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Offline Since69  
#1 Posted : Tuesday, January 20, 2009 3:51:21 PM(UTC)
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The sexiest part of a 3-4 defense is its outside linebackers. They're the ones that gets the sacks (and probably, the cheerleaders).

IMO, however, the most important part of a 3-4 is the defensive line in general, and the defensive tackle in particular. When I think of a 3-4 DT, I think of a space-eater: someone who can take on two blockers and not get pushed backwards. Vince Wilfork, Grady Jackson, Casey Hampton, etc.

Do we have that guy? Pickett is the obvious choice, but what about Colin Cole? Justin Harrell? Johnny Jolly? Physically, we have several players who could fit the bill:

Code:

Pickett 6-2 330
Cole 6-1 330
Jolly 6-3 320
Harrell 6-4 320
Bledsoe (PS) 6-3 329


Is is possible that one or more of these, while not excelling in a 4-3, could be a good fit for the 3-4?

And if not, who's available that we could pick up?

Obviously, Albert Haynesworth. But what about Tommie Harris? Rocky Bernard? Tank Johnson? (OK, forget Tank).
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Offline go.pack.go.  
#2 Posted : Tuesday, January 20, 2009 3:55:18 PM(UTC)
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Why forget Tank? He hasn't got in any trouble since going to Dallas.
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Offline PackFanWithTwins  
#3 Posted : Tuesday, January 20, 2009 4:00:42 PM(UTC)
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I think Tank would be a good pickup. He will not be a high salary player and will fit at DE pretty good with Jenkins and Kampman.
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Offline Pack93z  
#4 Posted : Tuesday, January 20, 2009 4:01:06 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
Why forget Tank? He hasn't got in any trouble since going to Dallas.


Because he struggled in the 3-4 there.. one game I think Tank was yelling at Roy Williams to get the hell out of the way I am coming through with a guard still kicking the shit out of him.

In other words.. he struggled going from the Chitown 4-3 to the 3-4... not enough marbles in the drawers. IMO.. doesn't fit the NT.. end maybe?
I think when there's enough will and aggression, there's no shortage of talent either.

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Offline go.pack.go.  
#5 Posted : Tuesday, January 20, 2009 7:28:40 PM(UTC)
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Yeah, he'd work as an end.
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Offline toronto_cheesehead  
#6 Posted : Tuesday, January 20, 2009 8:42:53 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
Yeah, he'd work as an end.


I'm not too sure about that. He seemed to have his best years in a one gap Tampa-2 scheme. We're already going to be playing with one guy who I think is best suited in a one-gap defense (Jenkins), no need to bring in another.
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Offline Yerko  
#7 Posted : Tuesday, January 20, 2009 8:49:38 PM(UTC)
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I think we are good with what we have at the nose. No need to bring in any free agents at this position.
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Offline HoustonMatt  
#8 Posted : Tuesday, January 20, 2009 10:27:00 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
I think we are good with what we have at the nose. No need to bring in any free agents at this position.


I agree. Even if you don't think Pickett is the ideal NT, he should be passable. And given that he has no other position, releasing him plus signing a FA (of which only Haynesworth is a significant upgrade) just isn't worth the cost.

With that said, a NT does need to be drafted. Pickett is on the wrong side of 30 and it would be foolish not to have a replacement ready when his contract expires.
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Offline blueleopard  
#9 Posted : Wednesday, January 21, 2009 12:32:27 AM(UTC)
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Ideally, you want anybody over 6-2 and 325.

It looks wide open with the sizes you listed. But I give Pickett and Cole the edge.

Harrell could be a surprise and Bledsoe can be a dark horse. I mean... we have to have signed Bledsoe for a reason, right?
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Offline JNelson87  
#10 Posted : Wednesday, January 21, 2009 4:13:31 AM(UTC)
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Harrell is a huge dude. He could be the NT if he stays healthy.
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Offline toronto_cheesehead  
#11 Posted : Wednesday, January 21, 2009 4:33:43 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
Harrell is a huge dude. He could be the NT if he stays healthy.


