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  • wpr
  • Preferred Member
Good to think about this weekend.
One of the benefits of fixing all the old posts is I can bump good ones like this.
Nice dig-up.

The one 4th of july post that I still remember was Vikesrule's about Vietnam... Don't know if he'd like to have it dug up again, since he doesn't frequent this site a whole lot anymore, but that one made a real, sincere impact.
  • wpr
  • Preferred Member
I was intentionally out of the States on Independence day. I wanted to get a new perspective on it. (Ok I was only in Canada but the area I was in had people from a dozen countries or more.)

Turns out that I got to Canada on July 1 which is Canada Day. Their birthday. Britain combined 3 colonies into one in 1867 but still governed them. It took until 1982 before they were completely independent. Rather interesting. We celebrate the birth of our nation and our independence from England via war. They celebrate a bureaucratic paper shuffling transaction and are just as proud.

They had fireworks on both days but since it is a tourist area I think it was more of a marketing idea than a tip of the cap to the ol US of A.

Individually I think lot of Canadians do appreciate what the United States has done over the past 200 plus years. They know that they have benefited by living so close to Big Brother without having to pay very much for it. In that respect freedom is free for them.
I like the original article/post - naturally I would hahahaha.

Those numbers for deaths from other causes are just staggering. I remember 5 or 6 years ago when I was posting in JSOnline, I would post some stats like that to rub it in to the anti-war types - using a bunch of math to demonstrate that an American between age 18 and 24 was less likely to die in Iraq than here at home, and you consider the murder rate in the big cities, and it wasn't even close.

On Memorial Day, though, that is not the point. A lot of people (I have to get used to saying people, not just guys hahaha) did die there, and whether the detractors like to admit it or not, the sacrifices they made were and are for our FREEDOM, not to mention our Comfort, Prosperity, and Security. The detractors also like to use the phrase "die for nothing". FREEDOM and the other three items are NOT nothing. You could make a far better argument that the 423,000 who died those for years were the ones who "died for nothing" - and I assume THAT death rate has continued in the five years since the post.

It still amazes me to read what was risked and lost for our freedom. First post is still a goodie.
The Iraq/Afghan war isn't about freedom, it is about money, moreover, a fleecing of the average Joe taxpayer to the bank accounts of the shareholders of the manufactuers of arms to the War Machine. Nobody questions the sacrifices made by our soldiers. Everybody should be questioning the war monger politicians who keep sending them to battle, but don't send their own children.
Originally Posted by: DakotaT 

The Iraq/Afghan war isn't about freedom, it is about money, moreover, a fleecing of the average Joe taxpayer to the bank accounts of the shareholders of the manufactuers of arms to the War Machine. Nobody questions the sacrifices made by our soldiers. Everybody should be questioning the war monger politicians who keep sending them to battle, but don't send their own children.

The 60's called. They want the whining back.
It's that time of year once again.

Not only do we have MAGNIFICENCE of Life unparalleled in the history of the world, but WE - America - are the Force for Good that makes similar magnificence in terms of FREEDOM and STANDARD OF LIVING possible for basically the whole world.

HALLELUJAH! THANK YOU to all of our troops past and present who have made it happen.

Now I'm off to join a lot of them at Fort Hood for the Fireworks.
Originally Posted by: Formo 

I never take my freedoms for granted. Never.

Nor should any of us.
  • KRK
  • Veteran Member
Z, thanks for reactivating this thread, us new-timers never saw the original which is great. Would it be possible to "quote" or copy the original so that people dont have go back to read it? Also, I am posting some additional information about sacrifices made by the founders:

When reading the Declaration of Independence, it is easy to focus only on the sweeping language of the second paragraph and skip over the names and mutual pledge of the signers at its conclusion.

Though the principles enunciated in its opening paragraphs, such as the self-evident truth that all men are created equal, provide the moral and philosophical foundation on which the American regime rests, it is important to acknowledge that declaring principles alone secures nothing.

Principles need to be enforced by individuals who have the habits of character necessary to fight for them, and perhaps even die for them, if need be. In a time where talk of rights dominates our political discourse, a focus on duties is indispensable in order to teach citizens the responsibilities they owe toward each other and their posterity.

The signers’ mutual pledge to themselves to sacrifice their lives, fortunes, and sacred honor for the cause of independence shows that these men took seriously their duties to the people of the new nation.

A look at the historical record will show this to be beyond dispute.

Of the 56 men who signed the declaration, 12 fought in battles as members of state militias, five were captured and imprisoned during the Revolutionary War, 17 lost property as a result of British raids, and five lost their fortunes in helping fund the Continental Army and state militias battle the redcoats.

Below we will explore the sacrifices the signers made on behalf of the American cause.

