mi_keys
8 years ago

My point is this... Yes, we "draft and develop" but so does every other team in the NFL. There isn't a team in the NFL who doesn't participate in the NFL draft year after year and there isn't a team who gets rid of all the guys they draft every single year.

Originally Posted by: uffda udfa 



There isn't a single person on this forum that has alleged otherwise. sschind, in the very post you quoted, agreed that every team participates in the draft.

By definition, all teams...draft...and...develop.

Originally Posted by: uffda udfa 



If you want to define it strictly literally, then yes. But that's not the context in which people use the phrase. Again, as sschind laid out, people talk about teams such as the Packers being draft and develop when the focus is on that aspect of roster building.

That is almost exclusively what Ted relies on.

Originally Posted by: uffda udfa 



We know. That's why people talk about the Packers as a "draft and develop" team.

I simply don't like it.

Originally Posted by: uffda udfa 



We know. You tell us this in almost every single thread you post in.

I also do not like adding multiple FA's every single year.

Originally Posted by: uffda udfa 



Cool. Something we agree on.

What I do like is adding a difference maker and we rarely ever do such a thing and that is a major frustration when we have a QB like we have now. Ted Thompson would rather wait 3 or 4 years to see if we might have a blue chipper rather than spend, now, to maybe get one immediately.

Originally Posted by: uffda udfa 



Bold added for emphasis and underlined word added full stop. That's the point you never represent accurately: you always represent the potential for failure in drafting and never represent the potential for failure in FA. No free agent is a sure thing. Lots and lots of them flop horrifically. Some do okay but don't live up to expectations. Others light it up. But it is never a guarantee.

You also always insist on phrasing the draft route as strictly 3 to 4 years down the road. Sure, some do take time to develop. Others make an impact right away.

I think that is ridiculously wrong. He wants to save money and is always thinking about years down the road and misses too much of what is going on right now with his robotic plodding approach that, btw, only works if you have an all world QB.

Originally Posted by: uffda udfa 



And your usual straw man about how he's only worried about the future or saving money. No, he has a philosophical difference as to how create the best odds at winning the most number of titles. That's it. Maybe he's wrong overall, and he certainly has been on individual players or moves (as all GMs have been), but you harping on and on and on about your philosophical differences and rehashing the same strawman argument incessently does nothing to show if, and how, he might be wrong.

I admire teams for going for it and trying. People always want to point to the teams that don't win the SB while using FA. Well, our team has been there 1 time this century using draft and develop. See, look at what a failure it is! One SB appearance in 15 years. It's really odd how people look at what they want to see and turn blind eye to reality. Again, I will always admire a team/GM who GOES FOR IT, not one who just plods along hoping and wishing.

Originally Posted by: uffda udfa 


Ted Thompson has been here 10 years. Not sure what 5 years of Sherman incompetence has to do with him. Hell, Sherman was someone who would go for it from time to time and wiffed horribly with bums like Hardy Nickerson and Joe Johnson. TT's overseen 1 Super Bowl title in 10 years. Considering there are 32 teams, that's not a failure.

By the way, with 32 teams, the average expected number of years between Super Bowl appearances is 16 years. So even your grouping Sherman's failures in with Ted Thompson doesn't make Green Bay's performance over that tenure an outright failure.

The rest of your "blind eye to reality", "go for it", and "plodding along" comments are rhetorical fluff.

The draft and develop approach views the risk of heavy activity in free agency as outweighing the expected return. It's that simple. You spend big on a free agent and you might not have the capspace to retain your young talent. And if that free agent doesn't pan out you've now bled away some of your young talent for a bust or you've cut said bust and you're now carrying dead cap space. That's the potential failure of free agency.

The draft and develop approach is most assuredly not a philosophy of not giving a shit. That's a strawman.
Born and bred a cheesehead
Barfarn
8 years ago

What I do like is adding a difference maker and we rarely ever do such a thing and that is a major frustration when we have a QB like we have now. Ted Thompson would rather wait 3 or 4 years to see if we might have a blue chipper rather than spend, now, to get one immediately. I think that is ridiculously wrong.
I admire teams for going for it and trying. People always want to point to the teams that don't win the SB while using FA. Well, our team has been there 1 time this century using draft and develop. See, look at what a failure it is! One SB appearance in 15 years. It's really odd how people look at what they want to see and turn blind eye to reality. Again, I will always admire a team/GM who GOES FOR IT, not one who just plods along hoping and wishing.

