Join Our Green Bay Packers Interactive Community!

We have been providing fans with the best source of Packers information since 2006!
Your participation is greatly anticipated!
Login or Register.
4 Pages123>»
Options
Go to last post Go to first unread
Offline MintBaconDrivel  
#1 Posted : Tuesday, January 14, 2014 6:01:40 AM(UTC)
MintBaconDrivel

Rank: 3rd Round Draft Pick

United States
Joined: 12/11/2012(UTC)

Applause Received: 97

Stinging truth.

Bob McGinn wrote:
It's one thing to be confident. It's another to be smug.

Listening to Mike McCarthy, Aaron Rodgers and others last week, it would appear as if the Green Bay Packers think they can just roll the balls out next season and be a prime contender for the Super Bowl.

All this stuff about finishing strong and overcoming adversity has to stop.

The Packers didn't finish strong. They were on their home field in their kind of weather and in ideal position to beat a powerful foe in the playoff opener. Then they blew it in the last six minutes.

They also didn't overcome adversity. The Packers lose their starting quarterback for the first time in 21 years and are proud of going 2-5-1 against a soft schedule (five at home) without him?

Let's be clear about something else. The NFC North championship was more about the Detroit Lions pulling a colossal fold than the Green Bay Packers doing anything wonderful.

From the sound of things, the Packers — aside from a tweak here and a tweak there — plan to keep on operating the way they always have under Ted Thompson, Mike McCarthy and Aaron Rodgers.

In case they missed it, pro football has moved on since the Packers' lone Super Bowl in their eight seasons as partners.

While the Packers were beating the Joe Webb-quarterbacked Vikings for their only postseason triumph since the 45th Super Bowl, NFC upstarts Seattle, Carolina and San Francisco — a combined 15-33 in 2010 when Green Bay was winning it all — drafted dynamic quarterbacks and made vast improvements to marginal defenses.

It might have been a terrible year in the division, but that doesn't mean it's going to stay that way.

The Vikings panicked and missed on Christian Ponder, but with the No. 8 pick in the draft they'll probably be right back in the quarterback hunt. If the Vikings find the next Russell Wilson, Cam Newton or Colin Kaepernick, they have more than enough good young players to be right back in the division race next season and beyond.

Ill-tempered and arrogant Jim Schwartz, whose teams were always undisciplined, did get the Lions out of jail. Whoever the next coach is would be a better choice than Schwartz to erase the stench of that 1-6 finish.

And aggressive general manager Phil Emery, already having built a formidable offense, will be using every means at his disposal in an attempt to rebuild the broken defense in Chicago.

Meanwhile, in Green Bay, McCarthy on Wednesday talked about what might have been in 2013 and, as his quarterback did a day earlier, a championship window they don't foresee closing any time soon.

The Packers could forget how fortunate they were that the Lions self-destructed and bask in their third straight NFC North crown and fifth straight playoff berth.

The T-shirts around town say division champs, baby. How can you argue with success?

Or the Packers can take a long look at themselves, admit to their many shortcomings and failings and come back as a more vibrant organization under old standbys Thompson, McCarthy, Rodgers and Dom Capers.

None of those four men has any reason to feel good about the recent past.

Thompson has made his share of outstanding picks in the draft. It's his area of expertise, and his drafting record over the years is better than the norm.

Last year, Thompson went blithely along with McCarthy on the idea that Graham Harrell and B.J. Coleman were capable backups when everyone in America knew that they weren't. Given Vince Young's mental limitations, his signing Aug. 5 made no sense, either.

If Thompson hadn't dawdled for a week before bringing back Matt Flynn, the Packers might have gone 2-0 against the Giants and Vikings instead of 0-1-1.

Thompson made another mistake when he didn't sign another center after Greg Van Roten was done for the season Sept. 30. When Evan Dietrich-Smith couldn't play an entire game, at least two changes in the line had to be made and the offense fell apart against the Eagles and Lions.

A secret to the Packers' continued success has been their ability to identify core players early and sign them to slightly below-market contracts. Thompson's decision to give Morgan Burnett a big-money extension in mid-July and then watch him perform like a free agent should have rocked the franchise's draft-and-develop model.

