Barfarn
6 years ago

What does Jackie Robinson have to do with this? (In case you don't know, NOTHING!!!)
I think the vast majority of people are tired of this whole protest.

Originally Posted by: Cheesey 



Not sure where you’re getting this from. But if true; those in intellectual circles call this “tyranny of the majority.”

In Federalist Papers #10 Madison described this as the greatest threat to our democracy. He opined that as long as men have differing opinions and varying amounts of wealth, property and education their nature causes them to form alliances with those most similar to them. And these alliances/factions working in their own self-interest might work against the public interest or infringe on the rights of others.

De Tocqueville in Democracy in America (1835); expanded on this concept.

History tells us that when our Constitution has failed to protect against the majority’s tyranny bad things happened, to wit: men enslaved; Native American genocide; Japanese interned; Minorities prohibited from playing baseball; Minorities not being able to protests their being disparately and invidiously profiled, harassed, humiliated, beaten and/or killed by government sponsored agents [See, it is the same thing 😂].

The thing that separates man from animal is the ability to reason, the ability to act in accordance with a higher moral code that might conflict with our natural instincts to dominate our minorities. Let’s endeavor to be human and not animals.
Porforis
6 years ago

You should have called me. I am licensed in WI as well as IL. Just getting my MN too. 😉 Of course I have no idea if the companies I use are competitive in your area.

Originally Posted by: wpr 



Well, you never return my phonecalls and don't come to your window when I throw pebbles against it even if I AM pumping out some passionate tunes on my boombox so I assumed you weren't interested.

I'm with Progressive right now and they're more or less fine. Unfortunately my wife decided to not pay attention when driving and got a nasty speeding ticket so we'll see if they actually drop it once it drops off our record in a year or so. But, barely paying more now with Progressive than pre-any-tickets with GEICO (which was a fair amount less than Farmers, which I came from) so seems like they aren't screwing me. More than anyone else.
beast
6 years ago
Update: Papa John's is now reporting they're considering ending NFL sponsorship  as "consumers' shift to digital channels" .

In the PFT article  basically said Papa John’s President and Chief Operating Officer Steve Ritchie made "a ridiculous assertion" and a comment that they have not spoken with Jerry Jones which PFT finds "simply not believable."

Indeed, the denial of collusion between the Cowboys and Papa John’s invites speculation that the goal isn’t to cover up discussions about solving the anthem problem but to hide broader shared strategies about solving the Commissioner problem. It’s now clear that Jones wants to make a change, and the comments from Schnatter can be interpreted that he feels the same way — and that these partners in the pizza business are now expanding their association to another kind of business.

PFT wrote:



Also Jerry Jones reportedly owns 120 Papa Johns Stores which is 3.6% of all the Papa John's US stores, if statista.com  numbers are correct. Which would be 4.56% of the NON-franchise stores (again based on statista.com's numbers).

They're in the same businesses, share the same exact opinions, seem to share the same goals and targets and they haven't spoken about business?

Also Papa John's other quarters of this year seem to have been down as well, you know, before the football season started.
UserPostedImage
dyeah_gb
6 years ago

Not sure where you’re getting this from. But if true; those in intellectual circles call this “tyranny of the majority.”

In Federalist Papers #10 Madison described this as the greatest threat to our democracy. He opined that as long as men have differing opinions and varying amounts of wealth, property and education their nature causes them to form alliances with those most similar to them. And these alliances/factions working in their own self-interest might work against the public interest or infringe on the rights of others.

De Tocqueville in Democracy in America (1835); expanded on this concept.

History tells us that when our Constitution has failed to protect against the majority’s tyranny bad things happened, to wit: men enslaved; Native American genocide; Japanese interned; Minorities prohibited from playing baseball; Minorities not being able to protests their being disparately and invidiously profiled, harassed, humiliated, beaten and/or killed by government sponsored agents [See, it is the same thing 😂].

The thing that separates man from animal is the ability to reason, the ability to act in accordance with a higher moral code that might conflict with our natural instincts to dominate our minorities. Let’s endeavor to be human and not animals.

