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play2win  
#41 Posted : Monday, November 11, 2013 1:57:56 PM(UTC)
steveishere said: Go to Quoted Post
I don't think it's Hayward that's the issue. I don't think the CBs have really been too bad at all even in the last couple games. It's mostly been safeties. The biggest difference I've seen is McCown and Foles are pretty much on hot streaks right now while the QBs we played before them were Flacco and Weeden who have both been having awful seasons. Hayward was in the secondary against Minnesota and they only gave up 145 yards.


Yeah, but Hayward has not looked anything like he did last season. I don't think anyone could have predicted that he'd hit the sophomore slump like this. He looks WAY off.
DoddPower  
#42 Posted : Monday, November 11, 2013 2:04:01 PM(UTC)
I think firing Capers now would be a bit of a knee-jerk reaction, which isn't really McCarthy's style. However, it could show that McCarthy has some balls and isn't going to put up with continued average play. I think sometimes McCarthy is too soft. It's great to be patient and loyal, but in the NFL, it can be advantageous to hold people accountable for their mistakes, even if it seems a bit cold. It can send a message that it won't be tolerated, which perhaps can make the coach's and players work harder, if at all possible.

Of course, the above may not work out, but I'm not opposed to a different approach. Caper's defenses haven't been bad overall, but they certainly have been mostly average, which shouldn't be the standard of "good enough." There are many defensive coordinators that could get more out of the talent the Packers defense has, imo. I wouldn't have been disappointed if Capers wasn't brought back this season, as was being discussed. Ted Thompson is pretty good at getting rid of players a year early than a year too late, but the same can't be said of the coaching staff, whether's that's Thompson or McCarthy's "fault."
steveishere  
#43 Posted : Monday, November 11, 2013 2:05:36 PM(UTC)
play2win said: Go to Quoted Post
Yeah, but Hayward has not looked anything like he did last season. I don't think anyone could have predicted that he'd hit the sophomore slump like this. He looks WAY off.


I don't get this. He hasn't looked as good as last year but he hasn't been out there getting beat left and right or anything. He's given up 3 catches in the Chicago game and 1 each in the other 2 (only 1 catch over 10 yards). House or Tramon have been beaten much worse in those games than Hayward. He's rusty but I don't see how he can be WAY off unless he's giving up some big catches.
DoddPower  
#44 Posted : Monday, November 11, 2013 2:07:59 PM(UTC)
steveishere said: Go to Quoted Post
I don't get this. He hasn't looked as good as last year but he hasn't been out there getting beat left and right or anything. He's given up 3 catches in the Chicago game and 1 each in the other 2 (only 1 catch over 10 yards). House or Tramon have been beaten much worse in those games than Hayward. He's rusty but I don't see how he can be WAY off unless he's giving up some big catches.


Well, he certainly hasn't been tackling well, and just doesn't look physical at all out there. I'm OK with a DB not being a very good tackler, but they better be very good in coverage if that's the case.
nerdmann  
#45 Posted : Monday, November 11, 2013 2:20:40 PM(UTC)
texaspackerbacker said: Go to Quoted Post
That six would be who? Raji, Datone Jones, Perry, Hawk, Matthews, and who am I missing, that's only five. Significantly, none of those five are DBs - the portion of the D that has been less bad. The front seven has stunk the worst - Raji worst of all.

My question - when deciding to blame Capers or not, is who was the prime decision maker on those draft picks? Arguably NONE of them other than Matthews was a decent pick. It's probably too soon to judge Datone as bad, maybe the same with Perry, and Hawk finally after 6 or 7 years of mediocrity is playing decent this season - still not up to the level of where he was drafted. And Raji is a big worthless lump - a disappointment if he had been drafted in the 4th round much less the 1st.

I'm convinced that the lack of interceptions and fumble recoveries this season is luck and circumstance, not anything Capers can be blamed for. The same is true of a lot of the big plays against us like that first TD yesterday. On that play, we had double coverage, but no pass rush without blitzing - because of poor quality in the front seven - what are you gonna do? You can only compensate for so much with schemes.



