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nyrpack  
#41 Posted : Friday, July 4, 2014 8:17:30 AM(UTC)
let me think about this...... yesssss !!
play2win  
#42 Posted : Friday, July 4, 2014 8:45:19 AM(UTC)
I have to admit, our coaching staff loves to use a hybrid TE. I just dont see them forking over those high picks and giant cash to make a Graham trade happen.

As feature receivers, both players have roughly 3800 yds receiving over the last 4 seasons, with Graham having 41 TDs to Nelson's 32.
uffda udfa  
#43 Posted : Friday, July 4, 2014 1:11:59 PM(UTC)
The Packers did try featuring Finley many times and he simply did not and could not put up numbers like Graham. The guy is 6'7. 6'7! Red zone issues...SOLVED. That is such a HUGE part of the NFL game. The difference between a FG attempt and a TD is gigantic.

Trying to compare Jordy Nelson to Jimmy Graham is odd to me. Graham was ruled a TE not a WR. For the sake of argument Graham is now being considered a WR? That doesn't make much sense. Finley was as much a hybrid TE as Graham. If memory serves, in the past, Finley groused about how he should be viewed when it came to paying him as he felt he was more of a WR.

Graham runs 4.53 at 6'7.... he's faster than our new 2nd round WR and 6 inches taller. This guy is special and it's a little insulting for me to read that he's like Jordy Nelson who plays a different position and doesn't offer what Jimmy does. Jordy as a WR is nowhere near as good as Graham is as a TE. It isn't close. Graham is loved in his locker room and works and works to be better and better. He'd be a tremendous fit in that regard. Plus, you know Ted Thompson has a soft spot for guys with stories like Jimmy's.

I just keep thinking if Rodgers could make something for James Jones with his limited speed and athleticism how much could he do with someone who has tons of it? Nelson on another team isn't likely as good as he is with us. I love Jordy...think he's a very good WR. He's just not in the same zip code when it comes to what he offers vs. what Jimmy Graham offers. Graham is one of the few incredibly special pass catchers in the NFL. Rodgers has yet to have a guy like that. Brett had his Sterling for a little while. Aaron hasn't had his and maybe never will.

As for the caution on the cap... that's a good point, however, with the TV games on Thursdays and now half of them simulcast by CBS, the money is growing and growing. I believe the NFL has a good handle on money and don't think it's all that risky to believe the cap will be much higher in the next year and the ones following.

Again, the GREAT teams are relentless about trying to get better and better. Draft and develop is something all 32 teams do not just us so that philosophy is beaten by teams who draft and develop AND add stars. Peppers is a nice attempt at improving but he's 30 freaking four. I hope he can squeeze a good year or two out of that old body of his. The one big move we made comes riddled with question marks and rightly so. Jimmy Graham comes with no such questions as his arrow is pointing the opposite of Peppers. Saying we added Peppers and should be content is wrong to me as, again, we don't know if he has anything left. A guy like Graham is in the prime years of being a terror on the football field.

I wish to see a 2nd ring in the Rodgers era. It will more likely be accomplished by going for it than playing safe hoping you get that anomalous season every 10-15 years. We have the best passer ever to throw the football on our roster right now. Why would you not give him a Jimmy Graham? Richard Rodgers and Davante Adams are good enough? Ugh, I hate that thinking. Ron Wolf lamented he never gave Brett enough weapons. Ted Thompson may have the same regrets.

Jordy is not a dominant WR. He's very good...not dominant. We're not even sure who our real #1 is because there's not much of a gap or one at all between him and Randall. Graham is better than both of them and he's a TE. Win...now. Aaron is 30... his best years are fading. Give him the help TODAY, not wish and hope that a few years down the line Adams and Richard Rodgers might be solid players. Very good is not good enough. Winning isn't everything it's the only thing...and signing Graham squares more with Lombardi's philosophy than draft and develop ever will regardless of how successful it's been which is really masked by having a great QB for 25 years.
dhazer  
#44 Posted : Friday, July 4, 2014 2:03:39 PM(UTC)
uffda udfa said: Go to Quoted Post
What's the precedent? Ted Thompson tried trading for Tony Gonzalez years back...same for Randy Moss. If there is the potential to add a special player, Ted Thompson will do his "due diligence". There is no way I can conceive of that he wouldn't be doing "due diligence" on the Graham situation. That guy changes games. Special player.

I find it odd that people are referring to Quarless and Taylor????? as SOLID? Huh? Wow, that is way overvauling your own. Quarless is JAG and Taylor doesn't and hasn't played on offense very much. Finley was an 8+ million dollar a year player, as valued by the Packers. I think most of us would say he was nowhere near an 8 million dollar player for us...ever. Quarless makes 7 times less than what Finley made as our #1 TE if we're talking cap hit. Jermichael's cap hit was 8.75 million last season, Q's is 1.25 million.

If you were okay with 8.75 million for Jermichael, I don't know why you'd have a problem to have a truly special player for a few million more.

Our roster has been TE heavy for the past few years. Obviously, this franchise greatly values that position and it shows that they were willing to pay and pay big for a guy like Finley who has never produced like Graham. Finley has started 48 games and amassed 20 TD's. Graham has started 36 games and amassed 41 TD's. So, about every 2.5 games you can count on a TD from Finley. Meanwhile, in every game, on average, you can count on one from Graham.