Originally Posted by: Barfarn 




Kudos for the use of the Federalist papers and de Tocqueville but in my opinion the application is completely in the wrong context. The use of concern for the majority in the above relates to the formation of government policy or laws. For example, the value of the electoral college rather than popular vote. The NFL situation is very different because it completely relies on a consumer-based media for its success. The whole point of why the NFL will fail in this endeavor is because the players are using a high profile protest for a low probability circumstance or boogeyman. I believe the representative NFL-viewer's instincts can see through this BS and don't like it.
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool - R. Feynman
Barfarn
6 years ago

Kudos for the use of the Federalist papers and de Tocqueville but in my opinion the application is completely in the wrong context. The use of concern for the majority in the above relates to the formation of government policy or laws. For example, the value of the electoral college rather than popular vote. The NFL situation is very different because it completely relies on a consumer-based media for its success. The whole point of why the NFL will fail in this endeavor is because the players are using a high profile protest for a low probability circumstance or boogeyman. I believe the representative NFL-viewer's instincts can see through this BS and don't like it.

Originally Posted by: dyeah_gb 



You’re reading of Fed #10 is too narrow and you might be thinking of something else discussing the E College. Madison refers to factions as private groups that are acting in their own interest to the detriment of the rights of others and insists that Government must “cure” faction’s “mischiefs” to prevent insurrection and collapse of the Republic. Madison also of speaks elected officials acting as a faction [“Orange Men of factious tempers, of local prejudices, or of sinister designs, may, by intrigue, by corruption, or by other means, first obtain the suffrages, and then betray the interests, of the people”]. I’ll have to double-check to see if he said “Orange” 😂; Madison knew Trump 230 years before his time.

Per Fed #10, the players are not a faction because they’re not imposing their interests to the determinant of anyone else’s civil rights. So the factions to which Madison is referring could only include the G’s police force disparately harming, harassing, profiling, killing minorities and/or the Owners trying to squelch the civil and 1st Amend rights of the players.
dyeah_gb
6 years ago

You’re reading of Fed #10 is too narrow and you might be thinking of something else discussing the E College. Madison refers to factions as private groups that are acting in their own interest to the detriment of the rights of others and insists that Government must “cure” faction’s “mischiefs” to prevent insurrection and collapse of the Republic. Madison also of speaks elected officials acting as a faction [“Orange Men of factious tempers, of local prejudices, or of sinister designs, may, by intrigue, by corruption, or by other means, first obtain the suffrages, and then betray the interests, of the people”]. I’ll have to double-check to see if he said “Orange” 😂; Madison knew Trump 230 years before his time.

Per Fed #10, the players are not a faction because they’re not imposing their interests to the determinant of anyone else’s civil rights. So the factions to which Madison is referring could only include the G’s police force disparately harming, harassing, profiling, killing minorities and/or the Owners trying to squelch the civil and 1st Amend rights of the players.

Originally Posted by: Barfarn 



I disagree with just about everything you have written here.
1. A major point of the argument of "The Tyranny of the Majority" is why a republic government is better than a pure democracy.
2. I do not believe the police are disparately harming minorities. It is sad that the number of cases of minorities unlawfully getting shot by police is greater than zero. This however is not a systematic problem. Claims to the contrary are a terrible generalization on the police who risk their lives to maintain law and order. Further it is my opinion that more minorities will sadly be killed due to the protests: One of many articles on police shortages here .
3. The NFL or owners telling these useful idiots to stand up during the anthem in the stadium before the game is not a violation of their 1st amendment right, unless you can prove the government is involved in this requirement.

Feel free to respond if you like but you and I live in completely different realities.


The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool - R. Feynman
DarkaneRules
6 years ago
Everything is about power and influence. Papa John's with their ultimatum can fuck right off.
Circular Arguments: They are a heck of an annoyance
beast
6 years ago

unless you can prove the government is involved in this requirement

Originally Posted by: dyeah_gb 


If the move were to happen right now, I've think it'd be fairly easy to prove at least the President of the government was involved 😝

And even if they require to stand... opps, all our shoelaces just happen to be untied all at the same time, got to tie them now, safety regulations and all (please note this is tongue and cheek)

Kudos for the use of the Federalist papers and de Tocqueville but in my opinion the application is completely in the wrong context. The use of concern for the majority in the above relates to the formation of government policy or laws. For example, the value of the electoral college rather than popular vote. The NFL situation is very different because it completely relies on a consumer-based media for its success. The whole point of why the NFL will fail in this endeavor is because the players are using a high profile protest for a low probability circumstance or boogeyman. I believe the representative NFL-viewer's instincts can see through this BS and don't like it.

