play2win
9 years ago

Almost everyone is wrong. 40 time is highly valued when it comes to the drafting of prospects. To skewer me for valuing them, also, is ironic.

The evidence doesn't back my assertions? No, there is no evidence that backs yours. It probably matters, though, exactly what issue we're debating. I'm pointing to the idea that the NFL community values 40 times very highly. Your rail against me, is perceived, by me, as a rail against the NFL community which I'm not a part of.

You can try to obfuscate the issues with Borland but you know his 40 time was a monumental negative against him. Let me interject Michael Sam into this discussion. This has been painted as an issue as something other than what it actually is. Go look at Michael Sam's 3 cone time and then see where it fits among other prospects. I don't need a lecture from you, and others, how 3 cone isn't really important. Just look at his number and do a little research and you'll have a giant hint as to why he went undrafted.

Will be interesting to see what the Packers value more... A big strong WR like Harper, or a speedy measurables guy like Janis. Unless Abbrederis goes Ricky Elmore, he's a lock to make the 53 to me.

Maybe, they'll value neither and both won't make it.

Originally Posted by: uffda udfa 



No one here is saying 40 times are not highly valued in drafting players. I think everyone here is pretty much in line with a player's 40 time not being a sole consideration in choosing to draft them, but we understand there is a value attached to them, and speed is significantly important. Other factors come into play too, and some clearly carry greater weight in their decision making. Who was doing the measuring? How was the time recorded? Some teams have a personal preference to measure their own, for many reasons.

You simply buy into whatever a Combine or Pro Day result may be because that is pretty much all you have to go on as a fan. Sure, those give an indication of what we might expect from a player regarding how fast he is, but it is not a comprehensive factor in how he will perform as a football player. Teams have other means at their disposals for determining a player's game speed, and they pay good money for those. Private workouts, scouting visits, etc. They also are not locked into a 40 time as a complete representation of a player's on field abilities.

I think all of us recognize the great speed Sam Shields plays with, and how that can set him apart from many of the opposing players he covers. Hell, I love that speed. I love fast players too, but not just fast. I want the most complete football players we can land on a Packers roster. But, the 40 time is not all there is to love about Shields' ability to play the game. Same is true for all of the other players you have been whining about for the last month since the draft. Really, it is tiresome. Enough already with 40 times. We get it. We all want fast players. Some of us are willing to recognize a 40 time is not going to determine exactly how well a player will perform on the field.

The 40 isn't everything.
Dexter_Sinister
9 years ago
3 cone and short shuttle give some indication of quickness. Hayward for example was very good with those measurable.

The vertical and bench reps are a good indication of power.

40 gives you an indication of top end speed, but most routes are less than 40 yards in a straight line.

Abbredaris is a good example of quick vs fast. He runs some pretty sick routes.

But no coach in his right mind will take a tape measure over video tape.

For example, Taylor Mays had some incredible measurable. Height, weight, speeed... he sucked as a player though.
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uffda udfa
9 years ago
I hope you read that article...it was excellent. It focused on Shane Skov...a guy with great tape but ran a terrible 40 (injured) and did not get drafted. I believe some here were pining for him during the draft.

This is a critical component of the 40 time... as noted by the article... the draft cards have NAME... HEIGHT....WEIGHT...and 40 TIME...nothing else. 40 time appears to be pretty important. Anyway, here's what Niners GM Trent Baalke had to say about how the Niners use the 40 from that linked article:

"We rate their play speed, then go to a pro day or the combine and get the real time," Baalke said. "You hope they match. What's hard is when you like a player and think he plays fast, and then he runs slow. Then you have a real tough dilemma to sort through."

If I'm to talke Baalke at face value it appears that tape gets trumped by 40 time in shorts when it shows slower than what they thought. A guy the Niners may have been high on due what they felt his play speed was all of a sudden isn't quite such a hot prospect when the guy goes out and runs a slow 40 time. Hopefully, our guys who clocked unimpressive 40's are much faster than the stopwatch says. As Ted Thompson said of Adams and his 4.56...that's not our time. I'm guessing Ted Thompson timed him much better only reinforcing the idea that 40 time is pretty imperative.

Chris Harper ran 4.38 at his pro day. Will be fun to watch him in pre-season and see if he looks more like 4.38 or more toward his below average speed. Same with Janis... will he be as fast? I know someone out there who thinks we can't learn anything by seeing guys on TV, bu I have a feeling we'll be able to figure this one out with our idiot box.
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Ted Thompson sits on his hands per former GM: "because they’ve had 25 fricking years of great quarterbacks. Of course it works. Try it without a special quarterback."


uffda udfa
9 years ago
Duplicate post.
UserPostedImage
Ted Thompson sits on his hands per former GM: "because they’ve had 25 fricking years of great quarterbacks. Of course it works. Try it without a special quarterback."


