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Offline play2win  
#26 Posted : Monday, November 18, 2013 8:58:03 AM(UTC)
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Nothing against Tolzien, but if we want to start winning games, we might want to start Flynn. If Flynn can get us a Win v MIN, then he would be prime for a return against DET - a team he crushed.

I would try Flynn this week. Tolzien just seems a bit prone to making some big mistakes. He simply hasn't been in the system long enough. Flynn knows it inside and out. I think Flynn gives us the best chance to win.
Offline warhawk  
#27 Posted : Monday, November 18, 2013 10:06:49 AM(UTC)
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Tolzein will start.
They have invested this much time an faith in him and you would expect him to get better with every start. IMO it would be a monumental risk to go with Flynn now. It would be different if he had some PT under his belt at least somewhere.

I don't like second guessing signal calling but McCarthy could have helped him out by throwing the ball more when it was obvious that was working much better then running it.
I have no doubt Rodgers would have thrown the ball many more times the way this game played out so the question is why not help this kid out rather than making it harder on him to move the ball?

I also think they should have gone down field more often. He was not only hitting on those the passes were nearly always thrown where only the receiver had a chance to make the catch. In other words I never saw an under thrown deep ball. In fact most of these took a very good catch on the part of the receiver.


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nerdmann on 11/18/2013(UTC)
Offline Zero2Cool  
#28 Posted : Monday, November 18, 2013 10:17:19 AM(UTC)
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Ever notice that McCarthy rarely takes what the defense will give him? Seems kind of stubborn as if to say "No, this is what we game planned, this is the course we're taking!!"

8 or 9 in the box ... you have to see that and check out of the run play.

I'd rather win by adapting than lose by being pigheaded doing it "my" way.
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play2win on 11/18/2013(UTC), nerdmann on 11/18/2013(UTC), olds70supreme on 11/18/2013(UTC), sschind on 11/18/2013(UTC), Mucky Tundra on 11/18/2013(UTC)
Offline sschind  
#29 Posted : Monday, November 18, 2013 11:55:36 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: play2win Go to Quoted Post
Nothing against Tolzien, but if we want to start winning games, we might want to start Flynn. If Flynn can get us a Win v MIN, then he would be prime for a return against DET - a team he crushed.

I would try Flynn this week. Tolzien just seems a bit prone to making some big mistakes. He simply hasn't been in the system long enough. Flynn knows it inside and out. I think Flynn gives us the best chance to win.


Flynn did crush the Lions but if you recall Stafford crushed our defense as well. Given the way things have been lately which do you think would be the more likely repeat.

As far as I am concerned its a horse apiece as for who gets the start. Tolzien didn't look horrible and he has been working with the #1s for longer so I would give him the nod but if Flynn looks really good in practice I'd be fine with starting him as well. The problem is Mike McCarthy has to pick one guy now and give him all the work. He can't afford to see which one practices better with the starters.
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Offline sschind  
#30 Posted : Monday, November 18, 2013 12:03:15 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool Go to Quoted Post
Ever notice that McCarthy rarely takes what the defense will give him? Seems kind of stubborn as if to say "No, this is what we game planned, this is the course we're taking!!"

8 or 9 in the box ... you have to see that and check out of the run play.

I'd rather win by adapting than lose by being pigheaded doing it "my" way.


McCarthy always seems to have a difficult time adjusting. We don't see it as much because when you are winning most of the time the idea is what is there to adjust? But when the other teams do adjust it comes back to bite us. Next to his clock management this is my biggest knock on him. Actually this may be bigger.

I'm not sure if it is that he can't adjust or he won't but I do think he is too good of a coach to say he can't. That means pigheaded and stubborn are two very good words to use to describe MM.
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Offline Porforis  
#31 Posted : Monday, November 18, 2013 1:04:27 PM(UTC)
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How much of the offense's success in the past from a playcall perspective fell on Rodgers' ability to change the play on the fly?
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buckeyepackfan on 11/18/2013(UTC)
Offline play2win  
#32 Posted : Monday, November 18, 2013 1:30:44 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Porforis Go to Quoted Post
How much of the offense's success in the past from a playcall perspective fell on Rodgers' ability to change the play on the fly?