Originally Posted by: uffda udfa 



"blind eye to reality?"
Dude, That's YOU! Everyone else is talking concrete facts and real examples, BUT YOU.

Meanwhile you spout these verbal Escher diagrams.

Do you think Ted Thompson can sitting back pluck difference making FAs like ordering a McDouble from McDonalds? There is typically no more than 1or 2 in any year and sometimes there are NONE! Then there's the alternative costs for these 1-2, if ya pay them trillions, like, who gets cut or not signed as a result? And sometimes a guy that otherwise might be a difference maker on the football field, isn't; because of personal issues like, he is unhappy living away from family or his wife/kids are unhappy they had to be transplanted.

True, all teams draft and develop, it's just that few, if any, are a disciplined about it as TT. So just like everyone lies; one who is identified as a liar is one who does it often.

In last 5 years, TT's D&D methods provided Mike McCarthy with a roster for 3 SB appearances [if not for a Bosticide and of a death of a coach's son] and perhaps more if not for a plague of injuries; 4 div champs; 5 PO appearances.

And i know what yer thinking...about the 3 SB appearance comment. But, getting to SB is a confluence of SEVERAL things. The issue at hand is about whether TT's D&D methods provide SB rosters, not if other factors prevented those rosters from getting to SB. If other factors stopped the SB appearances the subject rosters were destined to deliver, it is outright stupid to change the part of the confluence that works. STUPID!

And to change it to the "going for it" method that is proven not to work is certifiably STUPID.
uffda udfa
8 years ago

"blind eye to reality?"
Dude, That's YOU! Everyone else is talking concrete facts and real examples, BUT YOU.

Meanwhile you spout these verbal Escher diagrams.

Do you think Ted Thompson can sitting back pluck difference making FAs like ordering a McDouble from McDonalds? There is typically no more than 1or 2 in any year and sometimes there are NONE! Then there's the alternative costs for these 1-2, if ya pay them trillions, like, who gets cut or not signed as a result? And sometimes a guy that otherwise might be a difference maker on the football field, isn't; because of personal issues like, he is unhappy living away from family or his wife/kids are unhappy they had to be transplanted.

True, all teams draft and develop, it's just that few, if any, are a disciplined about it as TT. So just like everyone lies; one who is identified as a liar is one who does it often.

In last 5 years, TT's D&D methods provided Mike McCarthy with a roster for 3 SB appearances [if not for a Bosticide and of a death of a coach's son] and perhaps more if not for a plague of injuries; 4 div champs; 5 PO appearances.

And i know what yer thinking...about the 3 SB appearance comment. But, getting to SB is a confluence of SEVERAL things. The issue at hand is about whether TT's D&D methods provide SB rosters, not if other factors prevented those rosters from getting to SB. If other factors stopped the SB appearances the subject rosters were destined to deliver, it is outright stupid to change the part of the confluence that works. STUPID!

And to change it to the "going for it" method that is proven not to work is certifiably STUPID.

Originally Posted by: Barfarn 



The going for it method has proven not to work? Oh, you mean like New England last year? ...or Seattle the year before?

The average span of being in or winning a SB is 16 years? Tell that to Detroit, Philly, Cleveland, Arizona, etc. Heck, tell that one to New England. We have Aaron Rodgers at QB and Favre before him. I think we should've been there a little more than we have if we had the GM'ing/Coaching that we believe we have, but we don't.

I find it hysterical to see that Ted Thompson has a philosophical difference on how to create the best odds at winning the most number of titles. The titles you must be referring to have to be divisional because you sure can't mean Super Bowl. Barfarn...I know that wasn't you.

The truth is and will remain that we've had back to back two of the better QB's to ever play the game and we've been to the SB 3 times. New England has won more than that over less time because why? They are the better organization. Plain and simple. Our GM/GM's and coaching just isn't as good as theirs nor have our total team talent either.






