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Zero2Cool  
#41 Posted : Wednesday, October 16, 2019 6:42:30 PM(UTC)
beast said: Go to Quoted Post
Nope I didn't misunderstanding the cap, I just understand the fact that looking at a single year of the cap is set up to lie and your spreading the lie as truth.

Nelson being released saved 10.2 million

The second Graham signed (and didn't retire) cost the Packers $11 million in guarantees spread over the first 5 years or the life of the contract, which ever is shorter.

You're falsely arguing that since it's spread out over the 3 years it's not as much, but that's a lie as the fact is it's still $11 million dollars that you can't get back (unless he retires). Which is why there would be a $12.5+ million dead cap hit if we release him which you have totally failed to calculating to your numbers, as that money is already in Graham's pocket and has to hit the salary cap too)

If you only look at a single year then you fail to correct account for entire signing bonus... and the cap is nothing more than a delayed accounting system, the delayed part is way you need to look at more than one year.


Graham's first year of the contract cost the Packers more Nelson's final year... unless you put the single year blinders on... but money and available money can be moved from one year to another year, so there is no need for those blinders unless a team is over the single year limit (which isn't allowed) so the total money amount should be the focus than any single year (unless someone is over the limit).


Looking at a single year of the cap is set up to lie and I'm spreading the lie as truth? I'm a liar?

I said the $10 million cap space freed up by releasing Nelson was used on signing two players, Graham and Wilkerson, which it was. It is not a lie. It is not an argument. Check Spotrac. Check OverTheCap. Each source shows the salary cap hits.

For the 2018 season Jimmy Graham counted ~$6 against the salary cap.


Zach Kruse said:
Cutting Nelson and his bloated cap number next season saved the Packers $10.25 million. They turned around and used all that savings to sign Jimmy Graham ($5.67 million cap hit in 2018) and Muhammad Wilkerson ($4.7 million), two moves that will cost about $10.4 million total on the 2018 cap.

https://packerswire.usat...y-splash-in-free-agency/


I'm a liar?

Rob Demovsky said:
Graham's three-year, $30 million contract ate up $5.66 million of the 2018 cap, while Wilkerson's one-year, $4.7 million deal will count $4,587,500 on the cap.

Those two figures add up to almost exactly what receiver Jordy Nelson would have counted on the cap had the Packers not released him last week on the eve of free agency. They cleared off his base salary and bonuses, which totaled $10.25 million

https://www.espn.com/blo...rson-equals-jordy-nelson


I'm a liar?


Jason Hirschhorn said:
Packers turn Nelson’s contract into cap hits for Graham and Wilkerson

Graham and Wilkerson’s 2018 cap hits come in at approximately $5.7 million and $4.9 million respectively, less than the $12.5 million Nelson would have counted against the salary cap had the Packers not released him last week.

https://www.acmepackingc...raham-muhammad-wilkerson


I'm a liar?

gbguy20  
#42 Posted : Wednesday, October 16, 2019 7:08:09 PM(UTC)
Enough lies already.
Zero2Cool  
#43 Posted : Wednesday, October 16, 2019 7:12:18 PM(UTC)
gbguy20 said: Go to Quoted Post
Enough lies already.


UserPostedImage
Cheesey  
#44 Posted : Wednesday, October 16, 2019 7:48:33 PM(UTC)
Zero2Cool said: Go to Quoted Post
UserPostedImage


Jimminy crismas and Panotcheo!!!LOL

(I know....it’s Jiminy Cricket, and ZERO2COOL!!!)LOL Laugh LOL
beast  
#45 Posted : Wednesday, October 16, 2019 8:00:58 PM(UTC)
Yes when looking at it from a single year perspective the salary cap lies (unless the contracts have no signing bonuses in play).

As the official cap hit for Graham's first year was only $5,916,666 and yet the yearly cash hit was $13,250,000 for the same year.