I would say quite a lot. That is why I want Flynn in there instead of Tolzien. Simply for the fact that he's had multiple years in our system, vs. multiple weeks since Sept., and that he has seen the defensive adjustments on the other side and has made adjustments accordingly.

Do I like Scott Tolzien and his arm, his demeanor? Yeah, but it seems he is just too inexperienced in both our system and the pro game in general. He has some very positive attributes that I believe can be groomed with some time. But, he was on the PS just two weeks ago. The good has been really good, but the bad has also been really bad. Huge mistakes. Pick sixes are tough to overcome, for any team, and, 5 INTs through 2 games?

Flynn backed up Rodgers for years, and has shown the ability to manage the team properly, and to make the throws. Breaking all-time team records for passing in nothing to sneeze at. Flynn gives us a better shot at winning in my opinion.

I think the bigger question is, can Mike McCarthy get his team ready to win? On all levels? That, and can he game plan to make Flynn more of a game manager, rather than the second coming of Aaron Rodgers? Make it more of a realistic game for Flynn to play and realize success in?

Who knows? They'll probably stick with Tolzien.
Offline buckeyepackfan  
#33 Posted : Monday, November 18, 2013 3:57:50 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: play2win Go to Quoted Post
I would say quite a lot. That is why I want Flynn in there instead of Tolzien. Simply for the fact that he's had multiple years in our system, vs. multiple weeks since Sept., and that he has seen the defensive adjustments on the other side and has made adjustments accordingly.

Do I like Scott Tolzien and his arm, his demeanor? Yeah, but it seems he is just too inexperienced in both our system and the pro game in general. He has some very positive attributes that I believe can be groomed with some time. But, he was on the PS just two weeks ago. The good has been really good, but the bad has also been really bad. Huge mistakes. Pick sixes are tough to overcome, for any team, and, 5 INTs through 2 games?

Flynn backed up Rodgers for years, and has shown the ability to manage the team properly, and to make the throws. Breaking all-time team records for passing in nothing to sneeze at. Flynn gives us a better shot at winning in my opinion.

I think the bigger question is, can Mike McCarthy get his team ready to win? On all levels? That, and can he game plan to make Flynn more of a game manager, rather than the second coming of Aaron Rodgers? Make it more of a realistic game for Flynn to play and realize success in?

Who knows? They'll probably stick with Tolzien.


I hi-lited a section of your quote, not only Tolzien, but how many other Packers should you give the same consideration to?

I am all for the draft and develop theory, but look at this year, Ted ended up with 11 drafted or undrafted rookies on the squad, and most have been thrust into major playing time due to injuries.

These rookies along with most of the 2nd year guys, are being forced to grow up fast, and are expected to perform like 4-5 year vets.

I really hope, that when next year comes around, that Ted doesn't see the need to turn 6 draft picks into 11 and we as fans will once more be talking about "all the great potential" these guys have, only to be real disappointed when they fail at times when forced into doing something they are not ready for.

Young teams are great to watch, but I think you will find, championship teams have a good number of veteran players who have learned how to grind thorugh a whole season.

That being said, I think Tolzien is going to get his 1st win as a starting NFL qb this Sunday.

Unless of course Zero is right and we have as Steven A calls him "that baaaaaaaaaaad man" back under center.