UserPostedImage
Ted Thompson sits on his hands per former GM: "because they’ve had 25 fricking years of great quarterbacks. Of course it works. Try it without a special quarterback."


mi_keys
8 years ago

The average span of being in or winning a SB is 16 years? Tell that to Detroit, Philly, Cleveland, Arizona, etc. Heck, tell that one to New England. We have Aaron Rodgers at QB and Favre before him. I think we should've been there a little more than we have if we had the GM'ing/Coaching that we believe we have, but we don't.

Originally Posted by: uffda udfa 



Lol, so there's teams that have done better and teams that have done worse than the average? Wow. Thanks for that grand insight. Do you know what an average is?


Born and bred a cheesehead
uffda udfa
8 years ago

Lol, so there's teams that have done better and teams that have done worse than the average? Wow. Thanks for that grand insight. Do you know what an average is?

Originally Posted by: mi_keys 



Yes. I also know what it means for us to have a QB who is better everyone else's and not capitalizing on those rare years in franchise history. The comfort level with just winning the division is really sad considering how special our guy under center is. It's okay...stay on cruise control and drive 55...we'll never get to the ultimate destination but I'm sure there'll be some pretty scenery along the way that will be comforting to many of the passengers.

UserPostedImage
Ted Thompson sits on his hands per former GM: "because they’ve had 25 fricking years of great quarterbacks. Of course it works. Try it without a special quarterback."


Barfarn
8 years ago

The going for it method has proven not to work? Oh, you mean like New England last year? ...or Seattle the year before?

Originally Posted by: uffda udfa 



Why do you try to make points through snarky loaded questions? Why cant you just state an OPINION in a scholarly, respectful and honorable way?

31 other teams "go for it." If two of the 31 make SB, it's either just random luck or other factors caused that result beside "go[ing] for it." Either way this approach doesn't help your argument. It like betting on all the horses in the Kentucky Derby; and jumping up and down cheering because ya picked the winner.

FA acquisitions have destroyed Seattle. A brilliant core of 1st contract studs from 2010-12 [using TT's draft board] producing only 1 SB worthy roster [given the Bosticide], which for that one appearance the ONLY reason is the 1st contract studs and done DESPITE FA moves. If Bradford and Palmer don't get hurt Seattle misses POs in 2014; And no playoffs for Seapigeons in 2015. 29M in dead cap over 2 years because of numerous FA signings and their only 2 contributing FAs [Bennett and Avril] played 19 games in 2014 and got eleven (11) sacks on OLman named other than Sherrod.
texaspackerbacker
8 years ago

The going for it method has proven not to work? Oh, you mean like New England last year? ...or Seattle the year before?

The average span of being in or winning a SB is 16 years? Tell that to Detroit, Philly, Cleveland, Arizona, etc. Heck, tell that one to New England. We have Aaron Rodgers at QB and Favre before him. I think we should've been there a little more than we have if we had the GM'ing/Coaching that we believe we have, but we don't.

I find it hysterical to see that Ted Thompson has a philosophical difference on how to create the best odds at winning the most number of titles. The titles you must be referring to have to be divisional because you sure can't mean Super Bowl. Barfarn...I know that wasn't you.

The truth is and will remain that we've had back to back two of the better QB's to ever play the game and we've been to the SB 3 times. New England has won more than that over less time because why? They are the better organization. Plain and simple. Our GM/GM's and coaching just isn't as good as theirs nor have our total team talent either.

Originally Posted by: uffda udfa 



There's a lot of validity to what you say. It's basically a matter of degree regarding the "draft and develop" thing compared to rampant pursuit of other teams' free agents.

On the one hand, for as ardent a Ted Thompson detractor as you are, the Packer success you yourself describe make him look like a damn genius. On the other hand, it comes down to cause and effect. Is Ted Thompson and the emphasis on draft and development indeed the CAUSE of success? Or is the cause those two magnificent items of good fortune - one under Wolfe, one under Thompson - the extreme skill or dumb luck, take your pick - of getting those two great QBs?

I'm not the hater of Thompson you are, but I do indict him for failing to maximize the situation - being so extreme in his dedication to "draft and develop" that he hasn't put the best team he could have on the field to support his superstar.


Expressing the Good Normal Views of Good Normal Americans.
If Anything I Say Smacks of Extremism, Please Tell Me EXACTLY What.
mi_keys
8 years ago

Yes. I also know what it means for us to have a QB who is better everyone else's and not capitalizing on those rare years in franchise history. The comfort level with just winning the division is really sad considering how special our guy under center is. It's okay...stay on cruise control and drive 55...we'll never get to the ultimate destination but I'm sure there'll be some pretty scenery along the way that will be comforting to many of the passengers.