The difference is the lie that the cap covers up... In reality, Graham cost the Packers $13,250,000 in his first year.... the cap says the first year cost
$5,916,666 in 2018 season
$3,666,666 in 2019 season
$3,666,666 in 2020 season
Which equals $13,250,000 for one single year...

So yes, the single cap number is hiding and lying because the NFL set it up to do that for the set of spreading cap hits over the life of the contract (or first 5 years, whichever is shorter).

Nelson's contact cost was only 10.2 million that year, Graham's first year contract cost was $13.2 (unless you use the system that breaks it up over a number of years and ignore the other years).

Nelson's contact saving didn't actually cover Graham's first year of his contract... much less a second person.
earthquake  
#46 Posted : Wednesday, October 16, 2019 8:37:35 PM(UTC)
The official cap number determines what the team can do in that cap year, with regard to signing or extending other players in a given year. Thus, it's logically and commonly the figure that is used when this sort of discussion comes up. The Packers saved a certain amount of cap space in 2018 by cutting Jordy, cap space that they were able to use to sign other players in 2018.

The number paid to the player in a specific year is often different than the cap figure. While interesting in an academic sense, it is irrelevant to the conversation at hand. The only situation this would matter is if for some reason the Packers couldn't afford to pay the money and had to file for bankruptcy or something. Or if you're very interested in how a player is filing their taxes or something like that.

Neither the cap figure nor the cash paid figure are "lies" or "hiding", they are simply two data points.
beast  
#47 Posted : Wednesday, October 16, 2019 11:24:26 PM(UTC)
earthquake said: Go to Quoted Post
The official cap number determines what the team can do in that cap year, with regard to signing or extending other players in a given year.

Except the official cap is easily manipulated based on if the money is based salary or a signing bonus.

And the official pay determines the official cap... so the official cap is really a secondary figure for understanding anything except are they over or under the limit for this given year. A single year alone, literally does nothing else in the larger picture.


earthquake said: Go to Quoted Post
The number paid to the player in a specific year is often different than the cap figure. While interesting in an academic sense, it is irrelevant to the conversation at hand.
Considering the official pay is what determines the official salary cap it's not irrelevant at all... fans determine things based off the salary cap and can't seem to follow how the NFL handles all the cap numbers, when it's actually quite easy when you just follow the actual money as the actual money determines the cap.

People were arguing with me that we couldn't cut Nick Perry based his cap number and dead money hit.... I argued that based on the actually money you have to cut him... teams use the actual money to set up the cap. While the media and fan's follow the cap as it's somehow more important... when as long as you're under the limit, it's not important at all... it's just accounting for the actual cash money.



earthquake said: Go to Quoted Post
The only situation this would matter is if for some reason the Packers couldn't afford to pay the money and had to file for bankruptcy or something. Or if you're very interested in how a player is filing their taxes or something like that.
Not true at all... first off as an accountant, I might be very interested in how they're filling out their taxes BigGrin

But a much more important role is cost benefit analysis of whether to keep a player or not and how much it's costing to keep a player vs how much will it cost to get rid of a player.


Which is how I correctly predicted getting rid of Perry and keeping Graham.

People claimed we couldn't get rid of Perry because of the dead cap hit, but most of that was a sink cost meaning we were going to be hit with it no matter weather we kept him or got rid of him... and was a non-factor in the decision... just the new money was a factor.

People looked at Graham's cap number and said he had to go at that price, but part of that cap number was already paid in terms of signing bonus and no way they were getting that back.


I forget the actual numbers, but when Peppers cap number got huge in the final years, people demanding that he take at least a 4 million salary cut because that was too much to make in a single year.... but what they didn't realize is that 4 million of that cap number was already paid to him in the very first year and he actually wasn't making it that year, just that it was being accounted for that year.

The actual cash numbers matter a hell lot more to math nerds that actually understand what's going on...