Smile Smile Smile
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Mucky Tundra on 11/18/2013(UTC)
Offline Cheesey  
#34 Posted : Monday, November 18, 2013 4:53:32 PM(UTC)
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With our lousy defense, it takes a Aaron
Rodgers to even have a chance to win.
If Rodgers can't play Sunday, I'd give Flynn
the start as he at least is expierienced.
But Mike McCarthy already said Tolzien gets the start.
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Offline PackFanWithTwins  
#35 Posted : Monday, November 18, 2013 5:37:46 PM(UTC)
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It is a lot easier to come in and play in replacement of Rodgers, when you are throwing to Jennings, Driver, Jones, Nelson, Finley. Than when you come in missing 2 of the top 5 receiving options and missing one or two starting Olineman.
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Offline play2win  
#36 Posted : Monday, November 18, 2013 6:38:38 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: buckeyepackfan Go to Quoted Post
I hi-lited a section of your quote, not only Tolzien, but how many other Packers should you give the same consideration to?

I am all for the draft and develop theory, but look at this year, Ted ended up with 11 drafted or undrafted rookies on the squad, and most have been thrust into major playing time due to injuries.

These rookies along with most of the 2nd year guys, are being forced to grow up fast, and are expected to perform like 4-5 year vets.

I really hope, that when next year comes around, that Ted doesn't see the need to turn 6 draft picks into 11 and we as fans will once more be talking about "all the great potential" these guys have, only to be real disappointed when they fail at times when forced into doing something they are not ready for.

Young teams are great to watch, but I think you will find, championship teams have a good number of veteran players who have learned how to grind thorugh a whole season.

That being said, I think Tolzien is going to get his 1st win as a starting NFL qb this Sunday.

Unless of course Zero is right and we have as Steven A calls him "that baaaaaaaaaaad man" back under center.

Smile Smile Smile


Very different when talking about the most important position on the team. That's why I would chose Flynn. We have to win out. I'm looking ahead to DET. I would rather have Flynn get one win and some reps before heading into that Thanksgiving game. Again, 5 INTs in 2 games for Tolzien?

McCarthy feels differently, and I think that is the wrong call. I find myself trusting McCarthy less and less to make the best decisions.
Offline dhazer  
#37 Posted : Monday, November 18, 2013 8:13:18 PM(UTC)
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I am still confused on why so many say we should start Flynn, the guy couldn't even start in Buffalo when they lost their top 2 qbs. He couldn't start in Oakland or Seattle either. Hell if it is because he knows the system why not call old #4 he knows the system better than Flynn lol.


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buckeyepackfan on 11/20/2013(UTC)
Offline Cheesey  
#38 Posted : Monday, November 18, 2013 9:43:29 PM(UTC)
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Hazer...you ask why? Because we have seen what
Tolzien can do, and are not sure he
can win for us.
What have we to lose ?
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play2win on 11/19/2013(UTC)
Offline play2win  
#39 Posted : Tuesday, November 19, 2013 6:05:25 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Cheesey Go to Quoted Post
Hazer...you ask why? Because we have seen what
Tolzien can do, and are not sure he
can win for us.
What have we to lose ?


You're right Cheesey. 5 INTs in 2 games. Those were big. If we could take 3 of those back, maybe we are 7-3 right now, instead of 5-5.

I'm not saying Flynn is good, healthy, able to make all the throws. Just that he knows the system far better than Tolzien, and has guided this Packers team to a win before. We essentially have to win out to make the playoffs. Sustaining another loss due to freakish INTs is not going to do it. We need a QB who can play a very careful game back there, with all of the chips on the line. Flynn has won a National Championship, and backed up a Super Bowl winner. I simply trust Flynn to get the job done at this point more than I do Tolzien.

I do believe both Flynn and Tolzien can win against MIN on Sunday. However, the following week v. DET might be another thing altogether. Given that, I would rather have Flynn have this MIN game to get into some kind of groove to better prepare for that Thanksgiving Day game in DET. Again, we have to win out.