Thomas Heyward Jr., Edward Rutledge, and Arthur Middleton

Thomas Heyward Jr. of South Carolina was a signer of both the declaration and the Articles of Confederation. Heyward drew the ire of the British when, as a circuit court judge, he presided over the trial of several loyalists who were found guilty of treason. The prisoners were summarily executed in full view of British troops. In 1779, he joined the South Carolina militia as a captain of artillery.

Heyward’s compatriot in the South Carolina delegation, Edward Rutledge, also served in the state militia. At age 26, Rutledge was the youngest signer of the Declaration of Independence. After returning home from attending the Second Continental Congress in 1777, he joined the militia as captain of an artillery battalion.

Both Heyward and Rutledge aided their country in the battle at Port Royal Island, where they helped Gen. Moultrie defeat British Maj. William Gardiner and his troops.

Arthur Middleton, the last of the South Carolina delegation who served in the militia, took up arms against the British during the siege of Charleston in 1780. His fellow signers, Heyward and Rutledge, fought in that battle as well.

Upon the surrender of Charleston, all three men were captured by the British and were sent to a prison in St. Augustine, Florida, which was reserved for people the British thought were particularly dangerous. They were held there for almost a year before being released. On route to Philadelphia for a prisoner exchange in July 1781, Heyward almost drowned. He survived his fall overboard by clinging to the ship’s rudder until he could be rescued.
During the British occupation of Charleston, Commandant Nisbet Balfour ordered the seizure of many estates in Charleston, including those owned by Heyward and Middleton.

During his imprisonment, Heyward’s wife died at home, and his estate and property were heavily damaged. Rutledge’s estate was left intact, but his family had to sell many of their belongings in order to make the trip to Philadelphia to reunite with him after his release. Middleton’s estate was left relatively untouched, but his collection of rare paintings was destroyed during the British occupation of his home.

Thomas Nelson Jr.
Thomas Nelson Jr. of the Commonwealth of Virginia was appointed to the position of brigadier general and commander-in-chief of the Virginia militia by Gov. Patrick Henry in August 1777. At that time it was thought that the British would be making a full scale invasion of the state. Nelson was able to muster only a few hundred men to defend Virginia, but the British instead decided to attack Philadelphia.
Nelson inherited a vast family fortune, much of which he used to support the American effort. He personally paid for the return journey home of 70 troops he had led to meet the British in Philadelphia during the summer of 1778. In the spring of 1780, Nelson signed his name to a loan for $2 million that was needed to purchase provisions for the French fleet that was coming to America’s aid in the war.
As then-governor of Virginia, during the Battle of Yorktown he ordered American troops to fire upon his mansion, which had been commandeered by Gen. Cornwallis and his men.

Richard Stockton
A member of the New Jersey delegation, Richard Stockton, had his estate commandeered by the British for use as a headquarters. As they left, British troops burned all his personal effects—including his library, private papers, furniture, and clothes.
Though Stockton was in hiding at the time, he ultimately did not escape capture; a traitor led the British to his position in November 1776. He was held captive in Amboy, New Jersey, and was then sent to New York City where he was imprisoned in a jail reserved for common criminals. Incensed by his treatment, Congress worked with British Gen. William Howe to obtain his release.

George Walton
Because of his small build and stature, George Walton was thought to be the youngest of the signers of the declaration (he was actually in his mid-30s). He hailed from Georgia and served as colonel in the first regiment of the state militia in 1778. During the siege of Savannah, a cannonball broke Walton’s leg, which led to his being captured. He was held captive for nine months and was released in the early fall of 1779 in a prisoner exchange for a British navy captain.
At the same time Walton was held prisoner, his wife Dorothy was captured by the British. She was imprisoned on an island in the West Indies and was eventually freed after a prisoner exchange. During the Waltons’ confinement, the British ransacked their home.

George Clymer
British troops destroyed the home of George Clymer of Pennsylvania in September 1777 when they captured Philadelphia. Though his home was outside of the city, it was right in the middle of the path of the British march. American loyalists pointed out to the British homes belonging to patriots, which of course included Clymer’s estate.
Clymer also contributed to the war monetarily. He converted his entire fortune into continental currency, a risky move considering the likelihood that the currency would be rendered worthless. He also told wealthy friends to contribute to the American cause.

Robert Morris
A delegate from Pennsylvania, Robert Morris helped insure Washington’s victory at Yorktown by using his own credit to obtain the supplies necessary to defeat the British. He spent more than $1 million (not adjusted for inflation) of his own money to accomplish this.
While serving as superintendent of finance of the United States, Morris regularly used his own financial resources to obtain much needed supplies. Using his own funds, for example, he purchased one thousand barrels of flour for Washington’s men in late spring of 1778.