The talent is there.
DoddPower  
#46 Posted : Monday, November 11, 2013 2:29:37 PM(UTC)
play2win said: Go to Quoted Post
3 years running at that. I'm kind of with Dakota. I can't see McCarthy doing it, but would not mind seeing it happen. And, as he said, that 2 man DL sh!t is for the birds… ugh. I don't ever want to see it again. I remember thinking that yesterday when I saw it, saying to myself, "why is there just Raji and Pick on the line?" Gasket/mind blown...


I don't see why people have such a problem with the 2-4-5. That's just a basic nickle package, and is the a staple of a 3-4 defense. What else do you want? Remove Perry/Mathews from the field for another defensive linemen? Take a DB out and put in another defensive linemen? Both of those ideas have big drawbacks. If it's an issue with the timing of a nickle package call, that's one thing, but disliking a nickle defense overall just seems silly to me. It's basically the standard in the NFL these days, and might as well be the "base" package for most teams in most games. With Perry or Neal on the field, it's basically just like having three defensive linemen on the field anyway, because the distinction between LB and DL is just a matter of labeling for them. Defensive end or linebacker, it really doesn't make much difference.
wpr  
#47 Posted : Monday, November 11, 2013 2:39:36 PM(UTC)
DoddPower said: Go to Quoted Post
I don't see why people have such a problem with the 2-4-5. That's just a basic nickle package, and is the a staple of a 3-4 defense. What else do you want? Remove Perry/Mathews from the field for another defensive linemen? Take a DB out and put in another defensive linemen? Both of those ideas have big drawbacks. If it's an issue with the timing of a nickle package call, that's one thing, but disliking a nickle defense overall just seems silly to me. It's basically the standard in the NFL these days, and might as well be the "base" package for most teams in most games. With Perry or Neal on the field, it's basically just like having three defensive linemen on the field anyway, because the distinction between LB and DL is just a matter of labeling for them. Defensive end or linebacker, it really doesn't make much difference.


The problem has been and still is they do not get a consistent pass rush with only 3 down line men and another maybe two linebackers coming as well. the QB can sit there and wait for a receiver to come open. (Even the best DBs can't cover forever.) The QB if he feels some pressure can rollout and buy time waiting for the receiver to get free.

The linebackers are typically smaller and the linemen can handle them when they do come. Give me 4 fattys that collapse the pocket right back into the QB's lap and give him no time to look to his 2nd or 3rd option every single day of the week and ten times on Sunday and I will win the game more often than not.

edit-
BTW, if the DL is handing pushing the OL back I guarantee you there will be no running game up the middle either. The RB will have to try and take it wide. Then it is the LB and DB's job to shut it down. 7 professional football players SHOULD be able to tackle 1 RB for minimal gain more times than not.
DoddPower  
#48 Posted : Monday, November 11, 2013 2:48:32 PM(UTC)
wpr said: Go to Quoted Post
The problem has been and still is they do not get a consistent pass rush with only 3 down line men and another maybe two linebackers coming as well. the QB can sit there and wait for a receiver to come open. (Even the best DBs can't cover forever.) The QB if he feels some pressure can rollout and buy time waiting for the receiver to get free.

The linebackers are typically smaller and the linemen can handle them when they do come. Give me 4 fattys that collapse the pocket right back into the QB's lap and give him no time to look to his 2nd or 3rd option every single day of the week and ten times on Sunday and I will win the game more often than not.

edit-
BTW, if the DL is handing pushing the OL back I guarantee you there will be no running game up the middle either. The RB will have to try and take it wide. Then it is the LB and DB's job to shut it down. 7 professional football players SHOULD be able to tackle 1 RB for minimal gain more times than not.