This staff clearly likes Tolzien for this week better. Maybe the kid can do it. I have my doubts though after the way all of our plays were telegraphed to the NYG defense prior to the snap. They knew exactly what we were going to do. How far was Tolzien able to work in the progressions? What kind of adjustments was he able to make at the line of scrimmage? The kid has been on just the Practice Squad since Sept 2nd. Signed to the roster Nov. 6th. That was TWO WEEKS AGO! That is not a lot of time to know the system. Flynn has been an integral part of the Packers system for 4 solid years, 2008-20012, in the QB meeting room, competing for roster spots, backing up Rodgers, etc. To me, it seems like a no-brainer.
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Dulak on 11/20/2013(UTC), TheKanataThrilla on 11/20/2013(UTC)
Offline gbguy20  
#40 Posted : Tuesday, November 19, 2013 8:28:18 PM(UTC)
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Offline Dulak  
#41 Posted : Wednesday, November 20, 2013 6:45:38 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: play2win Go to Quoted Post
You're right Cheesey. 5 INTs in 2 games. Those were big. If we could take 3 of those back, maybe we are 7-3 right now, instead of 5-5.

I'm not saying Flynn is good, healthy, able to make all the throws. Just that he knows the system far better than Tolzien, and has guided this Packers team to a win before. We essentially have to win out to make the playoffs. Sustaining another loss due to freakish INTs is not going to do it. We need a QB who can play a very careful game back there, with all of the chips on the line. Flynn has won a National Championship, and backed up a Super Bowl winner. I simply trust Flynn to get the job done at this point more than I do Tolzien.

I do believe both Flynn and Tolzien can win against MIN on Sunday. However, the following week v. DET might be another thing altogether. Given that, I would rather have Flynn have this MIN game to get into some kind of groove to better prepare for that Thanksgiving Day game in DET. Again, we have to win out.

This staff clearly likes Tolzien for this week better. Maybe the kid can do it. I have my doubts though after the way all of our plays were telegraphed to the NYG defense prior to the snap. They knew exactly what we were going to do. How far was Tolzien able to work in the progressions? What kind of adjustments was he able to make at the line of scrimmage? The kid has been on just the Practice Squad since Sept 2nd. Signed to the roster Nov. 6th. That was TWO WEEKS AGO! That is not a lot of time to know the system. Flynn has been an integral part of the Packers system for 4 solid years, 2008-20012, in the QB meeting room, competing for roster spots, backing up Rodgers, etc. To me, it seems like a no-brainer.


I agree - ok ok Tolzien is new and wed like him to be a good backup; but like play2win said 5 INTs in 2 games killed it for us. Thats game over; Just like running backs need ball security else we lose games - same goes with QBs. Its great he can throw bombs; but that wont help if the other team is scoring more due to our INTs.

Remember when the giants were the worst team in the NFL ... we lost to them ... now the vikings ... and then lions ... got some peeps coming over for thanksgiving here in the UK Id at least like to show them a team that isnt going to suck that bad ... I dont want to have to say "normally we would of won this game but blah blah blah".
Offline nerdmann  
#42 Posted : Wednesday, November 20, 2013 9:48:23 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Dulak Go to Quoted Post
I agree - ok ok Tolzien is new and wed like him to be a good backup; but like play2win said 5 INTs in 2 games killed it for us. Thats game over; Just like running backs need ball security else we lose games - same goes with QBs. Its great he can throw bombs; but that wont help if the other team is scoring more due to our INTs.

Remember when the giants were the worst team in the NFL ... we lost to them ... now the vikings ... and then lions ... got some peeps coming over for thanksgiving here in the UK Id at least like to show them a team that isnt going to suck that bad ... I dont want to have to say "normally we would of won this game but blah blah blah".


We lost to them, because Mike wouldn't let Tolzien throw past the "9 men in the box." Why do you think that JPP interception happened?

It wasn't on Tolzien, that was on Mike.
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Offline sschind  
#43 Posted : Wednesday, November 20, 2013 1:06:32 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Cheesey Go to Quoted Post
Hazer...you ask why? Because we have seen what
Tolzien can do, and are not sure he
can win for us.
What have we to lose ?