As good as the Packers have been acquiring extra draft picks, there usually aren't enough of them to close all the holes. The safety position in Green Bay the past two years is a perfect example.

Thompson's aversion to veteran acquisition, whether through unrestricted free agency, street free agency or trade, must end for the Packers to hang with the top teams.

John Schneider, Dave Gettleman and Trent Baalke, the personnel-oriented GMs in Seattle, Carolina and San Francisco, have their teams among the final four in the NFC partly because of their veteran additions.

In the trades of 2013, look what Anquan Boldin did for the 49ers, what Alex Smith did for the Chiefs, what LeGarrette Blount did for the Patriots, what Jerry Hughes (10 sacks) did for the Bills, what Carson Palmer did for the Cardinals and what Jon Beason did for the Giants.

In free agency, some of the wise signings on offense were tight end Martellus Bennett by the Bears, guards Louis Vasquez by the Broncos and Matt Slauson by the Bears, and running back Danny Woodhead by the Chargers.

The list on defense includes ends Michael Bennett by the Seahawks and Mike DeVito by the Chiefs, nose tackle Glenn Dorsey by the 49ers, inside linebacker Karlos Dansby by the Cardinals, outside linebacker John Abraham by the Cardinals, cornerback Keenan Lewis by the Saints, safety Glover Quin by the Lions, kicker Phil Dawson by the 49ers and receiver-returner Ted Ginn Jr. by the Panthers.

Green Bay's only signing was Matthew Mulligan.

"They have no pro department up there," an executive in personnel said. "Ted does some good things in drafting but they don't do (expletive) in personnel.

"Ted has shut it down lately. They've gone stone cold. They have not been utilizing all the markets. Now it's caught up to him."

If Thompson trusts himself, pro personnel director Eliot Wolf and others in the building, he'll resume activity in free agency and seek bargain-priced or market-priced veterans to augment the draft.

As one scout put it, "You start at 8-8 when you have a franchise quarterback."

McCarthy deserves a degree of credit for developing Rodgers. He deserves blame for not being able to function better without him.

He's the quarterback/offensive/play-calling guru. He didn't get it done with Harrell, Coleman and Young, and when push came to shove he didn't get it done with Seneca Wallace or Scott Tolzien, either.

Try as he might, McCarthy failed to win a game for a month. In that period, he couldn't rally the team the way some great coaches in similar straits have done over the decades.

It also would have helped if McCarthy could have counted on his special teams more when Rodgers wasn't around to outscore the opposition. Unlike coaches that have had to make do without a great quarterback, he never had to depend on his kicking game for field position and points.

Bill Walsh never seemed to care. If McCarthy really does care, you wouldn't know it by the performance of his special teams for much of his tenure.

As for the overriding problem of injuries, McCarthy either has the most fragile or the unluckiest team in the league. The Packers need to find tougher players from the standpoint of injuries (see Eddie Lacy), but I'm not sure McCarthy or any of his advisers have a clue how to do it.

The pipeline from Thompson to the defense has all but dried up after the draft-day trade for Clay Matthews in 2009. That has placed undue burden on Capers, but as someone regarded by many in football as a top-five to top-10 coordinator it's incumbent upon him to perform better than this.

In the last four years, the Packers have ranked 28th, 26th, 26th and 29th in yards allowed per rush. Stopping the run is the foundation for any defense.

After a one-year improvement, the total of missed tackles (127) was almost back to the 2011 level (140) that sent McCarthy on an off-season tirade.

Just when it seemed the Packers could never allow as many as the 85 plays of 20 yards or more that they did two years ago, they yielded 82.

The red-zone defensive ranking was in the 20s for the third straight year, and the points-off-takeaways totals the past two years were by far the two lowest of the McCarthy era.

So many evils on defense returned to Green Bay this season.

Capers, however, has owned Jay Cutler (8-1) and Matthew Stafford (6-1), and it's a critical feather in his cap.

In 2010, Rodgers performed well in the first and third playoff games and brilliantly in the second and fourth. His pelts forever are on the wall.

Since then, in four playoff games, he outplayed the aforementioned Webb (subbing last minute for the injured Ponder) in the only victory and was outplayed by Kaepernick twice and Eli Manning once in the three defeats.

