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Offline nyrpack  
#41 Posted : Friday, July 4, 2014 8:17:30 AM(UTC)
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let me think about this...... yesssss !!
Offline play2win  
#42 Posted : Friday, July 4, 2014 8:45:19 AM(UTC)
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I have to admit, our coaching staff loves to use a hybrid TE. I just dont see them forking over those high picks and giant cash to make a Graham trade happen.

As feature receivers, both players have roughly 3800 yds receiving over the last 4 seasons, with Graham having 41 TDs to Nelson's 32.
Offline uffda udfa  
#43 Posted : Friday, July 4, 2014 1:11:59 PM(UTC)
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The Packers did try featuring Finley many times and he simply did not and could not put up numbers like Graham. The guy is 6'7. 6'7! Red zone issues...SOLVED. That is such a HUGE part of the NFL game. The difference between a FG attempt and a TD is gigantic.

Trying to compare Jordy Nelson to Jimmy Graham is odd to me. Graham was ruled a TE not a WR. For the sake of argument Graham is now being considered a WR? That doesn't make much sense. Finley was as much a hybrid TE as Graham. If memory serves, in the past, Finley groused about how he should be viewed when it came to paying him as he felt he was more of a WR.

Graham runs 4.53 at 6'7.... he's faster than our new 2nd round WR and 6 inches taller. This guy is special and it's a little insulting for me to read that he's like Jordy Nelson who plays a different position and doesn't offer what Jimmy does. Jordy as a WR is nowhere near as good as Graham is as a TE. It isn't close. Graham is loved in his locker room and works and works to be better and better. He'd be a tremendous fit in that regard. Plus, you know Ted Thompson has a soft spot for guys with stories like Jimmy's.

I just keep thinking if Rodgers could make something for James Jones with his limited speed and athleticism how much could he do with someone who has tons of it? Nelson on another team isn't likely as good as he is with us. I love Jordy...think he's a very good WR. He's just not in the same zip code when it comes to what he offers vs. what Jimmy Graham offers. Graham is one of the few incredibly special pass catchers in the NFL. Rodgers has yet to have a guy like that. Brett had his Sterling for a little while. Aaron hasn't had his and maybe never will.

As for the caution on the cap... that's a good point, however, with the TV games on Thursdays and now half of them simulcast by CBS, the money is growing and growing. I believe the NFL has a good handle on money and don't think it's all that risky to believe the cap will be much higher in the next year and the ones following.

Again, the GREAT teams are relentless about trying to get better and better. Draft and develop is something all 32 teams do not just us so that philosophy is beaten by teams who draft and develop AND add stars. Peppers is a nice attempt at improving but he's 30 freaking four. I hope he can squeeze a good year or two out of that old body of his. The one big move we made comes riddled with question marks and rightly so. Jimmy Graham comes with no such questions as his arrow is pointing the opposite of Peppers. Saying we added Peppers and should be content is wrong to me as, again, we don't know if he has anything left. A guy like Graham is in the prime years of being a terror on the football field.

I wish to see a 2nd ring in the Rodgers era. It will more likely be accomplished by going for it than playing safe hoping you get that anomalous season every 10-15 years. We have the best passer ever to throw the football on our roster right now. Why would you not give him a Jimmy Graham? Richard Rodgers and Davante Adams are good enough? Ugh, I hate that thinking. Ron Wolf lamented he never gave Brett enough weapons. Ted Thompson may have the same regrets.

Jordy is not a dominant WR. He's very good...not dominant. We're not even sure who our real #1 is because there's not much of a gap or one at all between him and Randall. Graham is better than both of them and he's a TE. Win...now. Aaron is 30... his best years are fading. Give him the help TODAY, not wish and hope that a few years down the line Adams and Richard Rodgers might be solid players. Very good is not good enough. Winning isn't everything it's the only thing...and signing Graham squares more with Lombardi's philosophy than draft and develop ever will regardless of how successful it's been which is really masked by having a great QB for 25 years.
thanks Post received 1 applause.
lolleren on 7/5/2014(UTC)
Offline dhazer  
#44 Posted : Friday, July 4, 2014 2:03:39 PM(UTC)
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uffda udfa said: Go to Quoted Post
What's the precedent? Ted Thompson tried trading for Tony Gonzalez years back...same for Randy Moss. If there is the potential to add a special player, Ted Thompson will do his "due diligence". There is no way I can conceive of that he wouldn't be doing "due diligence" on the Graham situation. That guy changes games. Special player.

