beast
6 years ago

My only question on the Zeke play was the camera they used to make the final call.

Maybe I'm wrong, but from what I got from the guys in the booth was that camera angle is not available in most stadiums.

Would like to hear others thoughts on that.

Originally Posted by: buckeyepackfan 



I think the sky cam is now available in most stadiums.... weather the refs have access to that camera or it's just the TV crews, I have no idea about.

My interpretation of what the booth was saying, was that they were surprised the sky cam was the only cam that caught that extra reach, and that it was the best angle. In my interpretation, they seemed to be suggesting that it was very rare, for the sky cam to either be the best best angle and/or the only angle... and they found it surprising and funny for some reason. That's my interpretation, I am not sure that is the correct interpretation or not.
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PackFanWithTwins
6 years ago
Barfarn

down by contact, Forward Progress, Player out of bounds. They have nothing to do with the position of the ball, they are solely for the purpose of blowing the play dead. Once the play is blown dead the officials then need to determine the spot of the ball. both Elliots and Beasley play were both spot of ball challenges and both plays were plays where the ball carriers forward momentum was stopped by a defender/defenders. both of them they got correct under the rules.




The world needs ditch diggers too Danny!!!
Barfarn
  • Barfarn
  • Senior Member Topic Starter
6 years ago

If I understand the rule correctly (and I am NOT sure that I do), the reviews got both the Beasley and Elliot calls correct. As the ball gets marked at the furthest distances while the player is either downed, touched or held up.

Originally Posted by: beast 



My only question on the Zeke play was the camera they used to make the final call.

Maybe I'm wrong, but from what I got from the guys in the booth was that camera angle is not available in most stadiums.

Would like to hear others thoughts on that.

Originally Posted by: buckeyepackfan 



I think the NFL refs clearly disagree with you.

Forward Process can't be reviewed, to say if the play was over or not.

But the ball spot is reviewable even during forward process plays.


This is the forward process part that is nor reviewable... they blew the play dead, so what happened after the whistle does not count. But the Vikings could of challenged the ball spot.

Originally Posted by: beast 



To Buckeye's point: I was yelling at Mike McCarthy for throwing the flag on the Beasley play, because it is IMPOSSIBLE to find "indisputable visual evidence" that established Beasley being short of LTG. I hope someone told MM, "I looks short, but camera angle cannot be verified; we dont have indisputable evidence. This ref, however, has a history of judging these video books by their cover, he doesnt understand how camera angles can distort the actual location of the ball relative to LTG."

Both of those calls were wrong as neither camera angle afforded anyone the ability to conclude indisputable evidence existed. This is the reason they installed Pylon cams a few years ago; so they could at least review GL plays.

Beast, the "touching" thing is about was the guy touched while on the ground or did the touch cause a player to hit the ground. If not "touched" the player is not downed yet.

The Grant fumble in video is a perfect example of which I speak. Grant looks to have clearly fumbled, he was on his feet when the ball came out. But because the ref ruled him down by forward progress the play cannot be reviewed. The reason is that we dont know if the fumble occurred before or after he was ruled downed. If the replay identified the exact moment he was ruled down by forward progress [impossible], then it could be determined if he lost control before he was downed [a fumble] or lost control after he was downed [no fumble] and the play would be reviewable.

Likewise, if Elliot was stopped by FP, just like with the Grant fumble above, we dont exactly know when the play was deemed dead.
If play was dead before Elliot reached-no first.
If play was dead after Elliot reached but before he pulled ball back-Its a first.
If play was dead after Elliot drew ball back to his chest- no first.

Like I said, Elliot was on bodies he never touched the ground until he fell off backside of pile, which was short of First down. HAd Elliot kept his feet, when he fell off backside of pile he could have kept running unless the play was dead by FP.

Now tell me by the replay exactly where is the play blown dead? You don't know and cant know with the present technology. And the refs don't know either. I bet they reviewed it like a GL play, not thinking this is at the 20.
beast
6 years ago

The Grant fumble in video is a perfect example of which I speak.

Originally Posted by: Barfarn 



Actually they're very different issues... and this is where you are mistaken, as a number of people have already told you, but you refuse to accept it.

Now tell me by the replay exactly where is the play blown dead? You don't know and cant know with the present technology. And the refs don't know either. I bet they reviewed it like a GL play, not thinking this is at the 20.

Originally Posted by: Barfarn 



Right AFTER this happened...


see how the ball carrier is still going forward... and then gets pushed back. They're challenging the balls placement... he got to the 19.
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Barfarn
  • Barfarn
  • Senior Member Topic Starter
6 years ago

Barfarn

down by contact, Forward Progress, Player out of bounds. They have nothing to do with the position of the ball, they are solely for the purpose of blowing the play dead. Once the play is blown dead the officials then need to determine the spot of the ball. both Elliots and Beasley play were both spot of ball challenges and both plays were plays where the ball carriers forward momentum was stopped by a defender/defenders. both of them they got correct under the rules

Originally Posted by: PackFanWithTwins 



Yes, refs spot the ball after very tackle. But, when the official determines the spot by forward progress, IT CANT BE CHALLENGED.