There was talk about him being a 34 DE in his draft year, so maybe we shed him back down to around 300 pounds and use him there. Maybe carrying less weight will help him out health wise too.
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Offline djcubez  
#12 Posted : Wednesday, January 21, 2009 8:50:43 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
Harrell is a huge dude. He could be the NT if he stays healthy.


There was talk about him being a 34 DE in his draft year, so maybe we shed him back down to around 300 pounds and use him there. Maybe carrying less weight will help him out health wise too.

It's funny, the more and more I hear about this 3-4 defense the more I think that Mike McCarthy and Ted Thompson has this in planning before this year...
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Offline Dulak  
#13 Posted : Wednesday, January 21, 2009 11:14:52 AM(UTC)
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So what do the 3 men down do in a 3-4? Basically stuff the run? shut the gaps down and take the runner out of the middle there?

So our OLBs either take out the runner on their side of the ball - take up screens and/or short passes and of course QB rush.

I bet well have kampman as a OLB (big but too small for a downline man in a 3-4). Perhaps they will use him as a OLB/DE kind of a mix depending on what our new DC calls for.

Then we just need another prime OLB/DE type of guy. Orankpo (ya spelling) or suggs or peppers. I woudl be extatic if we got 2 of the 3 above.
We got enough LBs atm to cover what we need.

Perhaps we can get away with not having to FA/draft a big NT and just use pickett or Colin. I always liked how jenkins played so hes a for sure downline man DE.

Id expect them to pick up 1-2 decent O guys also.
We seem to have enough WRs and TEs and enough RBs (Kuhn as a FB seemed to work well when they used him on occasion).

Dont know where else they would fill out the O besides the line. They would have to spend too much to get a RB better then grant/jackson
Offline Since69  
#14 Posted : Thursday, January 22, 2009 4:35:02 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post

It's funny, the more and more I hear about this 3-4 defense the more I think that Mike McCarthy and Ted Thompson has this in planning before this year...


I kinda get the same feeling. Remember how confused we were when we cut Tracy White? We did it so we could move Danny Lansanah to the active roster to keep the Tuna from stealing him for Miami. We all know how much Tuna loves the 3-4...

Lansanah's got the right size (6-1, 250-ish) for a pass-rush LB. And good speed, if I remember the preseason correctly...
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Offline Nonstopdrivel  
#15 Posted : Thursday, January 22, 2009 5:00:46 PM(UTC)
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How dare you guys make these base allegations of competence and foresight when it's transparently obvious to everyone Mike McCarthy and Ted Thompson haven't the faintest clue what they're doing? :D
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Offline PackFanWithTwins  
#16 Posted : Friday, January 23, 2009 12:24:44 PM(UTC)
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Still seems everyone thinks that Dline in the 3-4 has to be a bunch of hogs. When the truth is, they don't. Many running the 3-4 are smaller than the theoretical 340 lb beast at NT with big DE's. Players ability is more important than size. lining up 3-300 lbers that are strong and quick pose more of a difficulty for the O than a 340 that is just there to be a stump.
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Offline Pack93z  
#17 Posted : Friday, January 23, 2009 1:12:42 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
Still seems everyone thinks that Dline in the 3-4 has to be a bunch of hogs. When the truth is, they don't. Many running the 3-4 are smaller than the theoretical 340 lb beast at NT with big DE's. Players ability is more important than size. lining up 3-300 lbers that are strong and quick pose more of a difficulty for the O than a 340 that is just there to be a stump.


Agreed, but when I say the man in the middle has to be a beast, I mean that he has got to have the proper attitude and demeanor to play the position.. I remember when Jurko used to piss and moan about getting chipped and chopped in two directions in the two gap 4-3 we played in the early 90's.. that is nothing compared to lining up straight over the center and having the hits come from either side.. takes a "beast" of a man to anchor the nose.