Lewis Morris
Lewis Morris of New York served as a major general in the state militia. Morris devoted himself to recruiting men to serve in the militia and to help keep supplies up, which was a constant problem. For almost the entire length of the war, the British occupied his home, Morrisania, and used it as their headquarters. This forced Morris to live off of his close friends and associates until the war ended in 1783.

John Hancock
John Hancock of Massachusetts, the man with the largest signature on the declaration, served in the militia as major general in 1778. Hancock was put in command of approximately 6,000 men during the Rhode Island campaign. That campaign was ultimately unsuccessful because the French failed to carry out their end of the bargain.

Caesar Rodney
Caesar Rodney served in the Delaware militia as well, attaining the rank of brigadier general. Rodney famously road on horseback straight from Dover to Philadelphia to cast his vote in favor of declaring independence (the Delaware delegation was split). He was with his men in the field during the brutal winter of 1776, helped quash an uprising in Delaware (there were a large number of loyalists within the state), and helped in George Washington’s effort to defend Philadelphia from being taken by the British.

Carter Braxton
Carter Braxton of the Virginia delegation accumulated massive personal debts helping the American effort in the war. He loaned 10,000 pounds sterling to Congress, which was never repaid. He also spent much of his wealth outfitting American ships so that they could carry more cargo. Due to the British capturing some of his vessels and others being lost out on the high seas, he suffered great financial calamity. These accumulated losses left him bankrupt by war’s end.

Oliver Wolcott
A delegate from Connecticut, Oliver Wolcott served as captain and then major general in the state militia. In 1776, he was appointed to lead 14 regiments in defense of New York City. He also commanded thousands of men in the Battle of Saratoga. Wolcott worked tirelessly to recruit for the Connecticut militia, which, like the army in general, was sorely lacking in numbers within its ranks.

William Whipple
William Whipple of New Hampshire served as brigadier general in the state militia. He fought against Gen. Burgoyne at the battles of Stillwater and Saratoga (commonly pointed to as the turning point for Americans in the war) in 1777. The following year, Whipple participated in the retaking of Rhode Island.

Thomas McKean
Thomas McKean of Delaware served as colonel in the Delaware state militia. Once McKean was appointed to the office of President of Delaware in 1777, he was targeted by the British (the British captured John McKinley, the previous president). He had to move his family on five occasions because of raids by both the British and local Indian tribes.

Francis Lewis
Francis Lewis of New York signed the declaration on August 2, 1776. Although he was present when independence was declared a month earlier, the New York delegation did not get permission from the state’s legislature to sign the document. A few months after affixing his signature on the declaration, British troops destroyed the Long Island estate of Lewis. They took Lewis’ wife and put her in prison where she was tortured on a regular basis. Under the direction of George Washington, she was finally returned in a prisoner exchange two years later.

Benjamin Franklin
Known as the sage of Philadelphia, Benjamin Franklin of Pennsylvania was the oldest of the signers of the declaration. Prior to setting sail for France in late 1776 to ask the French for assistance in the war, Franklin gave his entire fortune to Congress to help fund the war.

John Hart
Hessian mercenaries plundered signer John Hart’s 400-acre farm outside of Hopewell, New Jersey. Prior to his farm being captured, Hart was forced to leave his family because of advancing British troops. During his absence, his wife died, and his children were sent to live with neighbors.

William Ellery
The estate of William Ellery of Delaware was burned down during the British occupation of Newport, Rhode Island. Ellery served in the Second Continental Congress until the British left Newport, which they held for three years. He returned home in order to salvage what was left of his property.

Joseph Hewes
With his fortunes built on trade, Joseph Hewes of North Carolina was a vigorous proponent of the decision of the First Continental Congress to cut off all imports and exports with the British. This of course had the effect of drying up his wealth. Interestingly, Hewes also renounced his Quaker religion in order to support the war.

James Smith
A delegate from Pennsylvania, James Smith served in the Pennsylvania militia as captain, colonel, and then as brigadier general. He was one of the first to raise men for the possibility of defending his home state, a duty he took up beginning as early as 1774.

Benjamin Harrison
Benjamin Harrison of Virginia, whose son and grandson both served as U.S. presidents, complained in a letter to Gov. William Livingston of New Jersey that his debts had accumulated substantially because of the “ravages” and “plunderings” of the British.

William Floyd
While William Floyd of New York served as a delegate in the Second Continental Congress, the British sacked his estate, forcing his family to flee. Though they made it safely to Connecticut, his family was left without a home for the duration of the war.

William Hooper
William Hooper of North Carolina outlasted British raiders who were looking to capture him and his family. In 1782, he and his family fled Wilmington after it fell to the British. Though much of his property was destroyed, he and his family were reunited at the conclusion of the war.