Let's try example:

First down marker is at 29.5:

Example A: RB makes contact with a scrum of defenders at the 30, they hold him up at the 30 with his feet churning, then 2 OLmen plow in and push RB down at 29, the ball is spotted at 30, no first down, he's ruled down by contact. The review shows that the players knee didn't hit until 291/2 and at that moment the ball was at 29. The spot of the ball is challenged ball is moved forward to the 29, 1st down.

Example B: RB makes contact with a scrum of defenders at the 30, they hold him up at 30 with his feet churning, then 2 OLmen plow in and push RB down at 29, the ball is spotted at 30, no first down, he's ruled down by forward progress. Coach sees replay of the knee hit at the 291/2, when ball was at 29 and challenges the spot.

It dont matter where the knee hit and it dont matter what the ball's most forward progress was as shown by the video.

THE SPOT OF THE BALL PRODUCED BY THE DOWNING OF A BALL CARRIER VIA A FORWARD PROGRESS DETERMINATION CANNOT BE REVIEWED! [The reason is listed in my previous post!-the replay doesn't tell us exactly when the play was blown dead, so we dont know were to put the ball].
beast
6 years ago

Yes, refs spot the ball after very tackle. But, when the official determines the spot by forward progress, IT CANT BE CHALLENGED.

Originally Posted by: Barfarn 


EXCEPTED IT WAS CHALLENGED!

You're saying the sky can't be blue... then we all look up... and guess what... the sky is blue!
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beast
6 years ago
Note how the Forward Progress rule that is among "NON-REVIEWABLE PLAYS" is about "Whether a runner’s forward progress was stopped before he went out of bounds or lost possession of the ball", which is NOT what happened on the Elliott play!

While "Plays governed by the line to gain" which was the case of what happened, is among the "REVIEWABLE PLAYS".




Article 4. NON-REVIEWABLE PLAYS
The following play situations are not reviewable:
(a) Fouls, except for Article 5 (g) below.
(b) Spot of the ball and runner:
(1) Runner ruled down by defensive contact or out of bounds (not involving fumbles or the line to gain).
(2) The position of the ball not relating to first down or goal line.
(3) Whether a runner’s forward progress was stopped before he went out of bounds or lost possession of the ball.
(4) Whether a runner gave himself up.
(c) Miscellaneous:
(1) Field Goal or Try attempts that cross above either upright without touching anything.
(2) Erroneous whistle.
(3) Spot where an airborne ball crosses the sideline.
(4) Whether a player was blocked into a loose ball.
(5) Advance by a player after a valid or invalid fair catch signal.
(6) Whether a player created the impetus that put the ball into an end zone.

Article 5. REVIEWABLE PLAYS
The Replay System will cover the following play situations:
(a) Plays involving possession.
(b) Plays involving touching of either the ball or the ground.
(c) Plays governed by the goal line.
(d) Plays governed by the boundary lines.
(e) Plays governed by the line of scrimmage.
(f) Plays governed by the line to gain.
(g) Number of players on the field at the snap, even when a foul is not called.
(h) Game administration:
(1) Penalty enforcement.
(2) Proper down.
(3) Spot of a foul.
(4) Status of the game clock.

atlantafalcons.com  wrote:


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Barfarn
  • Barfarn
  • Senior Member Topic Starter
6 years ago

Actually they're very different issues... and this is where you are mistaken, as a number of people have already told you, but you refuse to accept it.

Right AFTER this happened...

see how the ball carrier is still going forward... and then gets pushed back. They're challenging the balls placement... he got to the 19.

Originally Posted by: beast 



I agree with you! "[Elliot was downed] right AFTER this happened" that's not a first down!

The reason why Grant's fumble video isnt reviewable is because we dont know if he fumbled before or after the play was dead and this is the EXACT dynamic at play in you're Elliot video.

The ball gets spotted where a ball carried is downed, right? Now show me where your video confirms where he was DOWNED!

Was he downed at 19? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Your video PROVES that Elliot was not down!!!!! He was not down thru that entire video. Go read Rule 7 it gives numerous examples of when a ball was down and that video doesn't show a single one!

Unless you're claiming he's down by forward progress.

The ball momentarily reaching the 19 is meaningless, because the video doesnt confirm that that is when the play ended; the play might not be over! If Elliot kept his feet after coming off pile and ran outside and got tackled at 21, can he claim that reach as forward progress at 19? Of course not!

If your saying when he stretched out he gave himself up, that cant be reviewed either.
beast
6 years ago

that cant be reviewed either

Originally Posted by: Barfarn 



Again you say it can't happen... after it DID HAPPEN! It's already happened... you are just in denial.

And I've already shown where the rules say it is allowed... and the refs action suggest it's allowed, and very smart people on here say it's allowed. You just can't accept it.
UserPostedImage
beast
6 years ago

that cant be reviewed either

Originally Posted by: Barfarn 



Again you say it can't happen... after it DID HAPPEN! It's already happened... you are just in denial.

And I've already shown where the rules say it is allowed... and the refs action suggest it's allowed, and very smart people on here say it's allowed. You just can't accept it.

As the NFL rule book showed above, your interpretation of what can and can't be challenged is wrong.


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