TheKanataThrilla
5 years ago
If they are so concerned about police brutality they should go kneel in front of the police station. Join a protest group and march the streets. That's like me showing up to work and kneeling down in a meeting protesting about something that has nothing to do with my job.
DarkaneRules
5 years ago
The thing is about that is we don't get to tell people how or where to protest. Also, to your point, groups have been protesting outside of police stations, as well.
Circular Arguments: They are a heck of an annoyance
TheKanataThrilla
5 years ago

The thing is about that is we don't get to tell people how or where to protest. Also, to your point, groups have been protesting outside of police stations, as well.

Originally Posted by: DarkaneRules 



On a companies dime you do. Also what does kneeling during the national anthem have to do with police brutality anyway. Have any of the NFL players are protested outside of police stations. I don't give a shit about groups I am talking about the players.

Personally I think Kaep is conning people. I think he became a known commodity in the NFL and was getting dumped by the 49ers. He only started kneeling when he started to suck. And for somebody to protest the flag and not even bother to vote. Bahahahahaha.

Zero2Cool
5 years ago

On a companies dime you do. Also what does kneeling during the national anthem have to do with police brutality anyway. Have any of the NFL players are protested outside of police stations. I don't give a shit about groups I am talking about the players.

Personally I think Kaep is conning people. I think he became a known commodity in the NFL and was getting dumped by the 49ers. He only started kneeling when he started to suck. And for somebody to protest the flag and not even bother to vote. Bahahahahaha.

Originally Posted by: TheKanataThrilla 



Here’s what Colin Kaepernick told NFL.com’s Steve Wyche:

“I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses Black people and people of color. To me, this is bigger than football and it would be selfish on my part to look the other way. There are bodies in the street and people getting paid leave and getting away with murder.”


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DarkaneRules
5 years ago

On a companies dime you do. Also what does kneeling during the national anthem have to do with police brutality anyway. Have any of the NFL players are protested outside of police stations. I don't give a shit about groups I am talking about the players.

Personally I think Kaep is conning people. I think he became a known commodity in the NFL and was getting dumped by the 49ers. He only started kneeling when he started to suck. And for somebody to protest the flag and not even bother to vote. Bahahahahaha.

Originally Posted by: TheKanataThrilla 



I can tell you are passionate about this subject too. The league is listening to you, so that should be comforting.
Circular Arguments: They are a heck of an annoyance
Cheesey
5 years ago

Why can't JW's stand for the pledge?

Originally Posted by: gbguy20 


We were taught that it was putting the country ahead of God.
We were not allowed to celebrate our birthdays either. Taking Jesus’ words where he said “remember my death, not my birth” and we were told “if we were not supposed to remember Jesus birth, how could we celebrate our own birth?”
Which is STUPID! Jesus was saying to remember WHY he came here, to die for our sins, not to not remember HIS or our own births.
That’s what JWs do. Twist meanings to fit what they want. And you don’t DARE question them, for fear of being disfelliwshipped (kicked out).

Now, with Kapernick, it’s obvious he wants to make a point. Of course it really doesn’t mean anything. It’s just a “feel good” thing. And as I have stated over and over, almost all the “people of color” killed by police end up that way because of something the person of color did. If they did what the police told them to do, instead of fighting, or running or pulling a weapon, they wouldn’t end up dead.
Most white people do what the cops tell them to do. That’s why not as many whites end up dead.
If you teach your kids to disrespect authority, and to fight the police if you get pulled over, what do you EXPECT the outcome to be???
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Barfarn
5 years ago

The first amendment has NOTHING to do with this issue.

Originally Posted by: KRK 



This is one of 2 issues...and I profoundly disagree [See 2nd half of post]!

That's like me showing up to work and kneeling down in a meeting protesting about something that has nothing to do with my job.

Originally Posted by: TheKanataThrilla 



This is the 2nd issue:

A more precise simile has you sitting at your desk around startin’ time. You’re fired because you refused to stand and cluck like a chicken [Because you’re a beef man]; your boss further blackballs you in your profession. If you’d find this problematic and if there’s intellectual consistency, then what is happening to Kaepernick is also problematic to you.

1. To see the subject issues with clarity American values need to be reviewed and nationalistic biases need to be stowed.

What if a team were bought by a N.Korean entity, can the team force a player to pledge allegiance to Kim Jung-Un before each game? Or are Americans required to pay reverence to England’s anthem for a game in London? If one is intellectually honest and consistent, it’s clear these situations are analogous to the subject outrageous demands NFL owners are placing on their players.