Originally Posted by: uffda udfa 



When all else fails, just rehash the same baseless accusation that others don't want to win a title.
Born and bred a cheesehead
uffda udfa
8 years ago

When all else fails, just rehash the same baseless accusation that others don't want to win a title.

Originally Posted by: mi_keys 



Oh, his lack of going for it in free agency is the exact opposite of "baseless" but you can think otherwise if you wish.
Ted Thompson is not going all out or "all in" as it were in each individual season. I know you think he does.


UserPostedImage
Ted Thompson sits on his hands per former GM: "because they’ve had 25 fricking years of great quarterbacks. Of course it works. Try it without a special quarterback."


RaiderPride
8 years ago

Yes. I also know what it means for us to have a QB who is better everyone else's and not capitalizing on those rare years in franchise history. The comfort level with just winning the division is really sad considering how special our guy under center is. It's okay...stay on cruise control and drive 55... we'll never get to the ultimate destination but I'm sure there'll be some pretty scenery along the way that will be comforting to many of the passengers.

Originally Posted by: uffda udfa 



"We'll never get to the ultimate destination."

Never? Really?


I have to ask?

Were you in a medically induced coma when Aaron drove away with that sick Chevrolet Camaro for being the MVP after reaching the ultimate destination?
""People Will Probably Never Remember What You Said, And May Never Remember What You Did. However, People Will Always Remember How You Made Them Feel."
Fan Shout
Zero2Cool (8h) : Chase Young to sign $13M contract with Saints
Zero2Cool (8h) : Yosh to Panthers what noooo. Wait he didn't do crap
wpr (18-Mar) : I say that he is technically HER BIL as he married her sister. I checked it out, he's considered my BIL as well. Sad.
Mucky Tundra (18-Mar) : wpr, I assume its your BIL via marriage to your wife? If so, I can figure out where the smarts in the family went ;)
wpr (18-Mar) : Mucky my B-I-L is Bare Stupid. I could write a book.
Mucky Tundra (18-Mar) : As a teenager in Rockford IL I would get heckled by adults in public for wearing GB gear
Mucky Tundra (18-Mar) : if you think the online ones are bad, try *living amongst* them
Mucky Tundra (18-Mar) : Never doubt wprs loyalty. Poor guy is surrounded by Bears fans in Northern IL
wpr (17-Mar) : pass Martha. Thanks for the invite though.
Martha Careful (17-Mar) : blog * as the same ugly Illinois colors were adopted by the Baer
Martha Careful (17-Mar) : WPR, perhaps you should be joining the Bears fans blog has the same ugly Illinois colors were adopted by the Bears
Mucky Tundra (17-Mar) : Ah a fellow U of Illinois hater. I can respect that though I imagine it's for different reasons
Zero2Cool (17-Mar) : BTW. I didn't catch the game. I just hate Illinois.
Mucky Tundra (17-Mar) : They're your Big Ten Chumps and you will like it!
Zero2Cool (17-Mar) : No, not for the record. Referee's handled that BS. Orange team was trash ass
Mucky Tundra (17-Mar) : *Your* Big Ten Chumps for the record
Zero2Cool (17-Mar) : No, not Big Ten Champs. IL is big ten CHUMPS
wpr (17-Mar) : Big Ten Champs
wpr (17-Mar) : !!!
wpr (17-Mar) : INI
wpr (17-Mar) : ILL
Martha Careful (17-Mar) : Wisconsin with an outstanding on in the men’s Big Ten basketball tournament. Let’s hope it continues in the NCAAs
Zero2Cool (17-Mar) : Almost like taking QB in 2020 even if you don't need one is good move.
Mucky Tundra (16-Mar) : 2021 QB Draft class looking like a real clunker