What have we to lose? How about a game and a possible shot at the playoffs. We are not sure Flynn can win for us either. Just because he played out of his mind in one game a couple of years ago does not mean he can do it again especially when he hasn't done anything close to it since. Not that he would have to play out of his mind to beat the vikings but I think Tolzien can do just as well.



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Offline steveishere  
#44 Posted : Thursday, November 21, 2013 6:10:38 AM(UTC)
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Flynn lost the first game and a half he played for us as well. He didn't throw 5 INTs but he did have some really bad INTs with 1 being a pick 6 in a game we lost by 4.
Offline Zero2Cool  
#45 Posted : Sunday, November 24, 2013 3:30:18 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: nerdmann Go to Quoted Post
No way. Tolzien is the man.


Knew that was bogus when you said it too.
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Offline nerdmann  
#46 Posted : Sunday, November 24, 2013 3:33:48 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool Go to Quoted Post
Knew that was bogus when you said it too.


Tolzien had his shot. Now Flynn is the man. He's earned it.

Tolzien still has developmental potential, but Flynn looks like his arm is just fine. Loved the moxie on that 4th down play to go with the hard count!
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Offline beast  
#47 Posted : Sunday, November 24, 2013 3:40:38 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: PackFanWithTwins Go to Quoted Post
It is a lot easier to come in and play in replacement of Rodgers, when you are throwing to Jennings, Driver, Jones, Nelson, Finley. Than when you come in missing 2 of the top 5 receiving options and missing one or two starting Olineman.


True... but you also have to factor in Eddie Lacy and the running game. Which helps currently compared to the past.


As far as Flynn against the Lions in the past, I say people overlook the biggest two factors in that game. 1) When healthy the Lions DBs were VERY bad. 2) The Lions were missing their two 2 DBs due to injury that game and the guys starting on the Lions that game were horrible as starters.



Last game against the Lions, they ran a lot of wide 9 defense, which is strong with pass rush and weak in run defense putting a lot on the shoulders of their DTs.

Packers won and their new running game won that battle.

It will be interesting to see if they try that again or not. Or what new thing they try. I kind of hope they go to the wide 9 again, because if gives the Packers OL a chance of running the ball on those DTs.

Either way the Packers have to stop the Lions offense some how.
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Offline Cheesey  
#48 Posted : Sunday, November 24, 2013 3:53:41 PM(UTC)
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Flynn showed he can move the team. He has
the expierience to at least give us a chance.
That said, I hope Aaron Rodgers can play. We have a
legitimate chance to stay in the playoff
hunt and need a win against the Lions.
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Offline steveishere  
#49 Posted : Sunday, November 24, 2013 4:19:02 PM(UTC)
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I was wrong about Flynn. During the Raiders game earlier this year he played with 0 confidence which is understandable I guess and I was worried about his arm but when he got in today his confidence and leadership was obvious. The team rallied behind him. He didn't do anything too special out there besides that throw to Boykin but you can see a big difference between him and anyone else we've had in there as far as just directing and leading the team. At this point I'd be comfortable if Ted Thompson gave Flynn a decent sized back up contract to lock him up for future years. It would be nice to have a back up that's more gifted physically but that leadership isn't really something you can teach.
Offline nerdmann  
#50 Posted : Sunday, November 24, 2013 4:29:55 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: steveishere Go to Quoted Post
I was wrong about Flynn. During the Raiders game earlier this year he played with 0 confidence which is understandable I guess and I was worried about his arm but when he got in today his confidence and leadership was obvious. The team rallied behind him. He didn't do anything too special out there besides that throw to Boykin but you can see a big difference between him and anyone else we've had in there as far as just directing and leading the team. At this point I'd be comfortable if Ted Thompson gave Flynn a decent sized back up contract to lock him up for future years. It would be nice to have a back up that's more gifted physically but that leadership isn't really something you can teach.


Yeah, lock him down.
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