I find it odd that people are referring to Quarless and Taylor????? as SOLID? Huh? Wow, that is way overvauling your own. Quarless is JAG and Taylor doesn't and hasn't played on offense very much. Finley was an 8+ million dollar a year player, as valued by the Packers. I think most of us would say he was nowhere near an 8 million dollar player for us...ever. Quarless makes 7 times less than what Finley made as our #1 TE if we're talking cap hit. Jermichael's cap hit was 8.75 million last season, Q's is 1.25 million.

If you were okay with 8.75 million for Jermichael, I don't know why you'd have a problem to have a truly special player for a few million more.

Our roster has been TE heavy for the past few years. Obviously, this franchise greatly values that position and it shows that they were willing to pay and pay big for a guy like Finley who has never produced like Graham. Finley has started 48 games and amassed 20 TD's. Graham has started 36 games and amassed 41 TD's. So, about every 2.5 games you can count on a TD from Finley. Meanwhile, in every game, on average, you can count on one from Graham.

The GREAT teams go out and add things... Seattle kept adding last year Avril, Bennett...did they really need to trade for Harvin? No. Went to the SB without any help from him, and then used his help in it and thrashed Denver. Did SF need Anquan Boldin? Did the great Niners and Cowboys of old need Deion Sanders? This idea that Green Bay is okay/good enough is deadly to winning another SB. The whole we have Aaron Rodgers and our O is going to be great sounds eerily similar to the many years Packers fans said the same exact things when Favre was under center. Net result...1 ring in Favre era. We got our 1 ring in Favre era when we went for it by signing Reggie White, Sean Jones, Santana Dotson, etc... Our ring in the Rodgers era seems to be a totally anomaly. Haven't been back to an NFC Championship game since, or even sniffed one. We aren't good enough, haven't been good enough and adding Julius Peppers is a potential right kind of move to help get us back. Graham is on that same line of thought. This Ted Thompson "we think we're pretty good and we like the guys we've got" has been bought by the fanbase. Rodgers covers a multitude of sins.

If you can get Jimmy Graham and it isn't going to absolutely derail you, you have to try and do it. The great teams do things like that....it'll be crushing to see a Seattle or New England go get him, or some other on the cusp team.

If we added Graham, somehow, we could cut Quarless (who didn't participate in the off season program at all which is terrible for your "#1 TE") and save a little off the cap. If we could give Finley 8.75 of our cap last year and we can save close to a million with Quarless...that puts us close to 10 million toward Graham. However, the Peppers contract might have been given due to Jermichael being a FA and not having to commit that money to him.

Packers are an esitmated 13.6 million under the cap. We could cut the following players at these cap savings to improve our standing...plus cap is going to go way up over the next few years.
1) Tramon Williams-- 7.5 million (would have to eat 2 mil to gain the 7.5 but might be worth it)
2) Brad Jones-- 1.925 million
3) Jarrett Bush--- 1.7 million
4) Derek Sherrod--1.25 million
5) Jamari Lattimore--1.43 million
6) BJ Raji-- 3.5 million
7) Andrew Quarless-- 900k
8) Bryan Bulaga--2.66 Million
****Hawk's release would net us 1.9 million, but I can't see the Packers eating 3.2 million for him not to play for us****


----I could make a case for any or all of those guys not making the team this year. I can't wait to see pre-season action and read about TC. If we have guys who are playing well at those positions above, we won't need to spend as much on some of these guys. Tramon is the big fish. How much better are we with him vs. who would have to replace him at that cap savings if he's gone? I don't know if the guy next after Tramon is 7.5 millon dollars worse.

Start playing with the figures above and subtract some combo of them off the books and I don't see why we couldn't afford Graham and both Jordy and Randall, but that money would come from the 13.6 million left and what savings we can come up with by releasing some of our veterans. Letting Tramon go puts at over 21 million in cap space with that cap climbing over the next few years.