Not once in those four games did the opposing coordinators all-out blitz Rodgers, and on a mere 12.3% of passes did they even pressure with five. Just as San Francisco's Vic Fangio did last Sunday, the way to subdue Rodgers in the postseason is to make him be patient.

After review, it could be said that Rodgers gave the Packers ordinary quarterback play in his last four playoff starts.

Rodgers accepted blame Tuesday, but the only thing that matters will be if he performs a whole lot better than ordinary if and when his team returns to the postseason.

In a league set up for quarterbacks to dominate, the Packers need Rodgers to dominate. By the same token, they need Thompson, McCarthy and Capers to step up their games.

Complacency can be insidious within a National Football League operation. The Packers should have nothing to be complacent about.
Delivering the latest and most important updates on the Green Bay Packers for your convenience.
UserPostedImage
Online wpr  
#2 Posted : Tuesday, January 14, 2014 6:47:23 AM(UTC)
wpr

Rank: Hall of Famer

PackersHome NFL Pick'em - Gold: 2012PackersHome NFL Pick'em - Gold: 2013FleaFlicker Fantasy Football - Bronze: 2013

United States
Joined: 8/8/2008(UTC)

Applause Given: 3,146
Applause Received: 1,515

wow. How can you criticize an organization that was above .500? Mediocrity is king. Bob needs to be grateful there is a professional football team in WI. Wanting the team to excel is unwarranted.

Looks to me like Bob nailed every single area that GB has to work on but will not. They are no longer hungry and willing to do whatever it takes to win. These guys have their SB ring and are not going to pay the price to get a second one.
UserPostedImage

"Will you follow me, one last time?" Thorin Oakenshield
thanks Post received 1 applause.
play2win on 1/14/2014(UTC)
Offline play2win  
#3 Posted : Tuesday, January 14, 2014 6:56:33 AM(UTC)
play2win

Rank: 1st Round Draft Pick

United States
Joined: 3/29/2012(UTC)
Location: Milwaukee

Applause Given: 1,076
Applause Received: 725

It is remarkable the decline in talent we've witnessed since 2010, especially on defense. Nick Collins. Charles Woodson. Cullen Jenkins. Desmond Bishop. None have really been adequately replaced, and all four were exceptional, every down playmakers.

For instance, our starting FS, MD Jennings, had one pass break up every 417 snaps… wow. With ZERO ints.

Mike Daniels led our DL in pressures with 31, the lowest total for a Packers leader in this category since John Thierry in 2000.
http://www.jsonline.com/...9183066z1-240040961.html

Remarkable, this decline… after drafting 15 defenders since 2010, 7 in the first 4 rounds. 4 defenders drafted in the first 2 rounds amounted to next to nothing this season.

Draft & Develop. I'm seeing neither, in drafting nor developing talent. Both have left a lot to be desired. Meanwhile, we are being left in the dust. The Packers ranked 31st in Defensive Efficiency. http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef

A quick turnaround for this team's defense next year will be a complete crap shoot, especially if we don't start signing some better talent, cutting players who are not performing up to their contracts, drafting some better, more reliable players, training them to be more available physically, and coaching them properly to excel.

Message modified by user Tuesday, January 14, 2014 7:42:18 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

thanks Post received 1 applause.
wpr on 1/14/2014(UTC)
Offline Zero2Cool  
#4 Posted : Tuesday, January 14, 2014 6:57:55 AM(UTC)
Zero2Cool

Rank: Legend

Yahoo! Fantasy Football - Gold: 2009FleaFlicker Fantasy Football - Silver: 2010Yahoo! NCAA March Madness - Silver: 2011ESPN NCAA March Madness - Bronze: 2010Yahoo! NCAA March Madness - Bronze: 2013

United States
Joined: 10/13/2006(UTC)
Location: Green Bay, WI

Applause Given: 1,966
Applause Received: 2,223

Originally Posted by: wpr Go to Quoted Post
Looks to me like Bob nailed every single area that GB has to work on but will not. They are no longer hungry and willing to do whatever it takes to win. These guys have their SB ring and are not going to pay the price to get a second one.


Pretty much how I feel right there. Coaches always saying how proud of the guys they are. How the guys played so well. Sometimes, you need to be the coach, not their friend and you need to tell them 'hey you screwed up'. Perhaps that is said behind closed doors and the whole "everything is peachie" is just the public mantra.