As you can manipulate the hell out of the cap and the NFL cap is set up to allow teams to easily do that.... the cap follows the money, so to understand the cap, you follow the money... and the cap becomes quite easily to understand.
buckeyepackfan  
#48 Posted : Thursday, October 17, 2019 3:37:51 AM(UTC)
Let's simplify this argument.

Jimmy Graham = MISTAKE!
The longer Gutey holds on to him the larger the
MISTAKE becomes.
Zero2Cool  
#49 Posted : Thursday, October 17, 2019 5:07:56 AM(UTC)
beast said: Go to Quoted Post
Nelson's contact cost was only 10.2 million that year, Graham's first year contract cost was $13.2 (unless you use the system that breaks it up over a number of years and ignore the other years).

Nelson's contact saving didn't actually cover Graham's first year of his contract... much less a second person.


For the 2018 season Jimmy Graham counted ~$6 against the salary cap. Multiple sources agree with this statement. Why? Because is it not a lie. It is not an argument. It is a fact. Check Spotrac. Check OverTheCap.

If you don't want to trust me, so be it, but other sources support the statement I made that you cowardly called a lie.

Zach Kruse said:
Cutting Nelson and his bloated cap number next season saved the Packers $10.25 million. They turned around and used all that savings to sign Jimmy Graham ($5.67 million cap hit in 2018) and Muhammad Wilkerson ($4.7 million), two moves that will cost about $10.4 million total on the 2018 cap.

https://packerswire.usat...y-splash-in-free-agency/


Rob Demovsky said:
Graham's three-year, $30 million contract ate up $5.66 million of the 2018 cap, while Wilkerson's one-year, $4.7 million deal will count $4,587,500 on the cap.

Those two figures add up to almost exactly what receiver Jordy Nelson would have counted on the cap had the Packers not released him last week on the eve of free agency. They cleared off his base salary and bonuses, which totaled $10.25 million


https://www.espn.com/blo...rson-equals-jordy-nelson



Jason Hirschhorn said:
Packers turn Nelson’s contract into cap hits for Graham and Wilkerson

Graham and Wilkerson’s 2018 cap hits come in at approximately $5.7 million and $4.9 million respectively, less than the $12.5 million Nelson would have counted against the salary cap had the Packers not released him last week.


https://www.acmepackingc...raham-muhammad-wilkerson



Now does that mean the Packers ONLY paid Graham $5.9 million in 2018? I don't care enough to research that, but what I do know is what counted against the salary cap and that is what my statement was predicated on. It was not a lie. It was not an argument.
wpr  
#50 Posted : Thursday, October 17, 2019 6:24:28 AM(UTC)
buckeyepackfan said: Go to Quoted Post
Let's simplify this argument.

Jimmy Graham = MISTAKE!
The longer Gutey holds on to him the larger the
MISTAKE becomes.


Jimmy will stay on the Packers for 2019. Jimmy is gone for the 2020 season. The only question i how many snaps will he get for the rest of the season.
Cheesey  
#51 Posted : Thursday, October 17, 2019 8:00:44 AM(UTC)
My cap hit is 7.
That’s how many caps I own!LOL

And Zero doesn’t lie!
(Except in bed!)LOL
beast  
#52 Posted : Thursday, October 17, 2019 12:16:36 PM(UTC)
Zero2Cool said: Go to Quoted Post
For the 2018 season Jimmy Graham counted ~$6 against the salary cap. Multiple sources agree with this statement. Why? Because is it not a lie. It is not an argument. It is a fact. Check Spotrac. Check OverTheCap.

If you don't want to trust me, so be it, but other sources support the statement I made that you cowardly called a lie.


Now does that mean the Packers ONLY paid Graham $5.9 million in 2018? I don't care enough to research that, but what I do know is what counted against the salary cap and that is what my statement was predicated on. It was not a lie. It was not an argument.


Yes he only counted that much against the cap... but the suggestion that his 2018 only cost that much is a lie (the accounting system is lying, not you).

