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steveishere  
#21 Posted : Monday, November 18, 2013 7:11:21 AM(UTC)
packerfanoutwest said: Go to Quoted Post
ok .Tolzien was not great, bad choice of word. But at the same time most of you are putting the blame on a qb who just came off the practice squad 2 weeks ago.


He may have a decent excuse for why he made them but he still deserves the blame for his mistakes. Nobody is saying to cut him or anything.
DarkaneRules  
#22 Posted : Monday, November 18, 2013 7:29:55 AM(UTC)
I expected more from him and our offense yet the red zone has been a thorn in our side all year. The teams we are playing are all trending up now, and what are we doing?
buckeyepackfan  
#23 Posted : Monday, November 18, 2013 7:35:01 AM(UTC)
The "TEAM" lost, why is it so hard for some to accept that football is the "ultimate team sport"?

Putting blame on just this guy or that guy, is just crazy.

The defense could have played better, the offense could have played better, the coach could have called a better game.

The Packers are no worse off in the division after yesterdays loss.

The wild card is now looking very improbable, but The Division is still theirs for the taking.

I'm hoping Tolzien gets the start next week, he will be in Lambeau with the home crowd, he will have had another weeks work with the starters.

The guy seems to have a level head, I don't think a couple of bad passes in one game is going to send him spiralling down into T. J. Rubley land.

There is no guarantee Aaron will be back for The Detroit game, would rather have Tolzien starting there with a few weeks of work, than have to make another QB switch in the middle of the week.



PackFanWithTwins  
#24 Posted : Monday, November 18, 2013 8:39:10 AM(UTC)
I don't think Tolzein played badly. He had one terrible play where he got his arm hit once while trying to throw, tried to recover and let the ball fly in panic resulting in the 3rd TD. But the game was already lost at that point. Even if he had just thrown the ball away, they are 14pts down with @2min remaining. The game was over on JPP freak INT/TD.

His first INT was not an overly bad either. He threw the ball to flat. Had he put a little more air on it, chances are they have a nice gain over the middle. That was another nice play by a defender.

And remember when Flynn had his starts, he has a mostly healthy offense around him. He had Jennings, Jones, Driver, Nelson, Finley(1of2). Tolzein is playing without one starting WR in Cobb and without Finely.
DarkaneRules  
#25 Posted : Monday, November 18, 2013 8:42:02 AM(UTC)
Agreed. This is why I have definitely tempered my expectations. Tolzein speaks with a very level-headed and authoritative tone. It is commendable, but it also probably had me a little too high for this game so my low was lower than it should have been. When it was all over, I shook the hands of Giants fans for a good game and hope another week of practice will give us the edge next week.
play2win  
#26 Posted : Monday, November 18, 2013 8:58:03 AM(UTC)
Nothing against Tolzien, but if we want to start winning games, we might want to start Flynn. If Flynn can get us a Win v MIN, then he would be prime for a return against DET - a team he crushed.

I would try Flynn this week. Tolzien just seems a bit prone to making some big mistakes. He simply hasn't been in the system long enough. Flynn knows it inside and out. I think Flynn gives us the best chance to win.
warhawk  
#27 Posted : Monday, November 18, 2013 10:06:49 AM(UTC)
Tolzein will start.
They have invested this much time an faith in him and you would expect him to get better with every start. IMO it would be a monumental risk to go with Flynn now. It would be different if he had some PT under his belt at least somewhere.

I don't like second guessing signal calling but McCarthy could have helped him out by throwing the ball more when it was obvious that was working much better then running it.
I have no doubt Rodgers would have thrown the ball many more times the way this game played out so the question is why not help this kid out rather than making it harder on him to move the ball?

I also think they should have gone down field more often. He was not only hitting on those the passes were nearly always thrown where only the receiver had a chance to make the catch. In other words I never saw an under thrown deep ball. In fact most of these took a very good catch on the part of the receiver.


Zero2Cool  
#28 Posted : Monday, November 18, 2013 10:17:19 AM(UTC)
Ever notice that McCarthy rarely takes what the defense will give him? Seems kind of stubborn as if to say "No, this is what we game planned, this is the course we're taking!!"

8 or 9 in the box ... you have to see that and check out of the run play.

I'd rather win by adapting than lose by being pigheaded doing it "my" way.
sschind  
#29 Posted : Monday, November 18, 2013 11:55:36 AM(UTC)
play2win said: Go to Quoted Post
Nothing against Tolzien, but if we want to start winning games, we might want to start Flynn. If Flynn can get us a Win v MIN, then he would be prime for a return against DET - a team he crushed.

I would try Flynn this week. Tolzien just seems a bit prone to making some big mistakes. He simply hasn't been in the system long enough. Flynn knows it inside and out. I think Flynn gives us the best chance to win.