I am fine with mistakes. What I do not like to see is the same mistakes over and over and over again. When are our linebackers going to PLAY FAST? When will the defense be counted on for a critical 3rd down stop? When will the QB start playing hot potato instead of 'how long can i hold the potato making my OL look like garbage in the process?'


The problem with this team isn't the talent. It's the mindset. It's as if the Packers are waiting for the NFL to come to them with everything lining up perfect like it did in 2010 rather than adjusting and making the necessary changes to adapt and conquer.


Listen to other teams players. They talk about what they seen in the film room. I heard numerous quotes from 49ers, Seahawks, Broncos and Patriots this weekend about just that. Initial observation is their players are smarter and more dedicated.


And the Packers simply play to not lose and play safe.
"I do not think there is any thrill that can go through the human heart like that felt by the inventor as he sees some creation of the brain unfolding to success... such emotions make a man forget food, sleep, friends, love, everything." - Nikola Tesla

UserPostedImage
thanks Post received 3 applause.
play2win on 1/14/2014(UTC), Mucky Tundra on 1/14/2014(UTC), wpr on 1/14/2014(UTC)
Offline hardrocker950  
#5 Posted : Tuesday, January 14, 2014 7:03:35 AM(UTC)
hardrocker950

Rank: 5th Round Draft Pick

Joined: 11/10/2009(UTC)

Applause Given: 72
Applause Received: 88

Originally Posted by: wpr Go to Quoted Post
wow. How can you criticize an organization that was above .500? Mediocrity is king. Bob needs to be grateful there is a professional football team in WI. Wanting the team to excel is unwarranted.

Looks to me like Bob nailed every single area that GB has to work on but will not. They are no longer hungry and willing to do whatever it takes to win. These guys have their SB ring and are not going to pay the price to get a second one.


Sadly I believe this is true. This team has been regressing since they won the Lombardi. If the team and staff don't get their heads out of their asses - it will be a long time before it happens again.

Come on Ted - get us some veterans to fill some key positions man!
"I enjoy being just one of 53 on the team." - Aaron Rodgers
thanks Post received 1 applause.
wpr on 1/14/2014(UTC)
Offline play2win  
#6 Posted : Tuesday, January 14, 2014 7:33:14 AM(UTC)
play2win

Rank: 1st Round Draft Pick

United States
Joined: 3/29/2012(UTC)
Location: Milwaukee

Applause Given: 1,076
Applause Received: 725

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool Go to Quoted Post
Pretty much how I feel right there. Coaches always saying how proud of the guys they are. How the guys played so well. Sometimes, you need to be the coach, not their friend and you need to tell them 'hey you screwed up'. Perhaps that is said behind closed doors and the whole "everything is peachie" is just the public mantra.

I am fine with mistakes. What I do not like to see is the same mistakes over and over and over again. When are our linebackers going to PLAY FAST? When will the defense be counted on for a critical 3rd down stop? When will the QB start playing hot potato instead of 'how long can i hold the potato making my OL look like garbage in the process?'


The problem with this team isn't the talent. It's the mindset. It's as if the Packers are waiting for the NFL to come to them with everything lining up perfect like it did in 2010 rather than adjusting and making the necessary changes to adapt and conquer.


Listen to other teams players. They talk about what they seen in the film room. I heard numerous quotes from 49ers, Seahawks, Broncos and Patriots this weekend about just that. Initial observation is their players are smarter and more dedicated.


And the Packers simply play to not lose and play safe.


I agree about our team needing a different mindset altogether. I disagree about the talent. I think our lack of talent is a HUGE problem. Our LBs look like dog shit compared to many teams around the league. Our Safeties, even worse.

Nick Perry played in 17 games, in TWO YEARS! Available for half of our games in 2 seasons.

Clay Matthews played in 23 out of the 34 games played in that same span.

AJ Hawk, God love him, always shows up, missed only 2 games in the last 8 years. After a rough 2011 and 2012 he came back and performed well.

After that, what do we have? And, we run a 3-4! Out of the three players worthy of mention, two of them missed a total of 28 games over the past two seasons.