That just sounds like a complaint about personnel or winning match ups. 3-4 outside linebackers should be able to win against offensive tackles. Obviously they are not going to be as big, and I wouldn't want them to be. They are, however (or should be), more athletic, quicker, etc. Perry and Neal aren't really "smaller" than most defensive ends in a 4-3 system, anyway, and Mathews has shown that his size isn't a limitation when he's healthy.

Again, I don't think it has anything to do with the nickle defense, it's just a matter of the personnel winning their match ups. When mostly healthy, Mathews, Daniels, Raji, and Perry is a nice nickle pass rushing defense (or some similar combination of those players). At this point, it has as much to do with health as anything else. I think this team can rush the passer when healthy, but it's going to be very difficult when basically the two top pass rushers are out of the game or only playing at ~70%.
wpr  
#49 Posted : Monday, November 11, 2013 2:54:02 PM(UTC)
DoddPower said: Go to Quoted Post
That just sounds like a complaint about personnel or winning match ups. 3-4 outside linebackers should be able to win against offensive tackles. Obviously they are not going to be as big, and I wouldn't want them to be. They are, however (or should be), more athletic, quicker, etc. Perry and Neal aren't really "smaller" than most defensive ends in a 4-3 system, anyway, and Mathews has shown that his size isn't a limitation when he's healthy.

Again, I don't think it has anything to do with the nickle defense, it's just a matter of the personnel winning their match ups. When mostly healthy, Mathews, Daniels, Raji, and Perry is a nice nickle pass rushing defense (or some similar combination of those players). At this point, it has as much to do with health as anything else. I think this team can rush the passer when healthy, but it's going to be very difficult when basically the two top pass rushers are out of the game or only playing at ~70%.


If it was something that was based on the last 3-4 even 5 weeks I would say you are correct but Dom has run the 2-4-5 for 4 years and I have not seen much success from it in any season outside an occasional play or 2 in a game. Have you seen it as a consistently successful formation down after down week in and week out year after year after year?

again edit- If there are "personnel issues" whose fault is that? Ted first, Mike 2nd and DC Capers third in line. If he doesn't have the proper personnel then don't run that formation. It s not going to work is it?
steveishere  
#50 Posted : Monday, November 11, 2013 3:02:49 PM(UTC)
wpr said: Go to Quoted Post
If it was something that was based on the last 3-4 even 5 weeks I would say you are correct but Dom has run the 2-4-5 for 4 years and I have not seen much success from it in any season outside an occasional play or 2 in a game. Have you seen it as a consistently successful formation down after down week in and week out year after year after year?

again edit- If there are "personnel issues" whose fault is that? Ted first, Mike 2nd and DC Capers third in line. If he doesn't have the proper personnel then don't run that formation. It s not going to work is it?


When healthy I think Matthews/Perry are good enough for a consistent pass rush from the edges. The problem we've had is a lack of DT type rushers. Our pass rush was beast when Jenkins was here. Raji is too inconsistent. He'll have a game here or there where he does what Jenkins did but he disappears too much.

I think it's time to let Daniels be a full time player. He's supposedly "undersized" but it has not to this point limited him in the slightest. He's been by far IMO the best most consistent player in the front 7 this year. Hopefully the glimpse from Jones is a sign of things. Jolly and Pickett are solid players but they both offer 0 pass rush and with Raji not stepping up they need to try something else. I think Daniels has earned a full time role.
play2win  
#51 Posted : Monday, November 11, 2013 3:03:47 PM(UTC)
DoddPower said: Go to Quoted Post
I don't see why people have such a problem with the 2-4-5. That's just a basic nickle package, and is the a staple of a 3-4 defense. What else do you want? Remove Perry/Mathews from the field for another defensive linemen? Take a DB out and put in another defensive linemen? Both of those ideas have big drawbacks. If it's an issue with the timing of a nickle package call, that's one thing, but disliking a nickle defense overall just seems silly to me. It's basically the standard in the NFL these days, and might as well be the "base" package for most teams in most games. With Perry or Neal on the field, it's basically just like having three defensive linemen on the field anyway, because the distinction between LB and DL is just a matter of labeling for them. Defensive end or linebacker, it really doesn't make much difference.