The GREAT teams go out and add things... Seattle kept adding last year Avril, Bennett...did they really need to trade for Harvin? No. Went to the SB without any help from him, and then used his help in it and thrashed Denver. Did SF need Anquan Boldin? Did the great Niners and Cowboys of old need Deion Sanders? This idea that Green Bay is okay/good enough is deadly to winning another SB. The whole we have Aaron Rodgers and our O is going to be great sounds eerily similar to the many years Packers fans said the same exact things when Favre was under center. Net result...1 ring in Favre era. We got our 1 ring in Favre era when we went for it by signing Reggie White, Sean Jones, Santana Dotson, etc... Our ring in the Rodgers era seems to be a totally anomaly. Haven't been back to an NFC Championship game since, or even sniffed one. We aren't good enough, haven't been good enough and adding Julius Peppers is a potential right kind of move to help get us back. Graham is on that same line of thought. This Ted Thompson "we think we're pretty good and we like the guys we've got" has been bought by the fanbase. Rodgers covers a multitude of sins.

If you can get Jimmy Graham and it isn't going to absolutely derail you, you have to try and do it. The great teams do things like that....it'll be crushing to see a Seattle or New England go get him, or some other on the cusp team.

If we added Graham, somehow, we could cut Quarless (who didn't participate in the off season program at all which is terrible for your "#1 TE") and save a little off the cap. If we could give Finley 8.75 of our cap last year and we can save close to a million with Quarless...that puts us close to 10 million toward Graham. However, the Peppers contract might have been given due to Jermichael being a FA and not having to commit that money to him.

Packers are an esitmated 13.6 million under the cap. We could cut the following players at these cap savings to improve our standing...plus cap is going to go way up over the next few years.
1) Tramon Williams-- 7.5 million (would have to eat 2 mil to gain the 7.5 but might be worth it)
2) Brad Jones-- 1.925 million
3) Jarrett Bush--- 1.7 million
4) Derek Sherrod--1.25 million
5) Jamari Lattimore--1.43 million
6) BJ Raji-- 3.5 million
7) Andrew Quarless-- 900k
8) Bryan Bulaga--2.66 Million
****Hawk's release would net us 1.9 million, but I can't see the Packers eating 3.2 million for him not to play for us****


----I could make a case for any or all of those guys not making the team this year. I can't wait to see pre-season action and read about TC. If we have guys who are playing well at those positions above, we won't need to spend as much on some of these guys. Tramon is the big fish. How much better are we with him vs. who would have to replace him at that cap savings if he's gone? I don't know if the guy next after Tramon is 7.5 millon dollars worse.

Start playing with the figures above and subtract some combo of them off the books and I don't see why we couldn't afford Graham and both Jordy and Randall, but that money would come from the 13.6 million left and what savings we can come up with by releasing some of our veterans. Letting Tramon go puts at over 21 million in cap space with that cap climbing over the next few years.

On an unrelated note...it is sad that our D chews up nearly 68 million of our cap while our offense checks in at only almost 52 million. Our D hasn't been good as we all know, but to know we're spending that much on it to get what we're getting is really sad.

EDIT: The current salary cap is 133 million. The salary cap jumped by 10 million from 2013-2014 and is expected to jump at least another 10 million next year. Projections are that it will likely be over 150 million by 2016. So, in essence, the Rodgers cap hit will be absorbed by the rise in the cap next year. We will have plenty of green to dole out for extensions to Jordy and Randall if cap is going up another 10 million.


So looking at your list you suggest we get rid of 5 maybe 6 starters so we can bring in a TE. I saw if we brought him we just trade CM3 for Graham. We would get about the same amount of production for the cost from both. CM3 is way over paid and I wouldn't mind seeing him gone. Hell he only plays 1/2 the season anyway and collects his 15 million,
uffda udfa  
#45 Posted : Friday, July 4, 2014 4:53:48 PM(UTC)
dhazer said: Go to Quoted Post
So looking at your list you suggest we get rid of 5 maybe 6 starters so we can bring in a TE. I saw if we brought him we just trade CM3 for Graham. We would get about the same amount of production for the cost from both. CM3 is way over paid and I wouldn't mind seeing him gone. Hell he only plays 1/2 the season anyway and collects his 15 million,


Nobody on the list of guys I posted are irreplaceable. Tramon is the big fish and the toughest call. I wouldn't have much issue with seeing the rest of that list gone. BTW, I never said cut them all...I said we could cut some salary cap by cutting one, or some combo.

Also, none of that is even necessary to bringing Graham into the fold... it's just a picture of the way we can finagle the cap to accommodate certain moves like Randall, Jordy and potentially the longshot of Jimmy Graham wearing the "G".

Signing Peppers was a sign of what? Going for it for THIS year. Peppers is not going to be around for very long...we all know that. He was signed during Aaron's prime window for another ring. If we're going all in this season which Peppers signing is a reflection of why stop there IF it's possible to get Jimmy here.

Unlike most, I see his potential addition as a major need not a luxury. I ripped our TE group days ago before the story broke that Graham's franchise number was going to be 5.3 million less than he was hoping for. Now, discontent really comes into play on Graham's part and the Saints don't have anywhere the flexibility we do. Perhaps, they start ditching cap to keep him real soon.