Originally Posted by: dyeah_gb 



Honestly, I don't remember the Federalist papers off the top of my head... but when I read this one, bells went off like I had heard this before... with the concern for the majority being attached to the electoral college, the government officials didn't trust the average vote getting real info, and biased media/rumors effecting their votes... which is pretty true now, with the extremely biased medias (on both sides) being completely one sided and biased with their programing.

Trying to limit all the negative news of their party and over highlighting the negative stuff on the side. It's amazing, how many times, someone will attack the other party, not realizing their party does the same horrible things.
UserPostedImage
beast
6 years ago
We got the setup, all they need is the pitch...And here it is!
Jerry Jones', it's not me that want Goodell out, it's the real American expert  that wants Goodell out.

You gotta give Jerry Jones credit, he knows marketing and how to set the image up.
- Jones got overruled on his best player being suspended
- Jones got overruled on forcing the players to stand
- Jones is being hurt both via NFL ratings AND his Pizza selling
- Jones is (reportedly) trying to block Goodell's new contract
But nope, it's not him that has the problem, it's the "expert"... 😉 right...

Jones is putting in a lot of effort for something, he doesn't want.
UserPostedImage
Barfarn
6 years ago

If the move were to happen right now, I've think it'd be fairly easy to prove at least the President of the government was involved 😝


Honestly, I don't remember the Federalist papers off the top of my head... but when I read this one, bells went off like I had heard this before... with the concern for the majority being attached to the electoral college, the government officials didn't trust the average vote getting real info, and biased media/rumors effecting their votes... which is pretty true now, with the extremely biased medias (on both sides) being completely one sided and biased with their programing.

Trying to limit all the negative news of their party and over highlighting the negative stuff on the side. It's amazing, how many times, someone will attack the other party, not realizing their party does the same horrible things.

Originally Posted by: beast 



Asserting the the Owners are acting with Tyranny [of majority] in suppressing protest is a very different conversation than bringing a 1st Amend claim against them. But, Geragos has subpoenaed, Kraft and Jones, and Texans Owner [This was before their QB went down] to exploit their relationships with Trump to make a Federal claim in addition to the labor claims asserted.

Neither De Tocqueville Chapter 15/DIA nor Fed #10 discuss the electoral college. It was Hamilton in Fed #68 that suggested the E.College could be one tool to protect against a populist president that would rule only in the interest of those that elected to satiate and maintain his base. It was feared that if a person from a populous state or a block of states, like the southern states, could secure 90 to 100% of the vote; they’d win the presidency regardless of what the other States did. So the EC worked 2 ways: (1) the EC could just elect someone else more qualified; and (2) it would work more subtly by working automatically. That is, a person winning a state by a huge margin has that total negated and brought in line to the ratio of the state’s population to the Country’s. He also would not get 20-30-40% of the vote in the states he lost, he’d get zero.

Interestingly, when Madison authored the 1st Amendment regarding the press he thought it’s importance was to rally the minority against a tyrannical ruler. He did not see it as playing a part in informing the people so they could express their consent, because it was the idiotic majority that installed the populist/tyrannical ruler in the first place and they’d be the oppressors.

Madison believed solid government structures like checks and balances provided by triumvirate rule and smaller local and State units of government would protect the rights of the minority. Until he saw what Hamilton was developing as treasury secretary. Madison feared the treasury’s issuing of bonds, forming banks and subsidizing business would cause congress and other powerful leaders to be indebted to Hamilton, thus undermining the safeguards the structures of government afforded. In Fed 10 Madison only saw majority factions as a problem; but this caused him to realize well-funded minority factions could be just as problematic. Dam, this guy was saw the Koch Brothers and the Mercers 220 years ago.

He also came to see that nationally organized parties, whose goal is to spread their influence, would be best served by a free and robust debate afforded by free press. And came to see the 1st Amendment as another vital check and balance.

But, Madison really honed his opinion of the 1st Amendment leading up to the 1800 election. The Federalist Party controlled all 3 branches and they passed the Sedition Act in 1798. It made it a CRIME to state false things about President, Congress or the US; but NOT against VP Jefferson. Madison saw this consolidation of power as ending our fledgling nation. Note: Trump and Bannon are not creative, they’re just copying from these Federalist Party mutts.

Madison in his Virginia Resolutions of 1800 attacked the Sedition Act arguing that free speech is an absolute right and that the Government Congress cannot interfere with the Press. He described free speech as a cornerstone principle of our democracy and absolutely vital to our national security.