By its very definition, one cannot disrespect our Flag; it’s just a symbol, it’s nothing more than a colorful piece of cloth. Countries in which one could be prosecuted for “disrespecting” a national symbol: N.Korea [Remember Wambier?]; 1933-45 Germany, and a plethora of despotic regimes throughout history. America doesn’t prosecute peaceful protestors for even burning a Flag. A protestor losing his career for his protest, not the substance of the protest, is nothing more than a de facto prosecution.

The Flag can’t be disrespected, but the values it represents can be. Disrespect comes when one is ignorant or openly hostile to the American values our Flag represents. Punishing a protestor asserting that the G’s police are oppressing members of his race is 100% hostile to American values [Even if the protester is incorrect], it threatens our national security, and its ignorant [Unless one supports despotism]. Ironically, one waxing patriotic while demanding everyone have a robotic reverence to symbols literally defiles the American values they’re touting; it’s downright creepy; it’s a most wretched duplicity.

This is how a Patriot voices dissent to a protest. A Patriot counters a peaceful protestor of [EG] lawful abortion by first exercising EMPATHY and RESPECT for THE PROTESTOR’s THINKING that a child is being outright killed, even though that thinking is entirely misplaced. A Patriot imagines if the G decided to KILL her children, she’s thankful similar protestors will sound. A Patriot counters the abortion activist’s speech with freedom of choice speech/demonstration and voices disagreement with scholarship, not ignorant denials that abortion doesn’t exist ellipsed in idiotic feckless dogma. A Patriot dissenting to an abortion activist’s thinking will never demand the activist is prosecuted, muzzled or his ability to earn is disabled…NEVER!

Protest is fundamental to our genesis and our ongoing security. Our Nation’s birth mimics just about every regime’s creation: when King George punished and/or ignored protest, our forefathers settled their issues with guns. And we call them heroes, don’t we? After the revolt, the greatest fear of the Constitution’s drafters was the inherent problem with democracies: tyranny of the majority. The ENTIRE thrust of our Constitution is designed to prevent a majority from using their position to terrorize a minority. One critical feature of this design are protections installed for the interplay of protest and speech. If speech and protest is punished and/or dismissed and minorities believe the G is out to exterminate and/or fiscally enslave them, it is certain that one day they will take up arms. And if foreign powers and/or an ISIS type faction intervene in a big way; present day America will be gone. Imagine lore of this Browner America that emerges will hail the protesters as heroes, President Kaepernick and VP Reid will be on the $1 and $5 bills…“USA…USA…USA!”

2. There’s two employment issues at play.

Does an Employer have the right to:

(#1) curb/quash protected free speech of his employees; and

(#2) make one stand for Anthem, recite Pledge Allegiance to Flag, crow like a rooster at dawn or pledge allegiance to NK’s Kim?

Answer to #1 is YES! However, the dynamic changes drastically if the employer is either de facto or in fact the USG or working in concert with the USG. There are surely enough facts to allege in a suit that the new Anthem policy is the work of the USG acting in concert with the NFL. Heck, Trump and Jerry Jones even said so [While their lawyers gasp]! Also, considered for the purposes of abridgement of speech is that otherwise private companies can be considered governmental units based on the amount of Public assistance they receive. The NFL receives enough Public assistance in the form of funds [directly or thru tax breaks], infrastructure and subsidized facilities to allege in suit that the NFL is a governmental unit; then it’s up to the trier of fact to decide. The actions the NFL has taken against Kaepernick is probably “illegal;” and 100% certainly “illegal” if multiple teams colluded to blackball.

Answer to #2 is also YES; as long as that condition is fundamental to the job and/or was expressly made at the time of hiring and is in the employment manual. But, neither of these conditions apply in Kaepernick’s case. Obviously, Anthem standing is NOT intrinsically part of playing football and the NFL’s employment relationship is defined by a CBA, which means, NFL owners are prohibited from unilaterally changing terms of employment. Clearly, the NFL’s new Anthem standing rule is “illegal.”

Sure, the NFL will argue the Anthem standing rule is simply a clarification of the CBA’s conduct policy, which obviously cannot list every required or prohibited behavior. The viability of this position turns on whether the players could have reasonably expected that Anthem standing was a required behavior.
But, this argument will fail for the following reasons:

Kaepernick first sat August 26 2016 [BTW, A GB Game] and then started kneeling after consulting with an army vet. The next week he was joined by Eric Reid [Ya think the NFL is sending a message?]. Obviously, if it was understood by the league that this was a conduct policy violation, the clarification would have been made known or a grievance would have been filed in the fall of ’16.

The NFL actually said in August 2016 that "Players are encouraged but not required to stand during the playing of the national anthem."