Dulak
9 years ago
I never though the packers really hired fast 40 time receivers.

IMO we looked for the total package.

Im quite interested in how our WRs do this year. I see only nelson and cobb as a lock - rest are up in the air; ok maybe our 2nd round pick. Wish we kept jones thou. Who knows maybe I wont care after seeing these new guys play.

play2win
9 years ago

I never though the packers really hired fast 40 time receivers.

IMO we looked for the total package.

Im quite interested in how our WRs do this year. I see only nelson and cobb as a lock - rest are up in the air; ok maybe our 2nd round pick. Wish we kept jones thou. Who knows maybe I wont care after seeing these new guys play.

Originally Posted by: Dulak 



Dulak, you really won't care at all. The amount of talent they have added to the position is insanely good. ! I liked Jones too, but they look like they have made some significant upgrades.
StarrMax1
9 years ago

I hope you read that article...it was excellent. It focused on Shane Skov...a guy with great tape but ran a terrible 40 (injured) and did not get drafted. I believe some here were pining for him during the draft.

This is a critical component of the 40 time... as noted by the article... the draft cards have NAME... HEIGHT....WEIGHT...and 40 TIME...nothing else. 40 time appears to be pretty important. Anyway, here's what Niners GM Trent Baalke had to say about how the Niners use the 40 from that linked article:

"We rate their play speed, then go to a pro day or the combine and get the real time," Baalke said. "You hope they match. What's hard is when you like a player and think he plays fast, and then he runs slow. Then you have a real tough dilemma to sort through."

If I'm to talke Baalke at face value it appears that tape gets trumped by 40 time in shorts when it shows slower than what they thought. A guy the Niners may have been high on due what they felt his play speed was all of a sudden isn't quite such a hot prospect when the guy goes out and runs a slow 40 time. Hopefully, our guys who clocked unimpressive 40's are much faster than the stopwatch says. As Ted Thompson said of Adams and his 4.56...that's not our time. I'm guessing Ted Thompson timed him much better only reinforcing the idea that 40 time is pretty imperative.

Chris Harper ran 4.38 at his pro day. Will be fun to watch him in pre-season and see if he looks more like 4.38 or more toward his below average speed. Same with Janis... will he be as fast? I know someone out there who thinks we can't learn anything by seeing guys on TV, bu I have a feeling we'll be able to figure this one out with our idiot box.

Originally Posted by: uffda udfa 



You do realize you are arguing with yourself.

Nobody is saying a players 40 time isn't important, DURING THE DRAFT PERIOD.

You just stated "it will be interesting to see if Harper looks more like 4.38 or more toward his below average speed."

Maybe you don't even realize you switched from talking about a straight 40 time and started talking about "football speed".

There is a HUGE difference.

Every player I have ever seen interviewed says pretty much the same thing, they go to the combines and do all these drills to either improve their draft status or in some cases just to get noticed(I:E: Janis).

To a player they all say now that they either were drafted or invited to a camp, it doesn't matter how they got there, they are just glad they can finally put on the pads and show their perspective teams that they can play the game at a Profesional level.

Can someone tell me,(because I have never been able to attend an OTA or TC practice), how long do coaches spend on timing players in the 40 yd dash at these practices?
play2win
9 years ago


Can someone tell me,(because I have never been able to attend an OTA or TC practice), how long do coaches spend on timing players in the 40 yd dash at these practices?

Originally Posted by: StarrMax1 



Zero. 😆 Not a second...
texaspackerbacker
9 years ago
Harper was one of the reasons (along with Boykin and the 2 or 3 or more others we already had) that I really didn't think Ted would draft a WR, much less two (make that three). I'm happy with Adams, and very pleased we got Abbrederis, but it still creates a problem or at least a question mark.

If you assume the top five are fairly sure, then as was said, it's Jaris v Harper as well as the others. Odds are, though, somebody will get some kind of injury that either is or can be stretched worthy of IR or PUP.

With so many "skilled players" (I don't like that term), the question becomes how many TEs, WRs, and RBs can we keep without messing with depth other places?.

My early and very shaky prediction is Harper does not make the team and Jaris goes to the PS - for a while, at least. That leaves 5 WRs, 3 RBs, and maybe as many as 5 TEs.
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DakotaT
9 years ago



My early and very shaky prediction is Harper does not make the team and Jaris goes to the PS - for a while, at least. That leaves 5 WRs, 3 RBs, and maybe as many as 5 TEs.

Originally Posted by: texaspackerbacker 



I don't know why we need 5 mediocre tight ends, when we should bring in a hammerhead fullback not named John Kuhn just to block for the three headed monster named Lacy/Starks/Harris.
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