Flynn did crush the Lions but if you recall Stafford crushed our defense as well. Given the way things have been lately which do you think would be the more likely repeat.

As far as I am concerned its a horse apiece as for who gets the start. Tolzien didn't look horrible and he has been working with the #1s for longer so I would give him the nod but if Flynn looks really good in practice I'd be fine with starting him as well. The problem is Mike McCarthy has to pick one guy now and give him all the work. He can't afford to see which one practices better with the starters.
sschind  
#30 Posted : Monday, November 18, 2013 12:03:15 PM(UTC)
Zero2Cool said: Go to Quoted Post
Ever notice that McCarthy rarely takes what the defense will give him? Seems kind of stubborn as if to say "No, this is what we game planned, this is the course we're taking!!"

8 or 9 in the box ... you have to see that and check out of the run play.

I'd rather win by adapting than lose by being pigheaded doing it "my" way.


McCarthy always seems to have a difficult time adjusting. We don't see it as much because when you are winning most of the time the idea is what is there to adjust? But when the other teams do adjust it comes back to bite us. Next to his clock management this is my biggest knock on him. Actually this may be bigger.

I'm not sure if it is that he can't adjust or he won't but I do think he is too good of a coach to say he can't. That means pigheaded and stubborn are two very good words to use to describe MM.
Porforis  
#31 Posted : Monday, November 18, 2013 1:04:27 PM(UTC)
How much of the offense's success in the past from a playcall perspective fell on Rodgers' ability to change the play on the fly?
play2win  
#32 Posted : Monday, November 18, 2013 1:30:44 PM(UTC)
Porforis said: Go to Quoted Post
How much of the offense's success in the past from a playcall perspective fell on Rodgers' ability to change the play on the fly?


I would say quite a lot. That is why I want Flynn in there instead of Tolzien. Simply for the fact that he's had multiple years in our system, vs. multiple weeks since Sept., and that he has seen the defensive adjustments on the other side and has made adjustments accordingly.

Do I like Scott Tolzien and his arm, his demeanor? Yeah, but it seems he is just too inexperienced in both our system and the pro game in general. He has some very positive attributes that I believe can be groomed with some time. But, he was on the PS just two weeks ago. The good has been really good, but the bad has also been really bad. Huge mistakes. Pick sixes are tough to overcome, for any team, and, 5 INTs through 2 games?

Flynn backed up Rodgers for years, and has shown the ability to manage the team properly, and to make the throws. Breaking all-time team records for passing in nothing to sneeze at. Flynn gives us a better shot at winning in my opinion.

I think the bigger question is, can Mike McCarthy get his team ready to win? On all levels? That, and can he game plan to make Flynn more of a game manager, rather than the second coming of Aaron Rodgers? Make it more of a realistic game for Flynn to play and realize success in?

Who knows? They'll probably stick with Tolzien.
buckeyepackfan  
#33 Posted : Monday, November 18, 2013 3:57:50 PM(UTC)
play2win said: Go to Quoted Post
I would say quite a lot. That is why I want Flynn in there instead of Tolzien. Simply for the fact that he's had multiple years in our system, vs. multiple weeks since Sept., and that he has seen the defensive adjustments on the other side and has made adjustments accordingly.

Do I like Scott Tolzien and his arm, his demeanor? Yeah, but it seems he is just too inexperienced in both our system and the pro game in general. He has some very positive attributes that I believe can be groomed with some time. But, he was on the PS just two weeks ago. The good has been really good, but the bad has also been really bad. Huge mistakes. Pick sixes are tough to overcome, for any team, and, 5 INTs through 2 games?

Flynn backed up Rodgers for years, and has shown the ability to manage the team properly, and to make the throws. Breaking all-time team records for passing in nothing to sneeze at. Flynn gives us a better shot at winning in my opinion.

I think the bigger question is, can Mike McCarthy get his team ready to win? On all levels? That, and can he game plan to make Flynn more of a game manager, rather than the second coming of Aaron Rodgers? Make it more of a realistic game for Flynn to play and realize success in?

Who knows? They'll probably stick with Tolzien.


I hi-lited a section of your quote, not only Tolzien, but how many other Packers should you give the same consideration to?

I am all for the draft and develop theory, but look at this year, Ted ended up with 11 drafted or undrafted rookies on the squad, and most have been thrust into major playing time due to injuries.

These rookies along with most of the 2nd year guys, are being forced to grow up fast, and are expected to perform like 4-5 year vets.

I really hope, that when next year comes around, that Ted doesn't see the need to turn 6 draft picks into 11 and we as fans will once more be talking about "all the great potential" these guys have, only to be real disappointed when they fail at times when forced into doing something they are not ready for.

Young teams are great to watch, but I think you will find, championship teams have a good number of veteran players who have learned how to grind thorugh a whole season.