The NBA has had an expressed Anthem standing rule for many years. It is not like this wasn’t thought of before and bargained for by a major professional sports league. A player could assume if the NFL expected Anthem standing to be required that they too would have simply bargained for a rule.

Until 2009, the players were in the lockerroom during the Anthem. It was well known that some players would find their way to the end of the tunnel or otherwise seek out a Flag and stand for the Anthem. Obviously, standing for the Anthem was never required prior to 2009.

In November 2014, 5 Rams players [one was Jared Cook] came out of tunnel in “Hands-up don’t shoot” position in response to Ferguson. The St Louis police union wanted scalps. Goodell refused to discipline the players because it was before the game. This served as notice to the players that protesting before the game is not a conduct policy violation.

Oh BTW, did you know that from 1775 to 1783 Americans were promised property to induce them to join the revolutionary fight against the British? This offer obviously appealed to poorer Americans. After the defeat of the British the parcels were distributed; but states immediately levied massive property taxes on those parcels causing most of the parcels to be reclaimed through eviction. USA…USA…USA!

Know your history…see Howard Zinn!
Zero2Cool
5 years ago

Kaepernick first sat August 26 2016 [BTW, A GB Game] and then started kneeling after consulting with an army vet.

Know your history…see Howard Zinn!

Originally Posted by: Barfarn 



KNOW YOUR FACTS!!

I'm only kidding around, but I remembered hearing the Packers game wasn't the first time he sat during the National Anthem.


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KRK
  • KRK
  • Veteran Member
5 years ago
Barfan,
I love your passion.
First, I guess I am somewhat confused about whether you agree that this is not a first amendment issue. The first Amendment only deals with the GOVERNMENT suppression of free speech. The GOVERNMENT is not a party to these agreements (thank God) and is NOT a guarantor of free speech at the workplace. This issue has everything to do with the Employer/Employee relationship. It gets into the realm of employment law, which I know almost nothing. My guess is that there is some language in the NFLPA collective bargaining agreement that deals with this stuff. (If there are any employment law guys on the blog…please opine.)
Second, I hardly would equate standing for the National Anthem with clucking like a duck. Standing at the National Anthem is within societal norms…at least it has been.
Third, I think many of us have a problem with the NFL’s hypocrisy on dealing with free speech. I believe there is a justifiable rationale for the public’s discontent with the NFL which stems from the inconsistency displayed in the following “free speech/special cause” statements by players. To wit:
[list]
  • In 2012 the NFL had an issue with Tim Tebow kneeling for each game to pray, they also had an issue with Tebow wearing John 3:16 as part of his eye-black to avoid glare, and made him take it off. (It also did not allow an ad by Tebow mom in a subsequent Super Bowl which was Pro-Life)
  • In 2013 the NFL fined Brandon Marshall for wearing green cleats to raise awareness for people with mental health disorders.
    In 2014 Robert Griffin III (RG3) entered a post-game press conference wearing a shirt that said "Know Jesus Know Peace" but was forced to turn it inside out by an NFL uniform inspector before speaking at the podium.
    In 2015 DeAngelo Williams was fined for wearing "Find the Cure" eye black for breast cancer awareness.
    In 2015 William Gay was fined for wearing purple cleats to raise awareness for domestic violence. (Not that the NFL has a domestic violence problem...)
    In 2016 the NFL prevented the Dallas Cowboys from wearing a decal on their helmet in honor of 5 Dallas Police officers killed in the line of duty.
    In 2016 the NFL threatened to fine players who wanted to wear cleats to commemorate the 15th anniversary of 9/11.[/list]
    History has clearly illustrated the NFL has taken a position AGAINST actions by NFL players which demonstrate RESPECT for God, social causes such as mental health, cancer, domestic violence, for cops killed arbitrarily for being cops, or for the Memory of 9/11. I and many others find this position really frigging irritating.
    Now, all of a sudden, the NFL seems to be greatly concerned about free speech and expression. Now, they will allow demonstrations of DISRESPECT for our National Flag and the National Anthem, if it will help mollify a particular Group and its supporters.
    This is what the NFL has shown itself to be, ergo the discontent.
    Finally, does anybody want to remember that Kaepernick was benched for his crappy play before all this started?
    In Luce tua Videmus Lucem KRK
    Cheesey
    5 years ago
    It seems kaepernick is using the kneeling deal to try to blame the NFL for him not his not having a job, when it is actually that his play SUCKS.
    Why would any team owner take on a so so QB, which would come along with his baggage?
    He’s not on a team for BOTH reasons.
    Making players stay off the field if they don’t want to stand should be good enough for the players.
    They are on the job, and if they want to protest, then protest on their own time.
    If that’s not good enough, then go get a real job.
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