Add to this, we are probably the youngest team in the NFL over the last 4 seasons. Without veteran leadership, many of these younger players lack the proper commitment and preparation habits to enter a game. I believe Tramon Williams alluded to this recently.

This Packers defense lacks talent, experience and proper coaching. It appears to lack heart, brains and drive to be the best. Miscues for 20+ yd gains nearly equal to the epic, historically bad 2011 team.

Our front office, Ted and his personnel staff, Mike McCarthy and Dom Capers all have to make some serious changes if we are going to be able to contend with the likes of SF, SEA, NE and DEN, et al.

Will they? I have my doubts.

Zero2Cool, I agree, I'm tired of the lip service from Mike McCarthy and Dom Capers. That's BS. Let's see some fucking action. Make some changes, make some tough calls regarding coaching positions. Do some homework and find better replacements.

Mike won't. I'll be shocked to see this change in GB under Mike McCarthy.

And, I'm tired to Ted Thompson ignoring FA altogether. I don't want to hear about UDFAs and 3rd and 4th tier FAs. I want us to sign some real, legit talent at key positions that have been crying out to be addressed for 3 years. Just give us one or two real, legit talents added to our D. Please!

Message modified by user Tuesday, January 14, 2014 7:44:26 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

thanks Post received 2 applause.
rabidgopher04 on 1/14/2014(UTC), wpr on 1/14/2014(UTC)
Offline steveishere  
#7 Posted : Tuesday, January 14, 2014 7:38:07 AM(UTC)
steveishere

Rank: 2nd Round Draft Pick

FleaFlicker Fantasy Football - Gold: 2013

Joined: 7/28/2012(UTC)

Applause Given: 48
Applause Received: 981

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool Go to Quoted Post


The problem with this team isn't the talent. It's the mindset. It's as if the Packers are waiting for the NFL to come to them with everything lining up perfect like it did in 2010 rather than adjusting and making the necessary changes to adapt and conquer.

.


I don't really agree with that. This team specifically in the playoff game was significantly out talented by the 49ers (especially after Shields and Neal were down early) but they played their asses off and SF had to win at the last second. Outside of a player or two they never looked like they packed it up and coasted this year. I think with Rodgers and with everyone healthy this team is as good as every other top team but you really just can't expect everyone to be healthy anymore.

Sure I guess you could say the Packers are "getting left behind" by the top teams in the NFL but the gap is not really significant. I agree that they should probably change some things this year because some of the plans last year really failed (Expecting Coleman and McMillian to make a jump to being quality players). Players like MD Jennings are not starting quality and while they don't need super stars at every position to have success they need players better than Jennings.
thanks Post received 1 applause.
StoicFire on 1/14/2014(UTC)
Offline musccy  
#8 Posted : Tuesday, January 14, 2014 8:10:29 AM(UTC)
musccy

Rank: 1st Round Draft Pick

Joined: 5/7/2009(UTC)
Location: Pennsylvania

Applause Given: 251
Applause Received: 234

Quote:
While the Packers were beating the Joe Webb-quarterbacked Vikings ...NFC upstarts Seattle, Carolina and San Francisco — a combined 15-33 in 2010 when Green Bay was winning it all — drafted dynamic quarterbacks and made vast improvements to marginal defenses.


When you are 15-33 you have first crack at top draft talent. You SHOULD be on the upswing. Additionally how much are those 3 franchises paying for their starting QB? Between SF and Sea it was about 2.3 million, COMBINED, which means you can afford...

Quote:
John Schneider, Dave Gettleman and Trent Baalke, the personnel-oriented GMs in Seattle, Carolina and San Francisco, have their teams among the final four in the NFC partly because of their veteran additions.


Quote:
A secret to the Packers' continued success has been their ability to identify core players early and sign them to slightly below-market contracts. Thompson's decision to give Morgan Burnett a big-money extension in mid-July and then watch him perform like a free agent should have rocked the franchise's draft-and-develop model.