We are down a number of LBs due to injury. What else do I want? How about flexing to a 4-3? We have the DL healthy enough for this. Makes perfect sense. I don't see why Dom doesn't go to this more often. Where is Josh Boyd?

From what I've seen, GB in a 2-4-5 is and has been, for years, very, very ineffective. That's why I don't want to see it anymore. We need pass rush. Our secondary is getting killed without getting more pressure on a consistent basis. Raji, Picket, Jolly and Wilson have combined to make 1 sack on the season. One. Jolly. Datone has 3. Daniels 4.5. Through 9 games.

Only 2 INTs by our secondary (Shields and House with one each). As a team, our defense is dead last in the NFL in INTs with 3. To me, that points to a lack of pressure, and all I see when we go to a 2-4-5 is a lack of pressure on the opposing QB.
PackFanWithTwins  
#52 Posted : Monday, November 11, 2013 3:31:07 PM(UTC)
What makes me scratch my head. When we don't get pressure and the QB has time, it never fails that a WR/TE will come open across the middle. 8-15 yards deep, behind the LBers and in front of our Safeties. Yet, when Rodgers is in the pocket with time, we don't seem to have the same, we seem to always have our receivers at the sidelines.

The question is, is that a difference in offensive strategy in scramble drills, or is it designed for that to be against our defense because that is one of the weak spots.

There are two traditional weak spots in our passing defense, the 10-15 yard area across the board both on edges and middle. But how do we stop it? The best way is to get pressure so the routes don't have to develop into that area. As far as coverage what can we do?

Drop LBers deeper in the middle, seems all that would do is open up the short crossing routes.

Personally, I think this also goes back to not having Nick Collins deep. He had the speed to cover sideline to sideline and could be left deep by himself. Now we have to run more 2 deep or shared deep responsibility making the entire middle softer.
Zero2Cool  
#53 Posted : Monday, November 11, 2013 3:39:32 PM(UTC)
If I had to make a case to fire/replace Dom Capers, it would go something like this.

2009 when your offense scores 45, you need to win, period.
Packers 45
Cardinals 51

2010 bang up awesome job that netted XLV

2011 giving up 37 points in a playoff game???
Packers 20
Giants 37

2012 giving up 45 points in a playoff game???
Packers 31
49ers 45



Three times out of four his defense has failed when it needs to absolutely SHOW UP.
nerdmann  
#54 Posted : Monday, November 11, 2013 3:39:36 PM(UTC)
PackFanWithTwins said: Go to Quoted Post
What makes me scratch my head. When we don't get pressure and the QB has time, it never fails that a WR/TE will come open across the middle. 8-15 yards deep, behind the LBers and in front of our Safeties. Yet, when Rodgers is in the pocket with time, we don't seem to have the same, we seem to always have our receivers at the sidelines.

The question is, is that a difference in offensive strategy in scramble drills, or is it designed for that to be against our defense because that is one of the weak spots.

There are two traditional weak spots in our passing defense, the 10-15 yard area across the board both on edges and middle. But how do we stop it? The best way is to get pressure so the routes don't have to develop into that area. As far as coverage what can we do?

Drop LBers deeper in the middle, seems all that would do is open up the short crossing routes.

Personally, I think this also goes back to not having Nick Collins deep. He had the speed to cover sideline to sideline and could be left deep by himself. Now we have to run more 2 deep or shared deep responsibility making the entire middle softer.


Capers always seems to leave the middle of the field uncovered. So if I'm an opposing OC, of course I'm gonna drag a guy across the middle.