Lyman Hall
The British destroyed the home and plantation of Lyman Hall of Georgia. Luckily, his family escaped before the British arrived and moved up North to be with him.
So many people take our freedoms for granted. Or they think they DESERVE it.
So many thousands upon thousands gave their very lives, or parts of their bodies so that we can have the ability to enjoy life.
I was looking online, and found out that my great great grandfather fought for the Union in the civil war. I knew that my wife’s great great grandfather had fought in the civil war, but didn’t know about my own.
I have also had so many relatives that fought in WW2, Korea and Vietnam.
When I see a veteran, I always thank them for their service. It’s a small thing, but you would be surprised at how many men have told me that no one ever thanked them. I have had grown men cry, and have had wives whisper to me how much they appreciated what I told their husbands, as no one ever did that.
If you see a veteran, take the few seconds it takes to thank them.
Freedom may be free for us, but someone paid the price FOR us!
  • wpr
  • Preferred Member
Freedom certainly isn't free. Throughout the generations, many people have picked up the tab. I have witnessed first hand how my son's PTSD flairs up at different times especially around July 4th. A few nights ago he was at a farewell party for a neighbor. They were shooting off fireworks when they noticed he was clinching his hands together and tensing up. Someone suggested he would feel better if he went home. He left the party early.
He and I try to meet up and go to Green Bay once a year. We typically meet in Milwaukee. In order to eliminate some of the drive I suggested we think about going on one of the buses. he told me he can't be confined with a lot of loud people for that long of a trip.
My wife and I don't like fireworks any more.
Freedom is not just a political issue or about military history or protected religious rights. In the end, freedom is about not living in fear that your door is not in constant danger of being crashed in so you/your family can be persecuted for their heritage or so some strong man can take what took years to accumulate.

Freedom is not about pulling down "Military" or other statues erected to honor men/women that distinguished themselves in their lives so a racial or civil grievance can gain ground by being attached with it. John Wayne and Matthew Fontaine Maury don't deserve to be disrespected for their success in life. Should Douglas MacArthur or Chester Nimitz be held to blame for the internment camps that held Japanese Americans during WWII. Should George Washington or Thomas Jefferson be held to blame because they lived in a time when slavery was a common and legal practice.

Freedom is not about disrespecting my nations international symbol, the flag, to draw attention to a social or political issue. Freedom is not about turning what should be a collective protest against police brutality into an opportunity to spit on the same country that protects your right to "peacefully" protest those causes.

Freedom that is unearned is never fully appreciated. Put a person in jail and it does not take long for that person to truly feel their loss of freedom. Millions celebrated their liberation from Germany/Japan as Allied forces freed their lands during WWII. Those that experience the loss of freedom never take it for granted when/if they get it back. They understand better than most that freedom means not living in fear, or danger as you peruse your interest

Freedom is not about breaking laws enacted for the safety and protection of all. It is not about disrespecting/challenging our authorized appointed authorities who enforce those laws. Freedom at it's best is speaking at a city/county Council Meeting or casting a ballot on election day. Freedom is that Naval ship that leaves the dock in Norfolk for a 9 month deployment in the Mediterranean or the youth that reports for Marine Corp. training at Parris Island. Freedom is also about those who care for our national historic battlefields. From Yorktown to Gettysburg to The Alamo, we honor the history, not the politics of the governments involved.

Freedom is not something you buy at Wall Mart or get for your birthday, it was founded in America by men who understood it's value and the cost involved to establish it. Freedom is not stationary, it evolves with time. It is a never ending journey to deal with injustice and change bad policies. Freedom does not yield to bullies that would pervert law or power to enrich their own coffers.

Freedom is a 5 year old girl dancing at her first recital. Freedom is a 6 year old boy in his first Tee Ball game. Freedom is a 17 year old boy picking up his 1st Prom date. Freedom is marching in a parade with a band or military unit. Freedom is taking your kids fishing for the first time. Freedom is arriving at the vacation motel following 8 hours on the road with the wife and kids. Freedom is peacefully falling asleep in your own bed without fear that Russia or China is would be foolish enough to attack us. Freedom is a young married couple watching their newborn baby asleep in it's crib.
WPR, please thank your son for me for his service.
My father in law (WW2 vet) had the same problem with fireworks.
You never know what sights, sounds or smells will set off memories, good or bad.
  • wpr
  • Preferred Member
I've always loved Norman Rockwell's work. This may be his best.

Some facts you might have missed.

July 2nd is actually when we declared our independence.

July 4th is when we explained the what.

August 2nd is when it was actually signed.

There's a hand-print on the back.

We actually don't have the original that Jefferson, Franklin and others wrote. There were 200 Dunlap broadside copies made and only 26 have been recovered.
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