Getting Graham would be TT's close equivalent of Wolf bringing Reggie to Green Bay. Ted Thompson learned under Wolf. He's yet to make a huge signature move as to an addition of superstar status. Woodson was thought to be near his end when we scooped him and Peppers even further near his end. Ted Thompson has not brought a superstar in his prime to Green Bay in his tenure. Ted Thompson can and will surprise you...I hope to be pleasantly surprised.
uffda udfa  
#46 Posted : Friday, July 4, 2014 5:16:04 PM(UTC)
Here's a piece on where things stand between the Saints and Jimmy Graham... will be an interesting 11 days:

http://profootballtalk.n...reduced-offer-to-graham/
SINCITYCHEEZE  
#47 Posted : Friday, July 4, 2014 6:19:09 PM(UTC)
Two First Round Picks for Graham!?!?!?!? Who do they think we are????......................................
THE VIKINGS!!!!!!!![laughing] Flapper Tongue [neener] Vikings Razz
StarrMax1  
#48 Posted : Friday, July 4, 2014 10:56:09 PM(UTC)
ackers are an esitmated 13.6 million under the cap. We could cut the following players at these cap savings to improve our standing...plus cap is going to go way up over the next few years.
1) Tramon Williams-- 7.5 million (would have to eat 2 mil to gain the 7.5 but might be worth it)
2) Brad Jones-- 1.925 million
3) Jarrett Bush--- 1.7 million
4) Derek Sherrod--1.25 million
5) Jamari Lattimore--1.43 million
6) BJ Raji-- 3.5 million
7) Andrew Quarless-- 900k
8) Bryan Bulaga--2.66 Million
****Hawk's release would net us 1.9 million, but I can't see the Packers eating 3.2 million for him not to play for us****

Jones, Lattimore and Possibly Hawk, well, that leaves 2013 7th round pick Sam Barrington as you veteran ILB, this is just to laughable to be serious.
You want to dump 8 maybe 9 players from the current roster, and give up 2 1st rnd picks, for Graham?

Ted would never give up the 2 1st rnd picks, and i sure as hell hope he wouldn't be dumb enough to gut his defense and weeken his O-line just to sign a TE, no matter how good he is.

Ted pulls off that move and The Packers are looking at losing seasons for years to come.

The 80's just called, they love the move!!!!!!
uffda udfa  
#49 Posted : Saturday, July 5, 2014 2:00:39 AM(UTC)
StarrMax1 said: Go to Quoted Post
ackers are an esitmated 13.6 million under the cap. We could cut the following players at these cap savings to improve our standing...plus cap is going to go way up over the next few years.
1) Tramon Williams-- 7.5 million (would have to eat 2 mil to gain the 7.5 but might be worth it)
2) Brad Jones-- 1.925 million
3) Jarrett Bush--- 1.7 million
4) Derek Sherrod--1.25 million
5) Jamari Lattimore--1.43 million
6) BJ Raji-- 3.5 million
7) Andrew Quarless-- 900k
8) Bryan Bulaga--2.66 Million
****Hawk's release would net us 1.9 million, but I can't see the Packers eating 3.2 million for him not to play for us****

Jones, Lattimore and Possibly Hawk, well, that leaves 2013 7th round pick Sam Barrington as you veteran ILB, this is just to laughable to be serious.
You want to dump 8 maybe 9 players from the current roster, and give up 2 1st rnd picks, for Graham?

Ted would never give up the 2 1st rnd picks, and i sure as hell hope he wouldn't be dumb enough to gut his defense and weeken his O-line just to sign a TE, no matter how good he is.

Ted pulls off that move and The Packers are looking at losing seasons for years to come.

The 80's just called, they love the move!!!!!!


These kind of replies are mindboggling. NOWHERE did I say we should cut all these guys. I posted it as a guide to keep an eye on where this team might find some cap relief for any reason, Jimmy Graham related included.

I wholeheartedly disagree with the notion that giving up 2 1st rounders sets us back. You have to keep in mind that getting Graham is almost assuredly better than ANYONE you're going to draft in the 20-32 range. So, losing 1 first rounder for Graham is a no brainer to me. That 2nd 1st is a little tougher to swallow but if I look at how things go for the Packers to think we might draft a Sherrod and Harrell with our 1's over the next two years, how does that set us back if we traded for Graham. The odds we hit huge on both 1st's over the next two seasons is minute. Give me consecutive years 1st rounders that Ted Thompson has found superstars. Rodgers, Hawk, Harrell, Jordy(2nd rounder in trade out of 1st round), BJ Raji, Bryan Bulaga, Sherrod, Perry, Datone Jones, Ha Ha. Who is the best pairing back to back years? We won't be drafting a QB and that is the money position on any team so we won't be missing on a franchise QB in the next two seasons. I would trade any 2 year stretch of 1st rounders for Jimmy Graham save for the one that included Aaron Rodgers.

The mindset of not wanting to give up 1st's just because they're firsts is ludicrous. Go back through draft history and look at how often you really hit it big with a 1st rounder. Would it be fair to say it's 50% or less? I think that's more than fair. Scroll back through Packers history on 1st rounders. I'd say hitting it big in Round 1 is way less than 50%. I would argue since Ted Thompson started drafting for us in '05 that the only guy he really hit it big with was Rodgers. Yes, we hit it big with Matthews but he was a trade up, not our natural selection. ONE time in TT's tenure did he pull us a superstar. Once. You get Graham you get another superstar without rolling the dice that aren't in your favor in two consecutive years much less all the others he didn't strike gold. You're basically trading 2 less than 50% chances on finding a special player for one GUARANTEED superstar.

EDIT: In looking back on Packers 1st round draft history back to 1988...the only two players that are better than Jimmy Graham are Sterling Sharpe and Aaron Rodgers. I LOVE how Ron Wolf thought regarding trading a 1st for Brett Favre: “The opportunity to acquire Brett Favre, in my opinion, easily outweighed the unknown quantity that might have been available to us in the 17th pick in the first round of this year's draft,” Packers general manager Ron Wolf explained. --Jimmy G. easily outweighs the unknown quantity the next two firsts would bring us, in my opinion. Rodgers window is about as big as Jimmy's ...would love to pair a true star with Rodgers while Aaron is 30.
StarrMax1  
#50 Posted : Saturday, July 5, 2014 5:04:57 AM(UTC)
uffda udfa said: Go to Quoted Post
These kind of replies are mindboggling. NOWHERE did I say we should cut all these guys. I posted it as a guide to keep an eye on where this team might find some cap relief for any reason, Jimmy Graham related included.