On an unrelated note...it is sad that our D chews up nearly 68 million of our cap while our offense checks in at only almost 52 million. Our D hasn't been good as we all know, but to know we're spending that much on it to get what we're getting is really sad.

EDIT: The current salary cap is 133 million. The salary cap jumped by 10 million from 2013-2014 and is expected to jump at least another 10 million next year. Projections are that it will likely be over 150 million by 2016. So, in essence, the Rodgers cap hit will be absorbed by the rise in the cap next year. We will have plenty of green to dole out for extensions to Jordy and Randall if cap is going up another 10 million.


So looking at your list you suggest we get rid of 5 maybe 6 starters so we can bring in a TE. I saw if we brought him we just trade CM3 for Graham. We would get about the same amount of production for the cost from both. CM3 is way over paid and I wouldn't mind seeing him gone. Hell he only plays 1/2 the season anyway and collects his 15 million,
Offline uffda udfa  
#45 Posted : Friday, July 4, 2014 4:53:48 PM(UTC)
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dhazer said: Go to Quoted Post
So looking at your list you suggest we get rid of 5 maybe 6 starters so we can bring in a TE. I saw if we brought him we just trade CM3 for Graham. We would get about the same amount of production for the cost from both. CM3 is way over paid and I wouldn't mind seeing him gone. Hell he only plays 1/2 the season anyway and collects his 15 million,


Nobody on the list of guys I posted are irreplaceable. Tramon is the big fish and the toughest call. I wouldn't have much issue with seeing the rest of that list gone. BTW, I never said cut them all...I said we could cut some salary cap by cutting one, or some combo.

Also, none of that is even necessary to bringing Graham into the fold... it's just a picture of the way we can finagle the cap to accommodate certain moves like Randall, Jordy and potentially the longshot of Jimmy Graham wearing the "G".

Signing Peppers was a sign of what? Going for it for THIS year. Peppers is not going to be around for very long...we all know that. He was signed during Aaron's prime window for another ring. If we're going all in this season which Peppers signing is a reflection of why stop there IF it's possible to get Jimmy here.

Unlike most, I see his potential addition as a major need not a luxury. I ripped our TE group days ago before the story broke that Graham's franchise number was going to be 5.3 million less than he was hoping for. Now, discontent really comes into play on Graham's part and the Saints don't have anywhere the flexibility we do. Perhaps, they start ditching cap to keep him real soon.

Getting Graham would be TT's close equivalent of Wolf bringing Reggie to Green Bay. Ted Thompson learned under Wolf. He's yet to make a huge signature move as to an addition of superstar status. Woodson was thought to be near his end when we scooped him and Peppers even further near his end. Ted Thompson has not brought a superstar in his prime to Green Bay in his tenure. Ted Thompson can and will surprise you...I hope to be pleasantly surprised.
Offline uffda udfa  
#46 Posted : Friday, July 4, 2014 5:16:04 PM(UTC)
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Here's a piece on where things stand between the Saints and Jimmy Graham... will be an interesting 11 days:

http://profootballtalk.n...reduced-offer-to-graham/
Offline SINCITYCHEEZE  
#47 Posted : Friday, July 4, 2014 6:19:09 PM(UTC)
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Two First Round Picks for Graham!?!?!?!? Who do they think we are????......................................
THE VIKINGS!!!!!!!![laughing] Flapper Tongue [neener] Vikings Razz
thanks Post received 4 applause.
uffda udfa on 7/4/2014(UTC), nerdmann on 7/4/2014(UTC), play2win on 7/4/2014(UTC), Dexter_Sinister on 7/7/2014(UTC)
Offline StarrMax1  
#48 Posted : Friday, July 4, 2014 10:56:09 PM(UTC)
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ackers are an esitmated 13.6 million under the cap. We could cut the following players at these cap savings to improve our standing...plus cap is going to go way up over the next few years.
1) Tramon Williams-- 7.5 million (would have to eat 2 mil to gain the 7.5 but might be worth it)
2) Brad Jones-- 1.925 million
3) Jarrett Bush--- 1.7 million
4) Derek Sherrod--1.25 million
5) Jamari Lattimore--1.43 million
6) BJ Raji-- 3.5 million
7) Andrew Quarless-- 900k
8) Bryan Bulaga--2.66 Million
****Hawk's release would net us 1.9 million, but I can't see the Packers eating 3.2 million for him not to play for us****

Jones, Lattimore and Possibly Hawk, well, that leaves 2013 7th round pick Sam Barrington as you veteran ILB, this is just to laughable to be serious.
You want to dump 8 maybe 9 players from the current roster, and give up 2 1st rnd picks, for Graham?