It's not hard to research, as you yourself said, check Spotrac... they do all the math for you.

https://www.spotrac.com/...ckers/jimmy-graham-6603/
Check out the very right column...

2018: $13,250,000 ... that's the real cost of having Graham on the team in 2018.


The cap suggest that Graham's costs are
2019: $12,666,666
2020: $11,666,668

The actual costs are
2019: $9,000,000
2020: $8,000,000


It's not really any harder to research, it's easy as checking the single players cap on spotrac... and it allows for actual cost evaluations.
earthquake  
#53 Posted : Thursday, October 17, 2019 5:10:30 PM(UTC)
beast said: Go to Quoted Post
Yes he only counted that much against the cap... but the suggestion that his 2018 only cost that much is a lie (the accounting system is lying, not you).


It's a strawman. Nobody has suggested that.

Kevin made a slightly vague post, and then followed up clarifying that he meant salary cap hit. After which you've made numerous responses lecturing him and anyone who would listen about raw cash values, which no one but you has brought up.

You've clearly got some axe to grind with how the salary cap system is structured. Here's a suggestion: write an angry letter to the NFL, and stop taking it out on people here.
KRK  
#54 Posted : Friday, October 18, 2019 8:24:24 AM(UTC)
To sum it all up...Graham is not worth either 9-12 this year or 8-11 next year, and the sooner we can accrue any benefit from cutting him we should.
beast  
#55 Posted : Friday, October 18, 2019 1:50:14 PM(UTC)
earthquake said: Go to Quoted Post
It's a strawman. Nobody has suggested that.

Kevin made a slightly vague post, and then followed up clarifying that he meant salary cap hit. After which you've made numerous responses lecturing him and anyone who would listen about raw cash values, which no one but you has brought up.

You've clearly got some axe to grind with how the salary cap system is structured. Here's a suggestion: write an angry letter to the NFL, and stop taking it out on people here.


I have no problem with the cap system in how it's used, it's a quite simple and effective system for the needs of the league. But one has to realize it manipulates numbers to average things out for the shake of spreading out signing bonuses.

My axe to grind is the NFL's over-simplification failures, in many of their processes, and the failure of the media and others in picking up on the over-simplifications. From a wide range of things...

From one of ESPN NFC North writers saying there is no way Raji could play DE because Kevin Williams couldn't do it... when in reality Williams was attempted at 4-3 DE... and Raji was attempted as a 3-4 DE... they're both over-simplified to be called DE (and the writer stupidly went with it, I'm guessing cus he doesn't know better) but they're very two different positions as one is on the inside DL and one is edge rusher.

To the probowl stupidly putting all the DE and LB against each other, which of course the edge rushers always win (4-3 DE and 3-4 OLBers)...

To almost all 32 teams (if not all) having a 3-4 or 4-3 depth chart when in reality, all 32 teams run "base defense" less than 20% of the time, and nickel is usually on the field the most.

To having a FB on the all-pro list instead of a 3rd WR / 2nd TE or some sorta flex position (which I think they might of corrected), when teams barely use FBs anymore.

As far as the salary cap, the media fails to recognize that the accounting system is not the cash money... and just run with it, that it's the end all and be all... and falsely say things like the Packers got Graham and another player for releasing Nelson's contract... when in reality, Grahams got more/cost more in 2018 than Nelson did... so Graham actually took more than Nelson's contract. That's a misrepresentation, and lots of innocent people are believing this misrepresentation...

Again, the salary cap is a GREAT system for what the NFL is using it for! But the media needs to realize that they're misrepresenting it as the deciding factor... as cash is the deciding factor in decisions, not the accounting of said cash. Yes they have to be under a certain amount... but as they did with Favre's contract multiple times under Sherman, any team can fairly easily manipulate what year the cap space is in (within 5 years time frame).

So I got no problem with the system, just the misrepresentation of the media reporting on it.

And also I think it's fair to say that Nelson might of done more for the Packers in 2018 than either Graham or Cobb actually did...

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