applause Received: 725

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool Go to Quoted Post
This means nothing, unless it can be compared to at least Brett Favre and Mike McCarthy and Favre and Mike Holmgren.

Show us those numbers please. If not, then that stat is as useful as saying the team with the most points wins 100% of the time.


Are you crazy? How is 0-18 insignificant and meaningless? We get down on good teams and we apparently cannot come from behind for the win.

My bigger point is that this is not all on Aaron Rodgers, as Mike McCarthy has to pull his head out of his ass and start having all phases of his team ready to take the field, including himself and his staff. The 0-17 figure prior to losing this last one came from another report that I posted a link to.

Why is our Kick Returner still dropping balls back there 3 weeks into the season, when this was a problem going into the season? Clearly, the problem went unaddressed.

Quote:
Some fans may be unfamiliar with Bill Kenney, the Kansas City Chiefs’ signal caller from the 1980s. Most fans who even know Kenney are scratching their heads right now to figure out what he has to do with Green Bay’s Aaron Rodgers.

Bill who?

On the surface, the two have very little in common. But they share one startling similarity: Rodgers and Kenney are two of the worst quarterbacks of all time when it comes to fourth-quarter comeback opportunities:
Rodgers is 3-18 (.143)
Kenney was 3-27 (.100)
Rodgers was a first-round pick drafted to replace the legendary Brett Favre, while Kenney was Miami’s Mr. Irrelevant choice in the 1978 draft. He was technically next to last, but the final pick never made it to training camp so Kenney got the title. The Chiefs drafted Todd Blackledge in 1983 to replace Kenney.

Kenney was an average quarterback with a 34-43 record as a starter, and his only playoff appearance was coming off the bench in a defeat. Kenney is the only Mr. Irrelevant to ever make the Pro Bowl, as he was an alternate for his 1983 season in which he became the fourth NFL quarterback to throw for 4,000 yards in a season, beating Lynn Dickey (the fifth) by a day.

Rodgers is statistically out of this world. He has gone 41-21 in the last four years and won a Super Bowl and Super Bowl MVP in 2010. In 69 games, Rodgers already has 27 more touchdown passes and 89 more passing yards than Kenney had in his career (106 games).

But Kenney and Rodgers do have quite a bit in common.

Kenney and Rodgers are two of only five quarterbacks to produce a game with four touchdown passes and two touchdown runs. They both even had 38 pass attempts in that game. But that is a one-game comparison that just makes for interesting trivia.

The statistical similarities we are talking about go much deeper than one game, or one season for that matter. The greater similarity is that Rodgers, like Kenney, has consistently failed to come up big in critical fourth-quarter comeback opportuntiies.

It is the reason Kenney was not held in higher regard in his day, and it's the reason that has kept Rodgers from even more success in Green Bay.

A refresher in case you forgot your Captain Comeback terminology: a fourth-quarter comeback opportunity is when an offense has possession of the ball in the fourth quarter, trailing by 1-8 points (one score).

And Rodgers falls far short of most of his contemporaries. Consider Giants QB Eli Manning and Cowboys QB Tony Romo.
Manning, who knocked the 15-1 Packers out of the playoffs last season, is 21-22 (.488) in fourth-quarter comeback opportunities.
Romo, who is widely perceived as a huge choker, is 13-20 (.394) in fourth-quarter comeback opportuntiies.
Hell, even JaMarcus Russell was 3-6 in his short career; he was a defensive stop away from 4-5, and one of his other losses came when Justin Fargas fumbled the ball on the drive’s only play.

Some believe these things even out over the years, but Kenney played nine seasons, and Rodgers’ record involves the last five. How many years does one need to display a good or bad record in close games before you believe it is more than just a random fluke?

At some point, pure dumb luck should have given them a boost. Instead, Rodgers is Mr. Irrelevant in the fourth quarter, much like Kenney was Mr Irrelevant in the draft.
http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/content/aaron-rodgers-mr-irrelevant-fourth-quarter/15278/

Message modified by user Monday, September 23, 2013 5:06:33 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline Zero2Cool  
#27 Posted : Monday, September 23, 2013 5:04:38 AM(UTC)
Zero2Cool

Rank: Legend

Yahoo! Fantasy Football - Gold: 2009FleaFlicker Fantasy Football - Silver: 2010Yahoo! NCAA March Madness - Silver: 2011ESPN NCAA March Madness - Bronze: 2010Yahoo! NCAA March Madness - Bronze: 2013

United States
Joined: 10/13/2006(UTC)
Location: Green Bay, WI

Applause Given: 1,969
Applause Received: 2,231

Originally Posted by: play2win Go to Quoted Post
Are you crazy? How is 0-18 insignificant and meaningless?