So don't sign Burnett because we should have known he'd flop and be complacent like many other F.As? Instead, the much better option was to play F.A. roulette so we DON'T have a player flop like a F.A. WTF?!?Brick wall

I too wouldn't mind some F.A. acquisitions and a change in the way things are run, but this article was a waste of time, littered with revisionist history and contradictions.
thanks Post received 1 applause.
QCHuskerFan on 1/14/2014(UTC)
Offline play2win  
#9 Posted : Tuesday, January 14, 2014 9:57:36 AM(UTC)
play2win

Rank: 1st Round Draft Pick

United States
Joined: 3/29/2012(UTC)
Location: Milwaukee

Applause Given: 1,076
Applause Received: 725

Originally Posted by: musccy Go to Quoted Post
When you are 15-33 you have first crack at top draft talent. You SHOULD be on the upswing. Additionally how much are those 3 franchises paying for their starting QB? Between SF and Sea it was about 2.3 million, COMBINED, which means you can afford...





So don't sign Burnett because we should have known he'd flop and be complacent like many other F.As? Instead, the much better option was to play F.A. roulette so we DON'T have a player flop like a F.A. WTF?!?Brick wall

I too wouldn't mind some F.A. acquisitions and a change in the way things are run, but this article was a waste of time, littered with revisionist history and contradictions.


Those are good points musccy. Since 2001, the SB winners are BAL, NE, TB, PIT, IND, NYG, NO and GB.

8 teams in 14 years. BAL, NE, PIT and NYG all won 2 or more.

BAL, PIT, NYG are all feeling the effects of the big contracts to top players, especially at QB.

There is a new breed coming in. Teams who have struck it rich with young QBs who are making names for themselves (SF, SEA, IND, CIN), and DEN with old, reliable Peyton Manning. Then, there is NE, who continually seems to be in contention, immune to Brady's contract…

We missed a shot to double up on Lombardi's, but we are not done. All we have to do is retool some key areas and we are back in it. Running game was shored up last season, OL shored up as well, and both areas look promising. WR looks pretty good with the emergence of Boykin. Now, if we can just get our DL, LB and S troubles put to bed, we may find ourselves back in it before too long.

I don't think anyone thought the Burnett signing a bad one at the time. Personally, I think he is playing out of position, and would make a better FS. Add quality talent to the SS spot, and some real pass rush on our DL, and he could wind up flourishing at FS. He was a pick machine in college.

If Ted were to add one or two top FA talents at S and one of the LB positions, or possibly a DL position, we would really have a legit chance of turning this around sooner rather than later.
Offline musccy  
#10 Posted : Tuesday, January 14, 2014 10:15:44 AM(UTC)
musccy

Rank: 1st Round Draft Pick

Joined: 5/7/2009(UTC)
Location: Pennsylvania

Applause Given: 251
Applause Received: 234

I don't dispute the justification for McGinn's article, I just feel that it was poorly conceived and argued.

The Packers, Ravens, Saints, etc. are at a disadvantage having to pay their QBs top dollar. The Packers were getting Rodgers for (relatively) cheap in 2010, and it's no coincidence that the team afforded more talent around him. That doesn't mean it can't be done, the Patriots have clearly found a way to have sustained success with a lot of money paid to your QB...it just isn't easy and you have much less margin for error in drafts and FA acquisitions.

Props to Carolina, SF, and Sea for drafting well but McGinn and others just shouldn't ignore that the big reason for their success is that they have recently drafted high (although well...Browns draft high too) and found their franchise QB for discount dollars. Wilson is making about 870k, Kaep about 1.5 mil, I think Richard Sherman is under a 1mil cap hit as well. If Wilson was paid the 10+mil, as he "should be" would they have been able to afford Avril and Bennett this offseason???

Rss Feed 
Users browsing this topic
Guest
4 Pages123>»
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

Notification

Icon
Error

Tweeter

Recent Topics
1m / Green Bay Packers Talk / wpr

9m / Green Bay Packers Talk / wpr

15m / Green Bay Packers Talk / wpr

18m / Green Bay Packers Talk / wpr

7h / Green Bay Packers Talk / nerdmann

7h / Green Bay Packers Talk / nerdmann

10h / Green Bay Packers Talk / porky88

10h / Green Bay Packers Talk / sschind

19h / Green Bay Packers Talk / packman82

21h / Green Bay Packers Talk / nerdmann

22-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / macbob

21-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / Mucky Tundra

21-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

20-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / Since69

20-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / TheKanataThrilla