I wholeheartedly disagree with the notion that giving up 2 1st rounders sets us back. You have to keep in mind that getting Graham is almost assuredly better than ANYONE you're going to draft in the 20-32 range. So, losing 1 first rounder for Graham is a no brainer to me. That 2nd 1st is a little tougher to swallow but if I look at how things go for the Packers to think we might draft a Sherrod and Harrell with our 1's over the next two years, how does that set us back if we traded for Graham. The odds we hit huge on both 1st's over the next two seasons is minute. Give me consecutive years 1st rounders that Ted Thompson has found superstars. Rodgers, Hawk, Harrell, Jordy(2nd rounder in trade out of 1st round), BJ Raji, Bryan Bulaga, Sherrod, Perry, Datone Jones, Ha Ha. Who is the best pairing back to back years? We won't be drafting a QB and that is the money position on any team so we won't be missing on a franchise QB in the next two seasons. I would trade any 2 year stretch of 1st rounders for Jimmy Graham save for the one that included Aaron Rodgers.

The mindset of not wanting to give up 1st's just because they're firsts is ludicrous. Go back through draft history and look at how often you really hit it big with a 1st rounder. Would it be fair to say it's 50% or less? I think that's more than fair. Scroll back through Packers history on 1st rounders. I'd say hitting it big in Round 1 is way less than 50%. I would argue since Ted Thompson started drafting for us in '05 that the only guy he really hit it big with was Rodgers. Yes, we hit it big with Matthews but he was a trade up, not our natural selection. ONE time in TT's tenure did he pull us a superstar. Once. You get Graham you get another superstar without rolling the dice that aren't in your favor in two consecutive years much less all the others he didn't strike gold. You're basically trading 2 less than 50% chances on finding a special player for one GUARANTEED superstar.

EDIT: In looking back on Packers 1st round draft history back to 1988...the only two players that are better than Jimmy Graham are Sterling Sharpe and Aaron Rodgers. I LOVE how Ron Wolf thought regarding trading a 1st for Brett Favre: “The opportunity to acquire Brett Favre, in my opinion, easily outweighed the unknown quantity that might have been available to us in the 17th pick in the first round of this year's draft,” Packers general manager Ron Wolf explained. --Jimmy G. easily outweighs the unknown quantity the next two firsts would bring us, in my opinion. Rodgers window is about as big as Jimmy's ...would love to pair a true star with Rodgers while Aaron is 30.



"We could cut the following players at these cap savings to improve our standing..."

I think this is the problem, you post these long winded ideas, then post long winded explanations, thinking that most here are actually reading the entire content of your posts.

You did say "we could cut the following players at these cap savings to improve our standing"

I took that as to sign Jimmy Graham and make it work, you would give up 2 1st rnd picks and cut those players.

If you meant something else, well that is not the way it reads.

This is the problem I find with your posts, you choose a subject, then fly off in 15 different directions tryin to get people to agree with you.

I'll keep it simple, No way is Jimmy Graham worth 2 1st round picks, especially when he is going to want 10 mil + a year,

nerdmann  
#51 Posted : Saturday, July 5, 2014 7:11:16 AM(UTC)
uffda udfa said: Go to Quoted Post

EDIT: In looking back on Packers 1st round draft history back to 1988...the only two players that are better than Jimmy Graham are Sterling Sharpe and Aaron Rodgers. I LOVE how Ron Wolf thought regarding trading a 1st for Brett Favre: “The opportunity to acquire Brett Favre, in my opinion, easily outweighed the unknown quantity that might have been available to us in the 17th pick in the first round of this year's draft,” Packers general manager Ron Wolf explained. --Jimmy G. easily outweighs the unknown quantity the next two firsts would bring us, in my opinion. Rodgers window is about as big as Jimmy's ...would love to pair a true star with Rodgers while Aaron is 30.


First of all, that's ridiculous.

Second of all, when you draft a player, he's not 28.
mi_keys  
#52 Posted : Saturday, July 5, 2014 9:54:33 AM(UTC)
nerdmann said: Go to Quoted Post
Second of all, when you draft a player, he's not 28.


Erroneous. Brandon Weeden.
uffda udfa  
#53 Posted : Saturday, July 5, 2014 10:34:38 AM(UTC)
StarrMax1 said: Go to Quoted Post
"We could cut the following players at these cap savings to improve our standing..."

I think this is the problem, you post these long winded ideas, then post long winded explanations, thinking that most here are actually reading the entire content of your posts.

You did say "we could cut the following players at these cap savings to improve our standing"

I took that as to sign Jimmy Graham and make it work, you would give up 2 1st rnd picks and cut those players.

If you meant something else, well that is not the way it reads.

This is the problem I find with your posts, you choose a subject, then fly off in 15 different directions tryin to get people to agree with you.

I'll keep it simple, No way is Jimmy Graham worth 2 1st round picks, especially when he is going to want 10 mil + a year,



I can't speak to your comprehension or attention span. I can say that the word "could" doesn't not mean the word should. I clarified what that statement meant in several subsequent posts, yet, the accusation is that I said we SHOULD cut all those players. I don't believe I should've had to clarify it but with all the misunderstanding I was forced to. That is lack of comprehension. Yes, I don't make it simple because it is no fun to read stupid poorly thought out posts that offer the reader nothing but the same drivel anyone could type. I would hope that when we're debating any issue that several points could be brought to the table...that is what I try to do. I'm sorry if it's not simple enough for you.