Are you going to share what was requested or is this just another dismissive stat that we have nothing to compare it to? It seems kind of obvious to me that a team that is above .500 is going to win, as indicated by their record.

Stats are great, I love them, but it really justify them, you need something to compare them to. I'm interested in seeing Favre/McCarthy or even Favre/Holmgren. You were able to collected Rodgers/McCarthy. I have confidence you can do this.



Edit, oh, and yes, I am.
"I do not think there is any thrill that can go through the human heart like that felt by the inventor as he sees some creation of the brain unfolding to success... such emotions make a man forget food, sleep, friends, love, everything." - Nikola Tesla

UserPostedImage
Offline play2win  
#28 Posted : Monday, September 23, 2013 5:09:24 AM(UTC)
play2win

Rank: 1st Round Draft Pick

United States
Joined: 3/29/2012(UTC)
Location: Milwaukee

Applause Given: 1,076
Applause Received: 725

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool Go to Quoted Post
Are you going to share what was requested or is this just another dismissive stat that we have nothing to compare it to? It seems kind of obvious to me that a team that is above .500 is going to win, as indicated by their record.

Stats are great, I love them, but it really justify them, you need something to compare them to. I'm interested in seeing Favre/McCarthy or even Favre/Holmgren. You were able to collected Rodgers/McCarthy. I have confidence you can do this.



Edit, oh, and yes, I am.


Hahaha. Actually, I recall looking into Favre a long time ago regarding this, and he was not great at the 4th quarter comebacks either. Hence, the one Superbowl title... He should have had many.

BTW, I edited my post with some info on Rodgers. Meh, I don't like it, but there it is. In ALL game winning drives, Rodgers was just 6-20 at the time the article was written (July, 2012), a .231 winning percentage.

Edit, oh, and I knew you were. That was hardly a question.
Offline Zero2Cool  
#29 Posted : Monday, September 23, 2013 5:16:52 AM(UTC)
Zero2Cool

Rank: Legend

Yahoo! Fantasy Football - Gold: 2009FleaFlicker Fantasy Football - Silver: 2010Yahoo! NCAA March Madness - Silver: 2011ESPN NCAA March Madness - Bronze: 2010Yahoo! NCAA March Madness - Bronze: 2013

United States
Joined: 10/13/2006(UTC)
Location: Green Bay, WI

Applause Given: 1,969
Applause Received: 2,231

I don't like it either. I actually feel more comfortable with Mason Crosby kicking a game winning 47 yard FG than Aaron Rodgers trying to drive for a touchdown to win the game from 50 yards out and 90 seconds on the clock.

Rodgers is great when things are going his way. When he's getting roughed up and hit, he buckles, just like Tom Brady.
"I do not think there is any thrill that can go through the human heart like that felt by the inventor as he sees some creation of the brain unfolding to success... such emotions make a man forget food, sleep, friends, love, everything." - Nikola Tesla

UserPostedImage
thanks Post received 1 applause.
DoddPower on 9/24/2013(UTC)
Offline play2win  
#30 Posted : Monday, September 23, 2013 5:25:00 AM(UTC)
play2win

Rank: 1st Round Draft Pick

United States
Joined: 3/29/2012(UTC)
Location: Milwaukee

Applause Given: 1,076
Applause Received: 725

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool Go to Quoted Post
I don't like it either. I actually feel more comfortable with Mason Crosby kicking a game winning 47 yard FG than Aaron Rodgers trying to drive for a touchdown to win the game from 50 yards out and 90 seconds on the clock.

Rodgers is great when things are going his way. When he's getting roughed up and hit, he buckles, just like Tom Brady.


My wife is a very good football fan, and a diehard Packers fan, and she would freak out hearing you say that.Laughing She does not care much for Mason Crosby.

The whole thing is really F'd up. Mike McCarthy owns a huge share of the blame. As the article was written in July 2012, I would say we are trending in the exact same direction if not worse. Figure, too, this is a historic rate that Rodgers/McCarthy and that Packers are losing close games.

JaMarcus Russell was better...