Now our QB has guys open underneath, he just wants to throw deep instead.
wpr  
#55 Posted : Monday, November 11, 2013 3:57:52 PM(UTC)
PackFanWithTwins said: Go to Quoted Post

Personally, I think this also goes back to not having Nick Collins deep. He had the speed to cover sideline to sideline and could be left deep by himself. Now we have to run more 2 deep or shared deep responsibility making the entire middle softer.


it is not going to get better soon. The draft looks extremely weak at FS

Code:

cbs
Player		                       School	Class	Ht.	Wt.	Proj. Round
Hasean Clinton-Dix	Alabama	Jr	6-1	208	1
Lamarcus Joyner	        Florida State	Sr	5-8	190	2
Dion Bailey	                So Cal	rJr	6-0	200	2-3
Terrence Brooks	        Fl State	Sr	5-11	200	3-4
Tre Boston		        N C	Sr	6-0	205	3-4
Ty Zimmerman	        Kansas St	rSr	6-1	204	4
Kenny Ladler	        Vanderbilt	Sr	6-0	205	4-5
Marqueston Huff	        Wyoming	Sr	5-11	195	5
Nickoe Whitley	        Miss St	rSr	6-0	205	5-6
Avery Patterson	        Oregon	rSr	5-9	190	6-7


other web site have more in the 2nd 3rd than CBS but they also include SS and I don't want to take the time to separate them.
DoddPower  
#56 Posted : Monday, November 11, 2013 10:35:38 PM(UTC)
play2win said: Go to Quoted Post
We are down a number of LBs due to injury. What else do I want? How about flexing to a 4-3? We have the DL healthy enough for this. Makes perfect sense. I don't see why Dom doesn't go to this more often. Where is Josh Boyd?

From what I've seen, GB in a 2-4-5 is and has been, for years, very, very ineffective. That's why I don't want to see it anymore. We need pass rush. Our secondary is getting killed without getting more pressure on a consistent basis. Raji, Picket, Jolly and Wilson have combined to make 1 sack on the season. One. Jolly. Datone has 3. Daniels 4.5. Through 9 games.

Only 2 INTs by our secondary (Shields and House with one each). As a team, our defense is dead last in the NFL in INTs with 3. To me, that points to a lack of pressure, and all I see when we go to a 2-4-5 is a lack of pressure on the opposing QB.


I don't think Jolly, Pickett, Boyd, or Wilson would improve the pass rush, at all. In fact, it would probably make it worse. Those players offer very little in the pass rushing department. Raji has the ability, but disappears for long stretches. That only leaves a combination of Raji/Daniels/Jones as pass rushing defensive linemen. The Packers best pass rushers are Clay Mathews, Nick Perry, and probably Neal, although he might be tied with Daniels, at this point. Therefore, when healthy, I would want Mathews, Daniels, Raji, and Perry on the field on passing downs, which is what happens when those players are healthy. Raji is exchangeable with any other player, and hopefully Datone Jones pushes him out of the sub-packages.

You may not like the Packers pass rushing options, but that's the best they have to offer at this point, imo. The Packers have a lot of defensive linemen, but only really one or two that are actually effective with their pass rush. Adding more space eating run-stuffing players to the field on passing downs doesn't sound like it would help things at all.

With that being said, I agree with you that more creativity would be nice. I would love to see a combination of a 4-3/3-4 defense, especially on early downs. I've wanted something like that for years now, but it rarely happens. I don't find Capers very creative at all. He has some interesting looking blitzes, but most of them have become relatively familiar to opposing defenses.

Either way, the key to the pass rush is getting Mathews and Perry fully healthy. Otherwise, let's hope to reload in the off season, I guess.

EDIT: Perhaps Worthy will come back at some point, too. He probably wouldn't be effective this season anyway, but he certainly has/had the potential to be a good pass rusher in the middle. It's worth a shot. He'd probably provide more value than some of the other fringe players.
User is suspended until 4/29/2043 11:56:55 PM(UTC) texaspackerbacker  
#57 Posted : Tuesday, November 12, 2013 12:38:39 AM(UTC)
I assume you guys are aware, 2 down linemen or 3 doesn't necessarily mean a 2 or 3 man rush. Aranda - the Badger D coordinator, as well as New Orleans against Dallas have used an alignment with 0 down linemen - about 5 line or LB types standing along the line, creating confusion as to exactly where the pass rush will come from. THAT is just a more extreme version of our 2-4-5.