As to nerd saying it's ridiculous... which is exactly the type of post I try not to ever make because it's empty of any detail as to why it's ridiculous...go to draftfhistory.com and look at the Packers naturally occurring 1st round selections since 1988... there are two guys that are at the level of what Jimmy Graham is for his position. Rodgers and Sharpe. That's it. The % of hitting on a superstar player in the first round for the Packers is well below 50%....I'd say it's less than 10% if we're talking superstar player in Round 1 which, for the record is what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about a guy being a total bust, or a solid player...I'm talking about the number of times we hit on a superstar in Round 1...Graham is a superstar. Cupboard is incredibly bare if you really want to delve into the reality of our 1st rounders since 1988. Getting a proven superstar vs. taking two swings at getting just one shows that taking the one guaranteed one makes much more sense statistically speaking. Take a look for yourself and try to keep your Packers blinders off. Assume that Jimmy Graham is a Packer right now and tell me he's not better at his position than anyone else we've drafted since '88 other than Sterling and Aaron. (Clay doesn't count as he was a trade up)

http://www.drafthistory....x.php/team-round/packers
StarrMax1  
#54 Posted : Saturday, July 5, 2014 2:10:23 PM(UTC)
uffda udfa said: Go to Quoted Post
I can't speak to your comprehension or attention span. I can say that the word "could" doesn't not mean the word should. I clarified what that statement meant in several subsequent posts, yet, the accusation is that I said we SHOULD cut all those players. I don't believe I should've had to clarify it but with all the misunderstanding I was forced to. That is lack of comprehension. Yes, I don't make it simple because it is no fun to read stupid poorly thought out posts that offer the reader nothing but the same drivel anyone could type. I would hope that when we're debating any issue that several points could be brought to the table...that is what I try to do. I'm sorry if it's not simple enough for you.

As to nerd saying it's ridiculous... which is exactly the type of post I try not to ever make because it's empty of any detail as to why it's ridiculous...go to draftfhistory.com and look at the Packers naturally occurring 1st round selections since 1988... there are two guys that are at the level of what Jimmy Graham is for his position. Rodgers and Sharpe. That's it. The % of hitting on a superstar player in the first round for the Packers is well below 50%....I'd say it's less than 10% if we're talking superstar player in Round 1 which, for the record is what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about a guy being a total bust, or a solid player...I'm talking about the number of times we hit on a superstar in Round 1...Graham is a superstar. Cupboard is incredibly bare if you really want to delve into the reality of our 1st rounders since 1988. Getting a proven superstar vs. taking two swings at getting just one shows that taking the one guaranteed one makes much more sense statistically speaking. Take a look for yourself and try to keep your Packers blinders off. Assume that Jimmy Graham is a Packer right now and tell me he's not better at his position than anyone else we've drafted since '88 other than Sterling and Aaron. (Clay doesn't count as he was a trade up)

http://www.drafthistory....x.php/team-round/packers



Again maybe you did clarify what you really meant in a subesequent post, sorry I find your posts to be long winded and lacking any quality substance.

So I apologize for deeming your coulda as a shoulda, and stick with my original stance on the subject that no way is Jimmy Graham worth 2 1st rnd picks to The Green Bay Packers.
uffda udfa  
#55 Posted : Saturday, July 5, 2014 5:11:39 PM(UTC)
StarrMax1 said: Go to Quoted Post
Again maybe you did clarify what you really meant in a subesequent post, sorry I find your posts to be long winded and lacking any quality substance.

So I apologize for deeming your coulda as a shoulda, and stick with my original stance on the subject that no way is Jimmy Graham worth 2 1st rnd picks to The Green Bay Packers.


[laughing] I hope you feel better after "telling me"!

My posts are lengthy, which is the type I prefer, over the simple minded ones that lack anything at all but the most simplistic Bill Belichick type answer.

Ironically, your retort was vacuous. If you can't debate keep it simple and throw an insult in for good measure. You can easily look at the link and see that I'm absolutely correct that the odds don't favor us hitting a superstar like Graham with our next two 1st rounders. The salary cap situation was detailed as well with our current standing and players who might be salary cap casualties. Also, the NFL salary cap on the whole was referenced. I would say there's plenty of substance to go around, but you could never really admit that and I understand.

EDIT: BTW, I will keep in mind that you like to respond to topics without actually reading them first. That is good information for all posters to know so we can understand when you respond that you really had no idea what was being said so we can avoid future misunderstandings.
play2win  
#56 Posted : Saturday, July 5, 2014 5:51:22 PM(UTC)
babble. burble. banter. bicker. bicker. bicker. broohaha. ballyhoo. bolderdash.

This is a really fucking stupid idea. Plain and simple. Graham is really more WR than TE. As the Saints leading receiver, his numbers are nearly identical to another player who was our top receiver last year, Jordy Nelson. Only, Nelson was more efficient, and was somehow able to put up similar numbers while we suffered the loss of Rodgers for a large portion of our season.

sure, Graham's TD totals were higher last season, but he had Brees throwing to him the entire year, and his 16 TDs were just one more than Jordy's best year in 2011 where he had 15 TDs.

You dont cut your top 2 ILBs, your top CB and your top RT, and give away TWO 1st Round picks, along with $10M+ for a hybrid TE, one that you can't possibly target 144 times to get like #s to his 2013 season. Not when you already have a similarly effective WR on your roster.
uffda udfa  
#57 Posted : Saturday, July 5, 2014 7:16:14 PM(UTC)
play2win said: Go to Quoted Post
babble. burble. banter. bicker. bicker. bicker. broohaha. ballyhoo. bolderdash.

This is a really fucking stupid idea. Plain and simple. Graham is really more WR than TE. As the Saints leading receiver, his numbers are nearly identical to another player who was our top receiver last year, Jordy Nelson. Only, Nelson was more efficient, and was somehow able to put up similar numbers while we suffered the loss of Rodgers for a large portion of our season.

sure, Graham's TD totals were higher last season, but he had Brees throwing to him the entire year, and his 16 TDs were just one more than Jordy's best year in 2011 where he had 15 TDs.