What many media outlets are doing today is not done to inform and should not be protected under the 1st Amendment as the Press. Fox News’ founder open admitted that the purpose of his network was not to inform; but to spread a conservative agenda. Same for Breitbart. And there are rumors that Mueller in investigating Hannerty as a co-conspirator in Russia’s intrusion into the highest levels of our government. To be named as a co-conspirator one need only know about the scheme and further it and the furthering part does not have to be an independent crime [EG it’s not a crime to drive a friend home from a bank, but it can be if you know he just robbed it]. I think Hannerty qualifies.

What is so frustrating about those protesting the protests, is that when they speak about disrespecting the Anthem, they prove they don’t understand some of the most fundamental tenants of our democracy. Madison would have been fine with agreeing or disagreeing with the players; but would have found their denigration exceedingly offensive. And behavior that offends Madison’s view of free speech should not be catered to any more than Dodgers should have sent Robinson back to minors because 10K White Dodger fans skipped opening day in ‘47. So Papa Johns take your ketchup covered cardboard and don’t let the door hit ya in the ass.
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dhazer (6h) : Steelers sign Patterson because of new kickoff rule interesting
Zero2Cool (9h) : Former #Packers TE Josiah Deguara is signing a 1-year deal with the Jaguars, per source.
Zero2Cool (10h) : They do not do it for "content sake".
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Zero2Cool (27-Mar) : Haha
Mucky Tundra (27-Mar) : No time for talking! Back to work beast!
beast (27-Mar) : You saw only 4,201 of my mocks? 🥺 I think that means you missed more than half of them 😢
dfosterf (27-Mar) : Does anyone know what Lambeau field improvements got put on hold? My guess would be for the 2025 draft
Zero2Cool (27-Mar) : It's like listen, you made 4,201 mocks, no shit.
Zero2Cool (27-Mar) : Cuz during the draft "I had them mocked there!" as if it's amazing.
Zero2Cool (27-Mar) : They're fun to do once in awhile. It's people who think they are "content" that annoy me.
dfosterf (27-Mar) : Against tbd
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Zero2Cool (27-Mar) : NFL 2024 gonna start Sept 5th isn't it???
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dfosterf (27-Mar) : I'm gonna go do some more mock draft hell instead 🤪
Zero2Cool (27-Mar) : Did we do one of those prediction threads yet for 2024 season?
dfosterf (27-Mar) : In my city, they are playing the nimby game, in order to keep some railroad tracks vs. 2 professional sports teams and a concert venue.
dfosterf (27-Mar) : And/Or a city council, of which I haven't seen a good one in a very long time
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buckeyepackfan (26-Mar) : Packers halt scheduled 80mil upgrade of stadium until lease agreement talks are restarted
Zero2Cool (26-Mar) : City of Green Bay puts Packers' Lambeau Field lease talks on hold
buckeyepackfan (26-Mar) : Packers 1 of 3 teams to vote no on new kickoff rule.
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Zero2Cool (26-Mar) : lol
Cheesey (26-Mar) : 2009? No thanks! One open heart surgery is enough!
dfosterf (26-Mar) : Good for you!
Zero2Cool (26-Mar) : Yes. That's the one.
dfosterf (26-Mar) : Is that "Lady Dugan" per chance?
dfosterf (26-Mar) : Crystal?
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Zero2Cool (26-Mar) : Alan posts. Crystal back in my life. It's 2009 all over again! Lol
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Zero2Cool (25-Mar) : Gutekunst said early stages of Jordan Love contract being discussed.
Zero2Cool (25-Mar) : Shouldn't be penalized cuz official screwed up
Zero2Cool (25-Mar) : Yeah, challenge until you are incorrect twice.
Zero2Cool (25-Mar) : Fining them is the goal, per the people who made the rule anyway.
dfosterf (25-Mar) : Still waiting on the kickoff rule changes. Did hear yesterday that the touchback proposal will now be the 30 yard line, not the 35
dfosterf (25-Mar) : Probably speed of game issues with your proposal
dfosterf (25-Mar) : Hopefully the refs don't get in the habit of throwing flags on this
beast (25-Mar) : I think when it comes to Challenges should get two strikes, so unlimited challenges as long as they keep winning them, but 2 wrong then done
dfosterf (25-Mar) : Still subject to the fines etc
dfosterf (25-Mar) : Yes, I should have been more specific. Also, they are now saying it would be a 15 yard penalty. That makes more sense .
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