Ted would never give up the 2 1st rnd picks, and i sure as hell hope he wouldn't be dumb enough to gut his defense and weeken his O-line just to sign a TE, no matter how good he is.

Ted pulls off that move and The Packers are looking at losing seasons for years to come.

The 80's just called, they love the move!!!!!!
thanks Post received 2 applause.
play2win on 7/5/2014(UTC), Dexter_Sinister on 7/7/2014(UTC)
Offline uffda udfa  
#49 Posted : Saturday, July 5, 2014 2:00:39 AM(UTC)
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StarrMax1 said: Go to Quoted Post
ackers are an esitmated 13.6 million under the cap. We could cut the following players at these cap savings to improve our standing...plus cap is going to go way up over the next few years.
1) Tramon Williams-- 7.5 million (would have to eat 2 mil to gain the 7.5 but might be worth it)
2) Brad Jones-- 1.925 million
3) Jarrett Bush--- 1.7 million
4) Derek Sherrod--1.25 million
5) Jamari Lattimore--1.43 million
6) BJ Raji-- 3.5 million
7) Andrew Quarless-- 900k
8) Bryan Bulaga--2.66 Million
****Hawk's release would net us 1.9 million, but I can't see the Packers eating 3.2 million for him not to play for us****

Jones, Lattimore and Possibly Hawk, well, that leaves 2013 7th round pick Sam Barrington as you veteran ILB, this is just to laughable to be serious.
You want to dump 8 maybe 9 players from the current roster, and give up 2 1st rnd picks, for Graham?

Ted would never give up the 2 1st rnd picks, and i sure as hell hope he wouldn't be dumb enough to gut his defense and weeken his O-line just to sign a TE, no matter how good he is.

Ted pulls off that move and The Packers are looking at losing seasons for years to come.

The 80's just called, they love the move!!!!!!


These kind of replies are mindboggling. NOWHERE did I say we should cut all these guys. I posted it as a guide to keep an eye on where this team might find some cap relief for any reason, Jimmy Graham related included.

I wholeheartedly disagree with the notion that giving up 2 1st rounders sets us back. You have to keep in mind that getting Graham is almost assuredly better than ANYONE you're going to draft in the 20-32 range. So, losing 1 first rounder for Graham is a no brainer to me. That 2nd 1st is a little tougher to swallow but if I look at how things go for the Packers to think we might draft a Sherrod and Harrell with our 1's over the next two years, how does that set us back if we traded for Graham. The odds we hit huge on both 1st's over the next two seasons is minute. Give me consecutive years 1st rounders that Ted Thompson has found superstars. Rodgers, Hawk, Harrell, Jordy(2nd rounder in trade out of 1st round), BJ Raji, Bryan Bulaga, Sherrod, Perry, Datone Jones, Ha Ha. Who is the best pairing back to back years? We won't be drafting a QB and that is the money position on any team so we won't be missing on a franchise QB in the next two seasons. I would trade any 2 year stretch of 1st rounders for Jimmy Graham save for the one that included Aaron Rodgers.

The mindset of not wanting to give up 1st's just because they're firsts is ludicrous. Go back through draft history and look at how often you really hit it big with a 1st rounder. Would it be fair to say it's 50% or less? I think that's more than fair. Scroll back through Packers history on 1st rounders. I'd say hitting it big in Round 1 is way less than 50%. I would argue since Ted Thompson started drafting for us in '05 that the only guy he really hit it big with was Rodgers. Yes, we hit it big with Matthews but he was a trade up, not our natural selection. ONE time in TT's tenure did he pull us a superstar. Once. You get Graham you get another superstar without rolling the dice that aren't in your favor in two consecutive years much less all the others he didn't strike gold. You're basically trading 2 less than 50% chances on finding a special player for one GUARANTEED superstar.