You dont cut your top 2 ILBs, your top CB and your top RT, and give away TWO 1st Round picks, along with $10M+ for a hybrid TE, one that you can't possibly target 144 times to get like #s to his 2013 season. Not when you already have a similarly effective WR on your roster.


I don't know why you insist on comparing him to Jordy Nelson? Have you ever compared Finley to Jordy Nelson because he's as hybrid of a TE as Graham is. Would anyone in the NFL compare him to Calvin Johnson? Why? Is Calvin Johnson a hybrid WR or just a WR? Is Jordy a hybrid WR or just a WR? You insist on comparing a HYBRID TIGHT END to a PURE WR. That is so illogical I wouldn't know where to begin.

Here's a blurb from JSOnline.com back when Finley was seeking a new contract:

Jermichael Finley is a free agent this off-season and there hasn't been any movement on a new contract. "Hey, it's the NFL," Finley said. "With business right now, I don't even know what's going on. ...You just have to play that (waiting) game. It's the Green Bay way. "I don't know anything. I'll just hope for the best." If Finley does receive the franchise tag from the Packers, it's expected that he will seek to be classified as a wide receiver. An arbitrator would make that final call. The franchise tag number for wideouts will likely be around $9 million.

Sound familiar? Finley was going to go the Graham route, long before Graham ever did, had he been tagged and argue he was more of a WR. So, instead of making the right comparison which is FINLEY to GRAHAM which would not help your argument, you bump it up to a WR vs. a TE and you still can't make the case by skewing the comparison as badly as has been done here.

Here's more: http://espn.go.com/blog/...ermichael-finley-is-a-wr

So, try comparing Finley's best season vs. Graham's last. That is the correct comparison. It isn't close... if the Packers thought enough to give Finley 8.75 million last season there is no reason not to give 10 million to Jimmy Graham who is a far better TE. Further, there has been crickets and rightly so on the idea that our franchise has only drafted two players with their own 1st rounders that are as good as Graham is at his position since 1988. Oh no! How dumb to give up 2 1st rounders to get a superstar redzone stud who changes games vs. taking our chances drafting a pair like Sherrod and Perry...or Harrell and Hawk. How could we live without out our precious 1st rounders to net a TE who is going to the Hall of Fame one day? That is dumb.

EDIT: Would you trade Nick Perry and Derek Sherrod for Jimmy Graham? How about AJ Hawk and Justin Harrell? Those are back to back 1st rounders....and...YES...you would, or at least should trade those 1st round pairs for Jimmy Graham. We draft near the bottom of Round 1. The only other time we hit on a superstar with our own 1st rounder other than the gift of Rodgers is when we drafted Top 10 when we were terrible and netted Sterling. The aversion to losing 1st round picks is odd.
StarrMax1  
#58 Posted : Saturday, July 5, 2014 7:23:03 PM(UTC)
uffda udfa said: Go to Quoted Post
[laughing] I hope you feel better after "telling me"!

My posts are lengthy, which is the type I prefer, over the simple minded ones that lack anything at all but the most simplistic Bill Belichick type answer.

Ironically, your retort was vacuous. If you can't debate keep it simple and throw an insult in for good measure. You can easily look at the link and see that I'm absolutely correct that the odds don't favor us hitting a superstar like Graham with our next two 1st rounders. The salary cap situation was detailed as well with our current standing and players who might be salary cap casualties. Also, the NFL salary cap on the whole was referenced. I would say there's plenty of substance to go around, but you could never really admit that and I understand.

EDIT: BTW, I will keep in mind that you like to respond to topics without actually reading them first. That is good information for all posters to know so we can understand when you respond that you really had no idea what was being said so we can avoid future misunderstandings.


No, just as you said that could is much different then should, I said I don't read all of YOUR long winded posts.
I enjoy coming to this site and reading others views on The Packers, most on here give their opinions and move on, you on the other hand must turn every subject into a 10 pages of "this is why I am right and everyone else is wrong" .

Even though most views I have read seem to agree with me on this subject, you just keep posting more and more nonsense, on why The Packers should mortgage the future for one player.

Sometimes a person needs to step back and look at all the facts and admit their idea is just not a good one.

The Green Bay Packers do not need Jimmy Graham at the high price that it would cost them.

mi_keys  
#59 Posted : Saturday, July 5, 2014 7:36:16 PM(UTC)
Number of points I wanted to respond to. Get ready to be bemused.

uffda udfa said: Go to Quoted Post
This idea that Green Bay is okay/good enough is deadly to winning another SB. The whole we have Aaron Rodgers and our O is going to be great sounds eerily similar to the many years Packers fans said the same exact things when Favre was under center. Net result...1 ring in Favre era. We got our 1 ring in Favre era when we went for it by signing Reggie White, Sean Jones, Santana Dotson, etc... Our ring in the Rodgers era seems to be a totally anomaly. Haven't been back to an NFC Championship game since, or even sniffed one. We aren't good enough, haven't been good enough and adding Julius Peppers is a potential right kind of move to help get us back. Graham is on that same line of thought. This Ted Thompson "we think we're pretty good and we like the guys we've got" has been bought by the fanbase. Rodgers covers a multitude of sins.


During Ted Thompson's time here as GM, only the Giants and Steelers (who have been another proponent of draft and develop Packers style) have won multiple Super Bowls. Other top teams including New England and San Francisco have not won a title during that time frame. There have been many great teams over the years that have failed to win a single title, most humorously for us being our purple friends to the west and their teams in the late 60s/early 70s.

Scoffing at our 1 ring under the Rodgers era is ridiculous. Period.