Here's some more. A total of FIVE 4th Quarter comebacks, 2 against the hapless Lions('08,'12), 2 against the hapless 2009 Bears, and 1 against the hapless Saints without their HC last year.

http://www.pro-football-...back.cgi?player=RodgAa00

yuck. Here's another listing: http://www.coldhardfootb...ch-for-active-qbs/16571/

and, more: http://www.footballoutsi...game-winning-drive-study

Quote:
See how the best quarterbacks in the league largely make up the active leaders in GWDs? That is why Rodgers' 9-24 (.273) record at GWD opportunities continues to baffle me. Yeah, he's had some bad luck, but not significantly more so than the quarterbacks with more wins, which includes most of the league. A common trait with front-runner quarterbacks -- Len Dawson and Kurt Warner are two great examples -- is that even the few close wins they have are not that impressive. Rodgers has great stats on his nine GWDs (No. 4 in points per drive), but two of them came against the 2008 Lions (0-16). Another came against the Saints' awful defense last season.
His last GWD, at home against the 2012 Lions, was 59 yards and included seven running plays (handoffs). The closest thing to a signature drive is the one he had in New York (2011) in the final minute to set up a winning field goal to break a 35-35 tie. Given his career performance, I would like to see more from him in this area. It's a Green Bay problem, but the "best quarterback in the NFL" cannot have just nine GWDs against seven losing teams in five seasons.


Ugh....

And then, since you asked for it, Favre:
Quote:
Brett Favre is supposed to stay retired, so hopefully that will spare us any chance of the media claiming he is chasing the comeback record. He is credited with 42, but only has 27 comebacks, and is not exactly known for any real famous ones. Maybe the long game-winning TD pass to Sterling Sharpe against the Lions in the playoffs would be worth mentioning. Just not a situation Favre thrived in. The opportunities were certainly there for him to have more than anyone, but he did not come through with the record amount. A propensity for turnovers via forced throws is not what you look for in a QB in this situation.
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=3401

4th Quarter Comebacks Leaders Since 1960: http://www.pro-football-...ers/comebacks_career.htm

Favre is tied at #5 with Fran Tarkenton.

Rodgers is tied at #169 with the likes of Andy Dalton, Russell Wilson and Andrew Luck. No shit. Tom Brady is #8 all-time, tied with Johnny Unitas.

Message modified by user Monday, September 23, 2013 5:51:02 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline Zero2Cool  
#31 Posted : Monday, September 23, 2013 5:31:23 AM(UTC)
Zero2Cool

Rank: Legend

Yahoo! Fantasy Football - Gold: 2009FleaFlicker Fantasy Football - Silver: 2010Yahoo! NCAA March Madness - Silver: 2011ESPN NCAA March Madness - Bronze: 2010Yahoo! NCAA March Madness - Bronze: 2013

United States
Joined: 10/13/2006(UTC)
Location: Green Bay, WI

Applause Given: 1,969
Applause Received: 2,231

Originally Posted by: play2win Go to Quoted Post
My wife is a very good football fan, and a diehard Packers fan, and she would freak out hearing you say that. She does not care much for Mason Crosby.

The whole thing is really F'd up. Mike McCarthy owns a huge share of the blame. As the article was written in July 2012, I would say we are trending in the exact same direction if not worse. Figure, too, this is a historic rate that Rodgers/McCarthy and that Packers are losing close games.

JaMarcus Russell was better...


A lot of people don't compare stats to anything. That's why you get people hating Crosby without any due diligence, plus, last year he sucked. It's the same with Jermichael Finley. Other TE's who fans clamor over actually performed WORSE than he did. This is why I want comparative stats before I go bonkers. I did similar numbers for Rodgers in the fourth quarter back in 2010. I didn't have the time or ambition to find Favre's.

Also, is it the teams record DURING the game, or AFTER the game? After the game seems silly to me as they just snared a win.
"I do not think there is any thrill that can go through the human heart like that felt by the inventor as he sees some creation of the brain unfolding to success... such emotions make a man forget food, sleep, friends, love, everything." - Nikola Tesla

UserPostedImage
Offline musccy  
#32 Posted : Monday, September 23, 2013 5:48:27 AM(UTC)
musccy

Rank: 1st Round Draft Pick

Joined: 5/7/2009(UTC)
Location: Pennsylvania

Applause Given: 251
Applause Received: 234

Originally Posted by: hardrocker950 Go to Quoted Post

I was disappointed in the 4th and inches - instead of going with a sweep or anything to make the defense have to adjust - we see the usual Mike McCarthy "rushing" play call. This "up the middle" boneheaded call caused a fumble circus that costed us the lead.


You have to gain 3 inches. The shortest path to 3 inches is straight ahead. Mike McCarthy is neither the first, only, nor dumbest coach in the league for trying to go straight ahead to gain 3 inches.