EDIT: In looking back on Packers 1st round draft history back to 1988...the only two players that are better than Jimmy Graham are Sterling Sharpe and Aaron Rodgers. I LOVE how Ron Wolf thought regarding trading a 1st for Brett Favre: “The opportunity to acquire Brett Favre, in my opinion, easily outweighed the unknown quantity that might have been available to us in the 17th pick in the first round of this year's draft,” Packers general manager Ron Wolf explained. --Jimmy G. easily outweighs the unknown quantity the next two firsts would bring us, in my opinion. Rodgers window is about as big as Jimmy's ...would love to pair a true star with Rodgers while Aaron is 30.
Offline StarrMax1  
#50 Posted : Saturday, July 5, 2014 5:04:57 AM(UTC)
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uffda udfa said: Go to Quoted Post
These kind of replies are mindboggling. NOWHERE did I say we should cut all these guys. I posted it as a guide to keep an eye on where this team might find some cap relief for any reason, Jimmy Graham related included.

I wholeheartedly disagree with the notion that giving up 2 1st rounders sets us back. You have to keep in mind that getting Graham is almost assuredly better than ANYONE you're going to draft in the 20-32 range. So, losing 1 first rounder for Graham is a no brainer to me. That 2nd 1st is a little tougher to swallow but if I look at how things go for the Packers to think we might draft a Sherrod and Harrell with our 1's over the next two years, how does that set us back if we traded for Graham. The odds we hit huge on both 1st's over the next two seasons is minute. Give me consecutive years 1st rounders that Ted Thompson has found superstars. Rodgers, Hawk, Harrell, Jordy(2nd rounder in trade out of 1st round), BJ Raji, Bryan Bulaga, Sherrod, Perry, Datone Jones, Ha Ha. Who is the best pairing back to back years? We won't be drafting a QB and that is the money position on any team so we won't be missing on a franchise QB in the next two seasons. I would trade any 2 year stretch of 1st rounders for Jimmy Graham save for the one that included Aaron Rodgers.

The mindset of not wanting to give up 1st's just because they're firsts is ludicrous. Go back through draft history and look at how often you really hit it big with a 1st rounder. Would it be fair to say it's 50% or less? I think that's more than fair. Scroll back through Packers history on 1st rounders. I'd say hitting it big in Round 1 is way less than 50%. I would argue since Ted Thompson started drafting for us in '05 that the only guy he really hit it big with was Rodgers. Yes, we hit it big with Matthews but he was a trade up, not our natural selection. ONE time in TT's tenure did he pull us a superstar. Once. You get Graham you get another superstar without rolling the dice that aren't in your favor in two consecutive years much less all the others he didn't strike gold. You're basically trading 2 less than 50% chances on finding a special player for one GUARANTEED superstar.

EDIT: In looking back on Packers 1st round draft history back to 1988...the only two players that are better than Jimmy Graham are Sterling Sharpe and Aaron Rodgers. I LOVE how Ron Wolf thought regarding trading a 1st for Brett Favre: “The opportunity to acquire Brett Favre, in my opinion, easily outweighed the unknown quantity that might have been available to us in the 17th pick in the first round of this year's draft,” Packers general manager Ron Wolf explained. --Jimmy G. easily outweighs the unknown quantity the next two firsts would bring us, in my opinion. Rodgers window is about as big as Jimmy's ...would love to pair a true star with Rodgers while Aaron is 30.



"We could cut the following players at these cap savings to improve our standing..."

I think this is the problem, you post these long winded ideas, then post long winded explanations, thinking that most here are actually reading the entire content of your posts.

You did say "we could cut the following players at these cap savings to improve our standing"

I took that as to sign Jimmy Graham and make it work, you would give up 2 1st rnd picks and cut those players.

If you meant something else, well that is not the way it reads.

This is the problem I find with your posts, you choose a subject, then fly off in 15 different directions tryin to get people to agree with you.

I'll keep it simple, No way is Jimmy Graham worth 2 1st round picks, especially when he is going to want 10 mil + a year,

thanks Post received 2 applause.
DoddPower on 7/5/2014(UTC), Dexter_Sinister on 7/7/2014(UTC)
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