Are there things we could do to improve the team, to improve our chances at winning another title? Yes. Absolutely. And there has been much discussion on this forum over the years as to what exactly those things are. This neither changes the fact that we will still be a contender this year nor does it, in and of itself, make it right to give up two first round picks and sign Graham to a contract that will likely lead to us cutting others to make it work long term.

uffda udfa said: Go to Quoted Post
What's the precedent? Ted Thompson tried trading for Tony Gonzalez years back...same for Randy Moss. If there is the potential to add a special player, Ted Thompson will do his "due diligence".


Those were cases in which we were potentially offering a single 3rd/4th round pick. That's quite a bit different situation than giving up two 1st round picks.

uffda udfa said: Go to Quoted Post
The GREAT teams go out and add things... Seattle kept adding last year Avril, Bennett...did they really need to trade for Harvin? No. Went to the SB without any help from him, and then used his help in it and thrashed Denver. Did SF need Anquan Boldin? Did the great Niners and Cowboys of old need Deion Sanders?


Avril and Bennett were free agents and were signed to pretty manageable deals for Seattle, especially considering that for the last few years they've been operating with many of their key players on their rookie deals still. That gives a lot more cap room to make short term free agency moves.

As you admit, Harvin had effectively nothing to do with Seattle's season. They won in spite of that trade doing nothing for them in the first year. As of right now, Minnesota has got the better end of that trade.

Anquan Boldin cost San Francisco a 6th round pick and was on a reasonable salary. Again, not the same as giving up two 1st round picks and paying a huge salary.

Deion Sanders was a free agent both times.

Great teams have made the roster decisions where the expected return ouweight the risk, where the benefits outweight the costs. Offhand, I'm struggling to think of many, if any, moves where giving up a bundle of high end draft picks and signing a huge contract for a player has payed off with a title. I can think of a number of rather infamous moves that have utterly failed. Though not exactly analgous, there's a couple recent examples of a team giving up bunch of draft picks to move up that I expect to ultimately fail despite the player turning out to be very good: Atlanta with Julio Jones and Washington with RGIII. They just have too many other holes to fill.

I can't think of nor did I find in a cursory search, an example of a team signing another team's franchise tagged player and giving up two first round picks. We're talking about a situation that is effectively free agency, plus giving up two first round picks. Free agency already has a spotted track record before you even contemplate giving up draft picks.

uffda udfa said: Go to Quoted Post
Graham has started 36 games and amassed 41 TD's. So, about every 2.5 games you can count on a TD from Finley. Meanwhile, in every game, on average, you can count on one from Graham.


Graham has "started" 37 games according to NFL.com. Then again, he's actually played in 62. I'd bet the vast majority of those non-"starts" were cases in which the first lineup used by New Orleans didn't involve a tight end so he didn't technically "start" the game. He was probably pretty involved in most if not all of those games. For instance, he didn'st "start" week 14 against Carolina but had 6 receptions for 58 yards and 2 TDs.

So you can actually expect roughly 2 touchdowns every 3 games (0.66 per game) from Graham, which is still fantastic; but let's be accurate about it if we're going to highlight his production. For reference, that's more or less the same as Nelson the last 3 years (30 TDs in 44 games or .68 per game).

uffda udfa said: Go to Quoted Post
Packers are an esitmated 13.6 million under the cap. We could cut the following players at these cap savings to improve our standing...plus cap is going to go way up over the next few years.
1) Tramon Williams-- 7.5 million (would have to eat 2 mil to gain the 7.5 but might be worth it)
2) Brad Jones-- 1.925 million
3) Jarrett Bush--- 1.7 million
4) Derek Sherrod--1.25 million
5) Jamari Lattimore--1.43 million
6) BJ Raji-- 3.5 million
7) Andrew Quarless-- 900k
8) Bryan Bulaga--2.66 Million
****Hawk's release would net us 1.9 million, but I can't see the Packers eating 3.2 million for him not to play for us****


If you cut any of these players, who do you bring in to replace them and at what cost?

If you cut Bulaga are you content with Barclay as your top right tackle or do you look to free agency? Sherrod is our top backup at left tackle and the potential starter. Bulaga and Sherrod are both free agents after this year. Either they pan out, or we need to replace them with someone else. We pay our offensive line as a unit very little. At some point that's going to have to change. Paying big bucks to three receiving targets does us little good if Rodgers is on his back all game.

Tramon isn't worth 7.5M but he's a free agent after this year and he does have value to the defense. I personally like having a deep stable of corners. I'd rather they just rework it to something more friendly and extend him out 2 years, which would probably take him through his useful years.

Brad Jones and Jamari Lattimore are nothing special to write home about, but what are our options at an alreadly thin position if we cut either or both? Who is still out there in free agency?

BJ Raji has been a huge disappointment the last few years. I would have been fine letting him walk in free agency, but I would have wanted a replacement at nose tackle. We don't have many options that are suited to play a 0 or 1 tech as their primary position. We have more 3 and 5 techs.

Julius Peppers' cap hit accelerates significantly the next two years. We can cut him if he doesn't pan out, but if he does play at high level, it would really help our defense to maintain a significant pass rush threat opposite Matthews.

You mentioned in another post that none of the above is necessary to bring in Graham. True for one year. After that, you'd have to cut someone or let someone go or you're probably not resigning at least one of Cobb and Nelson.

uffda udfa said: Go to Quoted Post
The Packers did try featuring Finley many times and he simply did not and could not put up numbers like Graham. The guy is 6'7. 6'7! Red zone issues...SOLVED. That is such a HUGE part of the NFL game. The difference between a FG attempt and a TD is gigantic.