Mucky Tundra (16-Mar) : A conditional 6th rounder? I remember Bears fans arguing they'd get a day 2 pick at worst lol
dfosterf (16-Mar) : So I got the no extension part right and the have to wait on the CW physical wrong
Zero2Cool (16-Mar) : Bears are trading Justin Fields for a 2025 6th-round pick that goes to a 4th-round pick based on playtime, per sources.
Zero2Cool (16-Mar) : Former Packer Jarrett Bush opens Wisconsin’s first blow dry bar in Green Bay
dfosterf (16-Mar) : If the Bears are not doing a deal with Washington, they also cannot trade Fields until Williams physical with them. All hail Caleb Williams!
dfosterf (16-Mar) : The talent is undeniable, but the (advertised) haul is obscene.
dfosterf (16-Mar) : If the Bears are cutting a deal with the Commanders, in either scenario, cannot happen until williams passes a Commanders physical
dfosterf (16-Mar) : My guess is no to the Fields extension, but yes to the trade back with the Commanders.
dhazer (15-Mar) : I think the Bears do a Love extension and they will trade out of the 1st pick and take the haul
Martha Careful (15-Mar) : that might make sense
Zero2Cool (15-Mar) : Justin Fields to Steelers?
Zero2Cool (15-Mar) : Kenny Pickett. Eagles. Done.
Zero2Cool (15-Mar) : They can claim best two WR tandem.
Mucky Tundra (15-Mar) : Aaron Donald retiring
dhazer (15-Mar) : Campbell signing with 49ers
dhazer (15-Mar) : I love how the Bear Fans are now claiming they have the best skill players in the NFC North lol
Zero2Cool (15-Mar) : Vikings made a move to get a 2nd first round pick
Mucky Tundra (15-Mar) : That's a not a bad deal for the Bears
Zero2Cool (15-Mar) : Bears have traded for WR Keenan Allen sending Chargers a fourth rounder.
Martha Careful (15-Mar) : *signs
Martha Careful (14-Mar) : MLB Devon White science with the Eagles
Mucky Tundra (14-Mar) : But that was before FA started
Mucky Tundra (14-Mar) : Dhaze, I thought Kurls would be their #1 target when I read that he was an Amos comp (jack of all trades guy)
dhazer (14-Mar) : I would like to see the Packers target 2 more FA still available Kamren Curl Safety and Chase Young edge
Martha Careful (14-Mar) : wow...didn't see that coming
Zero2Cool (14-Mar) : AJ Dillon re-signing with Packers.
Please sign in to use Fan Shout
2023 Packers Schedule
Sunday, Sep 10 @ 3:25 PM
Bears
Sunday, Sep 17 @ 12:00 PM
Falcons
Sunday, Sep 24 @ 12:00 PM
SAINTS
Thursday, Sep 28 @ 7:15 PM
LIONS
Monday, Oct 9 @ 7:15 PM
Raiders
Sunday, Oct 22 @ 3:25 PM
Broncos
Sunday, Oct 29 @ 12:00 PM
VIKINGS
Sunday, Nov 5 @ 12:00 PM
RAMS
Sunday, Nov 12 @ 12:00 PM
Steelers
Sunday, Nov 19 @ 12:00 PM
CHARGERS
Thursday, Nov 23 @ 11:30 AM
Lions
Sunday, Dec 3 @ 7:20 PM
CHIEFS
Monday, Dec 11 @ 7:15 PM
Giants
Sunday, Dec 17 @ 12:00 PM
BUCCANEERS
Sunday, Dec 24 @ 12:00 PM
Panthers
Sunday, Dec 31 @ 7:20 PM
Vikings
Sunday, Jan 7 @ 3:25 PM
BEARS
Sunday, Jan 14 @ 3:30 PM
Cowboys
Saturday, Jan 20 @ 7:15 PM
49ers
Recent Topics
5h / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

13h / Green Bay Packers Talk / dfosterf

14h / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

18-Mar / Around The NFL / Mucky Tundra

16-Mar / Random Babble / Martha Careful

16-Mar / Green Bay Packers Talk / TheKanataThrilla

15-Mar / Green Bay Packers Talk / dhazer

15-Mar / Green Bay Packers Talk / dfosterf

14-Mar / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

14-Mar / Random Babble / Zero2Cool

14-Mar / Green Bay Packers Talk / dfosterf

13-Mar / Random Babble / Zero2Cool

13-Mar / Green Bay Packers Talk / Martha Careful

13-Mar / Green Bay Packers Talk / Martha Careful

13-Mar / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

Headlines
Copyright © 2006 - 2024 PackersHome.com™. All Rights Reserved.