The basic concept seemed to work out alright for Vince Lombardi and Bart Starr in the Ice Bowl.
Offline play2win  
#33 Posted : Monday, September 23, 2013 5:56:51 AM(UTC)
play2win

Rank: 1st Round Draft Pick

United States
Joined: 3/29/2012(UTC)
Location: Milwaukee

Applause Given: 1,076
Applause Received: 725

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool Go to Quoted Post
A lot of people don't compare stats to anything. That's why you get people hating Crosby without any due diligence, plus, last year he sucked. It's the same with Jermichael Finley. Other TE's who fans clamor over actually performed WORSE than he did. This is why I want comparative stats before I go bonkers. I did similar numbers for Rodgers in the fourth quarter back in 2010. I didn't have the time or ambition to find Favre's.

Also, is it the teams record DURING the game, or AFTER the game? After the game seems silly to me as they just snared a win.


I have no clue. Again. Laughing
Offline sschind  
#34 Posted : Monday, September 23, 2013 6:11:39 AM(UTC)
sschind

Rank: 3rd Round Draft Pick

United States
Joined: 3/5/2013(UTC)
Location: SE WISCONSIN

Applause Given: 123
Applause Received: 450

Originally Posted by: hardrocker950 Go to Quoted Post
Most irritating part of this game - Cinci shot themselves in the foot several times, and rather than making the most of it the pack took the gun from them and shot themselves right back.

I was disappointed in the 4th and inches - instead of going with a sweep or anything to make the defense have to adjust - we see the usual Mike McCarthy "rushing" play call. This "up the middle" boneheaded call caused a fumble circus that costed us the lead.

I could name numerous things that made me shout 4 letter beauties, but I think we can all name the obvious ones.

Let's get healthy and clean these mistakes up!


Not saying I don't agree with you about the call but the call did not cause the fumble. If that was the case we would fumble a lot more.
I respect your right to have your opinion but that doesn't mean I agree with it or respect you for having it.
Offline Zero2Cool  
#35 Posted : Monday, September 23, 2013 7:06:01 AM(UTC)
Zero2Cool

Rank: Legend

Yahoo! Fantasy Football - Gold: 2009FleaFlicker Fantasy Football - Silver: 2010Yahoo! NCAA March Madness - Silver: 2011ESPN NCAA March Madness - Bronze: 2010Yahoo! NCAA March Madness - Bronze: 2013

United States
Joined: 10/13/2006(UTC)
Location: Green Bay, WI

Applause Given: 1,969
Applause Received: 2,231

@jasonjwilde @fakePOULTER Not what he wrote but the close games as topic. #Packers now 21-24 in games decided by 8 or fewer under McCarthy/Rodgers


"I do not think there is any thrill that can go through the human heart like that felt by the inventor as he sees some creation of the brain unfolding to success... such emotions make a man forget food, sleep, friends, love, everything." - Nikola Tesla

UserPostedImage
Offline PackFanWithTwins  
#36 Posted : Monday, September 23, 2013 7:24:56 AM(UTC)
PackFanWithTwins

Rank: 1st Round Draft Pick

Joined: 9/26/2008(UTC)

Applause Given: 13
Applause Received: 398

If you look at Comebacks. Take the following into account. Rodgers wins on par with the greats at over 60% total wins. Of his wins only 9% are from comebacks. If you look at some others. Like Elway, Favre, Marino, Peyton, Brady, Montana. They run from the upper teens, to mid 20's. Meaning for some of them almost 25% of their wins are come from behinds.

Now the question comes? Does Rodgers typically haver fewer comeback wins because when he faces a team we should beat, he has us in the lead, rather than trailing. Were those other QB losing to teams they should have been ahead of in the first place?
The world needs ditch diggers to Danny!!!
UserPostedImage
thanks Post received 1 applause.
DoddPower on 9/24/2013(UTC)
Offline PackerTraxx  
#37 Posted : Monday, September 23, 2013 7:50:26 AM(UTC)
PackerTraxx

Rank: 2nd Round Draft Pick

Joined: 8/13/2008(UTC)

Applause Given: 18
Applause Received: 127

Early in Rodger's career I remember him bringing the team back in the 4th quarter a number of times only to have the D let the other team score and no time left to try and come back again. Point being sometimes the D has to take the responsibility. What much of it boils down to is we have been really snake bit the last couple of years with season and career ending injuries to key players IMO.
Why is Jerry Kramer not in the Hall of Fame?
Offline play2win  
#38 Posted : Monday, September 23, 2013 8:24:01 AM(UTC)
play2win

Rank: 1st Round Draft Pick

United States
Joined: 3/29/2012(UTC)
Location: Milwaukee

Applause Given: 1,076
Applause Received: 725

Originally Posted by: PackerTraxx Go to Quoted Post
Early in Rodger's career I remember him bringing the team back in the 4th quarter a number of times only to have the D let the other team score and no time left to try and come back again. Point being sometimes the D has to take the responsibility. What much of it boils down to is we have been really snake bit the last couple of years with season and career ending injuries to key players IMO.