The red zone issues that are a stasticial anomaly under Rodgers/McCarthy era? Last year was the first year New Orleans was better than Green Bay in red zone TD conversion rate since 2010, when Jimmy Graham entered the league. Interestingly, New Orleans was better than Green Bay in red zone TD conversion in 2008 and 2009 with no Jimmy Graham.

uffda udfa said: Go to Quoted Post
Trying to compare Jordy Nelson to Jimmy Graham is odd to me. Graham was ruled a TE not a WR. For the sake of argument Graham is now being considered a WR? That doesn't make much sense. Finley was as much a hybrid TE as Graham. If memory serves, in the past, Finley groused about how he should be viewed when it came to paying him as he felt he was more of a WR.


The reason people compared the two is because both are the primary receiving target in their respective offense. On passing plays, how often does he stay in to block? He's almost exclusively a receiver. Plus, it seems to be annoyng you... trollers gonna troll.

uffda udfa said: Go to Quoted Post
I just keep thinking if Rodgers could make something for James Jones with his limited speed and athleticism how much could he do with someone who has tons of it?


Probably similar to what Brees does with Graham as far as effectiveness. I'd expect marginally better but similar nonetheless.

uffda udfa said: Go to Quoted Post
The mindset of not wanting to give up 1st's just because they're firsts is ludicrous. Go back through draft history and look at how often you really hit it big with a 1st rounder. Would it be fair to say it's 50% or less? I think that's more than fair. Scroll back through Packers history on 1st rounders. I'd say hitting it big in Round 1 is way less than 50%. I would argue since Ted Thompson started drafting for us in '05 that the only guy he really hit it big with was Rodgers. Yes, we hit it big with Matthews but he was a trade up, not our natural selection. ONE time in TT's tenure did he pull us a superstar. Once. You get Graham you get another superstar without rolling the dice that aren't in your favor in two consecutive years much less all the others he didn't strike gold. You're basically trading 2 less than 50% chances on finding a special player for one GUARANTEED superstar.


In Ted Thompson's tenure as, here are his #1 picks:

'05: Aaron Rodgers - All world. Nothing more need be said.
'06: AJ Hawk - 8 year starter; Named to 2010 pro bowl; May become Green Bay's all-time leader in tackles if he plays 2 more seasons; I know you're not the biggest fan, he's not flashy but he has been a steady, consistent starter for us.
'07: Justin Harrell - Injury risk before taking him and injuries derailed him before he ever really had a chance; they knew the risk and it bit them.
'08: Traded back to get Jordy Nelson - Has been named as an alternate to the pro bowl; arguably a top 10 receiver in the NFL; You'll point to it being 2nd round but we don't get him if we don't have a 1st round pick to trade back.
'09: BJ Raji - Started off very well his first two years and was a major part of our Super Bowl winning team, we might not win that title without him; been named to a pro bowl that he didn't deserve to be in but could and probably should have been named our Super Bowl year; been an utter waste of space from 2011 unward.
'09: Clay Matthews - You try to remove him from the list but if the point is assessing the ability to draft in the first round it's completely nonsensical to do so; multiple pro bowls and all-pro nominations; premier pass rusher.
'10: Bryan Bulaga - Named to the all-rookie team and started at right tackle on our championship team; took huge strides forward in his sophomore year; injuries derailed half of third year and entirety of last year; if he can return healthy, he's a good tackle.
'11: Derek Sherrod - Has been injured most of his career; no significant injury history to speak of in college.
'12: Nick Perry - Has been sidelined by injuries; no significant injury history to speak of in college; has flashed when healthy.
'13: Datone Jones - Didn't play much rookie year; niggling injuries didn't help; hard to judge after only one year but needs to take a big step forward.
'14: Haha Clinton-Dix - Just drafted.

Excluding Haha from the count, 4 of the 10 have been named to at least 1 pro bowl and a 5th has been named as an alternate. 2 of those 5 are at or above Graham's level (Rodgers and Matthews). 4 of the others have missed significant time if not almost their entire career to date due to injury while only 1 of those was flagged as a significant injury risk coming in. The remaining player has only had his rookie year. The first round picks have not been as bad as you're making out. There's no guarantees, but they do have a pretty high expected value and that's what you use in any cost-benefit analysis of a transaction. And keep in mind that under the new CBA, first round draft picks are very cap friendly for their first 4 years.

Bottom line: two first round picks and a contract that means we probably have to let a couple other pieces go is a hefty price tag for any player.

uffda udfa  
#60 Posted : Saturday, July 5, 2014 7:50:13 PM(UTC)
:) Oh, boy... Of course I think I'm right...don't you? Obviously, you do.

I've seen this overwhelming aversion to giving up 1st round picks but a look at Packers history puts that concern to bed but I guess the illusion/delusion that we're going to draft a Hall of Famer two years running is too strong.

Would you prefer I not debate and just post a general thing and stay silent? I can do that with the best of them. That's easy. This is the slow time of the year. There is little to talk about. The subject is of interest to me and I think there is a ton of fuzzy thinking against doing things like this. I believe many have Herschel Walker burned into their brains as one move like this that failed. It worked out well for Minnesota when they got Jared Allen. Do you think some Vike fans weren't horrified like the many here about what they gave up? It was a 1st and two 3rds after the franchise tag was placed on him by KC. Do you think there's a Vikings fan out there who regrets a 1st and 2 3rds for Jared Allen now? He was a prolific sackmaster when they made the deal and he stayed that way for several seasons. I think you remember him...if not ask Darryn Colledge or TJ Lang if they do.

If the argument change to a 1st and 2 3rd's would you consider it? It isn't for sure that it would take two 1st's to get Jimmy that's what the tag requires.

Maybe, Jimmy Graham doesn't do it for some and is viewed differently than I view him?

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