Need to have a certain amount of pissedoffness to play it.. and take pride in just doing your job. The media and stats aren't going to tell the real story.. team first attitude.

And if the guy isn't going to be a space eater and chew up blocks, you better have a couple of backers in the middle that can shed blocks and plug.. we seem to be short in that area currently. I think Hawk is still waiting for the back to get to him, that is when he isn't blocked. :lol:
I think when there's enough will and aggression, there's no shortage of talent either.

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Offline PackFanWithTwins  
#18 Posted : Saturday, January 24, 2009 12:49:22 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
Still seems everyone thinks that Dline in the 3-4 has to be a bunch of hogs. When the truth is, they don't. Many running the 3-4 are smaller than the theoretical 340 lb beast at NT with big DE's. Players ability is more important than size. lining up 3-300 lbers that are strong and quick pose more of a difficulty for the O than a 340 that is just there to be a stump.


Agreed, but when I say the man in the middle has to be a beast, I mean that he has got to have the proper attitude and demeanor to play the position.. I remember when Jurko used to piss and moan about getting chipped and chopped in two directions in the two gap 4-3 we played in the early 90's.. that is nothing compared to lining up straight over the center and having the hits come from either side.. takes a "beast" of a man to anchor the nose.

Need to have a certain amount of pissedoffness to play it.. and take pride in just doing your job. The media and stats aren't going to tell the real story.. team first attitude.

And if the guy isn't going to be a space eater and chew up blocks, you better have a couple of backers in the middle that can shed blocks and plug.. we seem to be short in that area currently. I think Hawk is still waiting for the back to get to him, that is when he isn't blocked. :lol:


Also remember that Jurko was the NT before switching to the 4-3 also. That is why I think Kampman could be a force at DE in the 3-4 because of his attitude and work ethic. Jenkins will be a great DE also, and getting Harrell to be healthy for a year, could be the beast at NT.

Also if you watch NT does not always line up over center. Ngata was lining up at DE for Baltimore a lot. Pulling the double to 1 side making the opposite side have to deal with two DEs and the blitzing LBer.
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Offline all_about_da_packers  
#19 Posted : Saturday, January 24, 2009 4:11:50 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
Harrell is a huge dude. He could be the NT if he stays healthy.


There was talk about him being a 34 DE in his draft year, so maybe we shed him back down to around 300 pounds and use him there. Maybe carrying less weight will help him out health wise too.



Harrell, although listed at 320, might be closer to 310.

His "normal" playing weight in college was 310, and in his rookie year the Packers had him bulk upto 320.

At the end of the year, Harrell said he wasn't comfortable at 320, that he felt sluggish and uncomfortable at that playing weight.

Robert Nunn, then DT coach, also said at the end of Harrell's rookie year that the Packers were going to seriously consider having Harrell slim back down to 310, where he feels much more mobile and comfortable.

I'm not sure if that actually happened, it was reported Harrell was out of shape in the off-season, but I think he's much more closer to a 3-4 DE than a 3-4 NT.
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Offline all_about_da_packers  
#20 Posted : Saturday, January 24, 2009 5:24:46 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
[size=24][/size]Do we have that guy? Pickett is the obvious choice, but what about Colin Cole? Justin Harrell? Johnny Jolly? Physically, we have several players who could fit the bill:

Code:

Pickett 6-2 330
Cole 6-1 330
Jolly 6-3 320
Harrell 6-4 320
Bledsoe (PS) 6-3 329



I've read from a couple of sources now that Pickett, while listed at 320, is actually in the 340-350 range.

I'm going to come out and say now that our two main NTs for next year are already on the roster. Pickett is one, and I believe Jolly is the other. I believe he has the body type of NT (clearly) but more importantly listing Jolly at 320 is being generous, too, IMO.