Exactly the reason this should not be about Rodgers, but rather the Packers during this tenure under McCarthy.
thanks Post received 1 applause.
olds70supreme on 9/23/2013(UTC)
Offline olds70supreme  
#39 Posted : Monday, September 23, 2013 9:43:08 AM(UTC)
olds70supreme

Rank: 6th Round Draft Pick

Joined: 8/10/2009(UTC)

Applause Given: 18
Applause Received: 44

Quote:
Exactly the reason this should not be about Rodgers, but rather the Packers during this tenure under McCarthy.


Having read through the topic I was just about to post this, but you said it more succinctly than I was going to. "Rodgers'" statistic for 4th quarter comebacks is a misnomer. How hard is it to understand that one person on any team, regardless of position, does not have the power to determine the win or loss? It is a team game, and it is really a waste of time even determining as a statistic. It's really a measure of how lucky we are to have lucked into Rodgers that the worst statistic people can point to isn't even his to own. QBs own a part of the responsbility for that statistic (good or bad) but that is it.

It's a pet peave of mine that every year people make a huge fuss out of events in the first few games. Like it's life and death that the Pack started 1-2 on the year. At this point nobody can say whether they will go winless, lossless, or somewhere in between for the rest of the year. On top of that the rest of the division hasn't been lighting it up. So much can still happen, it's early. It's okay to take a breath, relax, and enjoy the rest of the season.
blank
thanks Post received 1 applause.
play2win on 9/23/2013(UTC)
Offline play2win  
#40 Posted : Monday, September 23, 2013 12:17:29 PM(UTC)
play2win

Rank: 1st Round Draft Pick

United States
Joined: 3/29/2012(UTC)
Location: Milwaukee

Applause Given: 1,076
Applause Received: 725

Awesome, brilliant post olds! Well done.

As far as the people responsible for our failed comebacks, that list is LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG. Better to look to the HC, the man in charge of everyone else, and see if he can't get this righted. I think he can.
Offline nerdmann  
#41 Posted : Monday, September 23, 2013 3:23:06 PM(UTC)
nerdmann

Rank: Most Valuable Player

Joined: 9/14/2008(UTC)

Applause Given: 2,715
Applause Received: 667

Aaron has or has had the best career third down % in history. So I don't think anyone can see he's not clutch.

But he needs to step up to this "4th Q comeback" challenge. It's almost like he's got a mental block or something.
“Winning is not a sometime thing, it is an all the time thing. You don't do things right once in a while…you do them right all the time.”
Offline Zero2Cool  
#42 Posted : Wednesday, September 25, 2013 11:00:22 AM(UTC)
Zero2Cool

Rank: Legend

Yahoo! Fantasy Football - Gold: 2009FleaFlicker Fantasy Football - Silver: 2010Yahoo! NCAA March Madness - Silver: 2011ESPN NCAA March Madness - Bronze: 2010Yahoo! NCAA March Madness - Bronze: 2013

United States
Joined: 10/13/2006(UTC)
Location: Green Bay, WI

Applause Given: 1,969
Applause Received: 2,231

Originally Posted by: play2win Go to Quoted Post
Rodgers AND McCarthy have to break the seal on this and start winning football games when down in the 4th Quarter against .500 teams or better. 0-18.

WTF?


It's not the same metrics about the team being over .500. The stat is in regards to coming back from behind in the 4th quarter.

"But, as it is, the record is 5-24 in these situations. The best quarterback in these situations is Tom Brady (27-23), the only quarterback along with Joe Montana who is over .500 in these situations."
"I do not think there is any thrill that can go through the human heart like that felt by the inventor as he sees some creation of the brain unfolding to success... such emotions make a man forget food, sleep, friends, love, everything." - Nikola Tesla

UserPostedImage
Rss Feed 
Users browsing this topic
Guest
2 Pages<12
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

Notification

Icon
Error

Tweeter

Recent Topics
1h / Green Bay Packers Talk / DakotaT

10h / Green Bay Packers Talk / stevegb

10h / Green Bay Packers Talk / Smokey

13h / Green Bay Packers Talk / civic

13h / Green Bay Packers Talk / nerdmann

19h / Green Bay Packers Talk / Mucky Tundra

21h / Green Bay Packers Talk / Mucky Tundra

27-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / dhazer

27-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

27-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / nyrpack

26-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / dhazer

26-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / dhazer

26-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / rabidgopher04

26-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / nerdmann

26-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / nerdmann