The last thing we need is a big fatty like Raji in the game in passing situations. For that matter, we don't need a big softy like Raji in for run situations also - getting pushed around like he weighs about half what he really does.
wpr  
#58 Posted : Tuesday, November 12, 2013 5:55:42 AM(UTC)
yes we are aware if you read my earlier post I said I want 4 fattys that will clog the middle of the line and collapse the pocket into the QBs lap not allowing him the time or the place in which to step up and make a throw.
play2win  
#59 Posted : Tuesday, November 12, 2013 7:41:16 AM(UTC)
DoddPower said: Go to Quoted Post
I don't think Jolly, Pickett, Boyd, or Wilson would improve the pass rush, at all. In fact, it would probably make it worse. Those players offer very little in the pass rushing department. Raji has the ability, but disappears for long stretches. That only leaves a combination of Raji/Daniels/Jones as pass rushing defensive linemen. The Packers best pass rushers are Clay Mathews, Nick Perry, and probably Neal, although he might be tied with Daniels, at this point. Therefore, when healthy, I would want Mathews, Daniels, Raji, and Perry on the field on passing downs, which is what happens when those players are healthy. Raji is exchangeable with any other player, and hopefully Datone Jones pushes him out of the sub-packages.

You may not like the Packers pass rushing options, but that's the best they have to offer at this point, imo. The Packers have a lot of defensive linemen, but only really one or two that are actually effective with their pass rush. Adding more space eating run-stuffing players to the field on passing downs doesn't sound like it would help things at all.

With that being said, I agree with you that more creativity would be nice. I would love to see a combination of a 4-3/3-4 defense, especially on early downs. I've wanted something like that for years now, but it rarely happens. I don't find Capers very creative at all. He has some interesting looking blitzes, but most of them have become relatively familiar to opposing defenses.

Either way, the key to the pass rush is getting Mathews and Perry fully healthy. Otherwise, let's hope to reload in the off season, I guess.

EDIT: Perhaps Worthy will come back at some point, too. He probably wouldn't be effective this season anyway, but he certainly has/had the potential to be a good pass rusher in the middle. It's worth a shot. He'd probably provide more value than some of the other fringe players.


Yeah, DoddPower, I've been thinking about Worthy too. It is possible this DL gets the shake up at some point if they continue to fall to produce. I expected more from CJ Wilson early in the season, and more from both Raji and Pickett, and Jolly for that matter. The larger point is we have two other players that we have not heard from at all who are supposed to be fairly adept at getting to the QB, and both have relatively quick feet for their size in Boyd and Worthy.

Maybe we do see one or both of these players in the lineup before long. I've been wanting to see us flex into 4-3 for years, and now would be a great time to try it. I know what you are saying about our outside rushers in Perry and Neal, but remember Perry was at his best in a 4-3 coming off the edge at USC. He could be more effective with his hand down in a 4-3. He's been OK standing up, getting 3 sacks on the year, but I'd like to see him flying in off the edge in a 4-3. Maybe Dom implements this. We'll see.

With all these LBs having gone down, and a dearth of DL at their disposal, it wouldn't hurt.
steveishere  
#60 Posted : Tuesday, November 12, 2013 8:03:18 AM(UTC)
I think the best pass rush option in a 4-3 would be Perry-Raji-Daniels-Neal and have Clay Matthews at LB similar to what Von Miller does. Clay has enough ability and versatility that I don't buy arguments that his contract would prevent the team from leaving a 3-4 he would make a huge impact in any defense. We have the people to pull it off at least on paper but the biggest issue is there's too much depth at DT and 0 at DE. I think they'll stay at 3-4 and if Capers is fired look for a new coach that will run a 3-4 though. I don't see why Dom can't use some 4-3 elements or alignments sometimes though a lot of the 3-4 defenses do that like Baltimore
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