We'll need another NT body type, but I think can't see the Packers keeping more than 3 NTs next year. Two of which, IMO, are already on the roster. I'd lean towards the 3rd NT being a vet FA pick-up to help ease the transition. If we draft Raji, I think he'll be more of a 3-4 DE, at least in the early stages.
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Offline beast  
#21 Posted : Saturday, January 24, 2009 5:28:14 AM(UTC)
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First of all we would need to figure out what kind of 3-4 the Packers plan on running. Yes there are different type just like there are different type of 4-3.

First off Cole isn't signed with the Packers and turned down there offer. Second he would complete suck at NT. Yes he's body is huge, but a huge body doesn't mean your any good at football. Cole suck at two gap which is what the NT usually (not always depending on the system) does. Cole would more likely be a DE. Because all he's good at is bull rushing one on one.

The two players currently on the Roster that can play good at two gap NT are Pickett and Harrell (if healthy). Maybe somebody else grow into it or one of the younger guys I haven't seen much of could also.....

Jolly, Jenkins, Harrell, Cole (if he resigns) and Montgomery (if he resigns) could play DE in this system. (Kampman could too but sounds like they are making him an OLB)

Also I would be looking at those DTs from Boston College in the draft and a few others because I think the Packers need more DL.
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Offline all_about_da_packers  
#22 Posted : Saturday, January 24, 2009 6:13:10 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
The two players currently on the Roster that can play good at two gap NT are Pickett and Harrell (if healthy). Maybe somebody else grow into it or one of the younger guys I haven't seen much of could also....


Harrell is interesting because he is very strong, and has the ability to become a NT if he fills out even more.

My only problem with Harrell though is that he will struggle with added bulk, because I feel he needs to be a bit more bulky to fit as a NT. Harrell has said in the past he'd prefer to play around 310, which is what he played at in college. That makes him a difficult fit for a NT.

I still think Jolly is our second NT, more so than a DE. He's listed at 320, but I'd guess he's at least 330. He's got a thick body, very instinctive, and frankly he plays with an attitude. I think he's got the tools to be a very effective NT.
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Offline dfosterf  
#23 Posted : Saturday, January 24, 2009 12:35:35 PM(UTC)
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Have you fellas ever heard of the planet theory? There is a strong argument made that this theory is what brought Justin Harrell to the Packers at 16. There are several articles available to explain. In a google box, type in "planet theory nfl" (without the quotes) I found the athelon article particularly enlightening... So many said (and say) we "reached" for Justin, and "blame" Ted Thompson for doing so. I recommend all take a moment to do this little google exercise, especially as we debate the merits of B.J. Raji, for example.
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Offline Pack93z  
#24 Posted : Saturday, January 24, 2009 1:22:59 PM(UTC)
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That is why Pieria Jerry will begin to rocket up boards.. with the show he is putting on at the Senior Bowl.. he will climb the draft boards.

Raji as well.. both have shown that they can penetrate, take on the doubles and both look pretty unstoppable against any of the oline talent at the senior bowl.

Read complete article...

Quote:
The famous Planet Theory originated by the late great N.Y. Giants executive George Young and popularized by Parcells states that there are a finite number of athletic 300-pounders on Earth. And when a team has a chance to draft one, it should.
I think when there's enough will and aggression, there's no shortage of talent either.

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Offline Megatron  
#25 Posted : Saturday, January 24, 2009 1:42:57 PM(UTC)
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i've been reading good things about Pieria Jerry but my biggest knock against him is his age. He will be 25 by the time next season comes around. At that age he got to be ready to play in the NFL straight away otherwise we would have to wait a year or two for him to finally come good. By then he could be 27!! investing a high draft pick for him is a risk as it means if he does come good, you could only get maybe 3 or 4 years out of him before he his production starts declining.

A player in the same position is Ziggy Hood is 22 and has apparently impressed in the senior bowl with his vast array of pass rush moves. A high draft pick for him is fine because you could have him producing at a high level for a longer period of time even with the inital adjustment period to the NFL before he starts producing consistently.
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