That being said, I think Tolzien is going to get his 1st win as a starting NFL qb this Sunday.

Unless of course Zero is right and we have as Steven A calls him "that baaaaaaaaaaad man" back under center.

Smile Smile Smile
Cheesey  
#34 Posted : Monday, November 18, 2013 4:53:32 PM(UTC)
With our lousy defense, it takes a Aaron
Rodgers to even have a chance to win.
If Rodgers can't play Sunday, I'd give Flynn
the start as he at least is expierienced.
But Mike McCarthy already said Tolzien gets the start.
PackFanWithTwins  
#35 Posted : Monday, November 18, 2013 5:37:46 PM(UTC)
It is a lot easier to come in and play in replacement of Rodgers, when you are throwing to Jennings, Driver, Jones, Nelson, Finley. Than when you come in missing 2 of the top 5 receiving options and missing one or two starting Olineman.
play2win  
#36 Posted : Monday, November 18, 2013 6:38:38 PM(UTC)
buckeyepackfan said: Go to Quoted Post
I hi-lited a section of your quote, not only Tolzien, but how many other Packers should you give the same consideration to?

I am all for the draft and develop theory, but look at this year, Ted ended up with 11 drafted or undrafted rookies on the squad, and most have been thrust into major playing time due to injuries.

These rookies along with most of the 2nd year guys, are being forced to grow up fast, and are expected to perform like 4-5 year vets.

I really hope, that when next year comes around, that Ted doesn't see the need to turn 6 draft picks into 11 and we as fans will once more be talking about "all the great potential" these guys have, only to be real disappointed when they fail at times when forced into doing something they are not ready for.

Young teams are great to watch, but I think you will find, championship teams have a good number of veteran players who have learned how to grind thorugh a whole season.

That being said, I think Tolzien is going to get his 1st win as a starting NFL qb this Sunday.

Unless of course Zero is right and we have as Steven A calls him "that baaaaaaaaaaad man" back under center.

Smile Smile Smile


Very different when talking about the most important position on the team. That's why I would chose Flynn. We have to win out. I'm looking ahead to DET. I would rather have Flynn get one win and some reps before heading into that Thanksgiving game. Again, 5 INTs in 2 games for Tolzien?

McCarthy feels differently, and I think that is the wrong call. I find myself trusting McCarthy less and less to make the best decisions.
dhazer  
#37 Posted : Monday, November 18, 2013 8:13:18 PM(UTC)
I am still confused on why so many say we should start Flynn, the guy couldn't even start in Buffalo when they lost their top 2 qbs. He couldn't start in Oakland or Seattle either. Hell if it is because he knows the system why not call old #4 he knows the system better than Flynn lol.


Cheesey  
#38 Posted : Monday, November 18, 2013 9:43:29 PM(UTC)
Hazer...you ask why? Because we have seen what
Tolzien can do, and are not sure he
can win for us.
What have we to lose ?
play2win  
#39 Posted : Tuesday, November 19, 2013 6:05:25 AM(UTC)
Cheesey said: Go to Quoted Post
Hazer...you ask why? Because we have seen what
Tolzien can do, and are not sure he
can win for us.
What have we to lose ?


You're right Cheesey. 5 INTs in 2 games. Those were big. If we could take 3 of those back, maybe we are 7-3 right now, instead of 5-5.

I'm not saying Flynn is good, healthy, able to make all the throws. Just that he knows the system far better than Tolzien, and has guided this Packers team to a win before. We essentially have to win out to make the playoffs. Sustaining another loss due to freakish INTs is not going to do it. We need a QB who can play a very careful game back there, with all of the chips on the line. Flynn has won a National Championship, and backed up a Super Bowl winner. I simply trust Flynn to get the job done at this point more than I do Tolzien.

I do believe both Flynn and Tolzien can win against MIN on Sunday. However, the following week v. DET might be another thing altogether. Given that, I would rather have Flynn have this MIN game to get into some kind of groove to better prepare for that Thanksgiving Day game in DET. Again, we have to win out.

This staff clearly likes Tolzien for this week better. Maybe the kid can do it. I have my doubts though after the way all of our plays were telegraphed to the NYG defense prior to the snap. They knew exactly what we were going to do. How far was Tolzien able to work in the progressions? What kind of adjustments was he able to make at the line of scrimmage? The kid has been on just the Practice Squad since Sept 2nd. Signed to the roster Nov. 6th. That was TWO WEEKS AGO! That is not a lot of time to know the system. Flynn has been an integral part of the Packers system for 4 solid years, 2008-20012, in the QB meeting room, competing for roster spots, backing up Rodgers, etc. To me, it seems like a no-brainer.
gbguy20  
#40 Posted : Tuesday, November 19, 2013 8:28:18 PM(UTC)
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