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Offline Wade  
#31 Posted : Monday, November 11, 2013 10:53:08 AM(UTC)
Wade

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1. I don't have a problem with replacing Capers or position coaches, whether it is done now or at the end of the season. However ... the reality is that you aren't going to be able to install any major "system" changes in mid-season. Even if the new coach "has his system designed and ready to go," you aren't going to have enough time to do much system-changing.

2. I don't have a problem with criticizing Thompson in his ability to get sufficient talent. But the reality is there is no significant ability to infuse new talent mid-season. Mostly you've got people other teams don't want that have been out there for a while (the defensive equivalent of Wallace and Tolzein) or people with injury questions (the defensive equivalent of Flynn).

3. IMO, if there is going to be any major improvement on defense (or, if you are more optimistic, a return to the defensive quality we saw prior to the Bears game) this season, it most likely going to be in (i) finding a way to get better play (ii) from the current players playing (iii) the system they are currently playing. How do you do that? Maybe by putting a light-a-fire motivator in charge (Greene? McCarthy himself). Maybe by sending a message by benching someone who people figured more or less untouchable (Raji? Burnett? Jones?). dunno. Maybe telling the assistant coaches that unless a fire gets lit under the subset of players under their supervision that they will be gone. Find a way to tell everyone, and tell it believably, that everyone's job (save Hawk's and Matthews and, IMO, Pickett) is at serious risk at season's end, period. Maybe all of the above.

McCarthy and his assistants are going to be earning their money and putting longer hours than ever from here on out.
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
Offline PackFanWithTwins  
#32 Posted : Monday, November 11, 2013 11:07:30 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: wpr Go to Quoted Post
The nice thing about sitting here on the internet (besides avoiding the work that is on our desks.) is we don't have to come up with a better plan. We don't have to name the DC who will do a better job. All we have to do is voice our discontent with Capers.

As far as a failure of the players = failure of the coaching staff as a whole.

I personally have not been much of a fan of the Psycho 1-5-5 or 2-4-5 or what ever formations he runs out there. It may work for a few snaps against a rookie if he and his OC are not prepared for it but 2-3 years later it is no longer a surprise and it is not as effective as it was the very first time it was trotted out.


Our Dline has been very good mostly. Our ILBs have been solid even with injuries. OLB has struggled overcoming their injuries but I would say who has been playing fairly well considering the injuries and players switching positions.

Where we have been hurt the most is the secondary and mainly coverage across the middle which points me to Safety. So perhaps we need to look at our secondary coaches and players. though We could blame Capers for his position coaches.

I don't think Hayward was ready to come back, and that hurt us. That moved Williams back outside. I think we are best with Shields and House on the edge. with Tramon covering the slot.
The world needs ditch diggers to Danny!!!
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Offline luigis  
#33 Posted : Monday, November 11, 2013 11:58:40 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: PackFanWithTwins Go to Quoted Post
Our Dline has been very good mostly. Our ILBs have been solid even with injuries. OLB has struggled overcoming their injuries but I would say who has been playing fairly well considering the injuries and players switching positions.

Where we have been hurt the most is the secondary and mainly coverage across the middle which points me to Safety. So perhaps we need to look at our secondary coaches and players. though We could blame Capers for his position coaches.

I don't think Hayward was ready to come back, and that hurt us. That moved Williams back outside. I think we are best with Shields and House on the edge. with Tramon covering the slot.


I agree with you. Hayward's return destroyed our defense.

I think it had a very negative effect on the players attitude. House and Hyde were playing really well and they both said, specially House, that they have done all they could to keep playing many snaps. Then suddenly Hayward returns and plays 29 snaps. House and Hyde just disappeared.

I don't know if this was Capers fault but he is responsible for that so it add against him.

Shields, Tramon, House and Hyde had found good chemistry and Hayward =who can't tackle my grandma= destroyed that chemistry.
Luis
Offline texaspackerbacker  
#34 Posted : Monday, November 11, 2013 12:50:16 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: nerdmann Go to Quoted Post
We've got what, 6 first round picks on defense? A number of 2-3's?

Capers can do it with smoke and mirrors, but he's been exposed the last two weeks. BADLY.

Now he's got Clay back, so he should be back up to relatively full strength.

Capers track record is that the middle of the field goes uncovered and also, the team sh!ts itself on a regular basis. The defense hasn't shown up ready to play for 60 either of the last two weeks.

Btw, Brad Jones had plenty of free agent interest, although I like Lattimore just as much if not more. And as for Datone, dude had TWO sacks yesterday. Sounds like the ankle is getting better.


That six would be who? Raji, Datone Jones, Perry, Hawk, Matthews, and who am I missing, that's only five. Significantly, none of those five are DBs - the portion of the D that has been less bad. The front seven has stunk the worst - Raji worst of all.

My question - when deciding to blame Capers or not, is who was the prime decision maker on those draft picks? Arguably NONE of them other than Matthews was a decent pick. It's probably too soon to judge Datone as bad, maybe the same with Perry, and Hawk finally after 6 or 7 years of mediocrity is playing decent this season - still not up to the level of where he was drafted. And Raji is a big worthless lump - a disappointment if he had been drafted in the 4th round much less the 1st.

I'm convinced that the lack of interceptions and fumble recoveries this season is luck and circumstance, not anything Capers can be blamed for. The same is true of a lot of the big plays against us like that first TD yesterday. On that play, we had double coverage, but no pass rush without blitzing - because of poor quality in the front seven - what are you gonna do? You can only compensate for so much with schemes.

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If Anything I Say Smacks of Extremism, Please Tell Me EXACTLY What.
Offline texaspackerbacker  
#35 Posted : Monday, November 11, 2013 1:19:41 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Wade Go to Quoted Post
1. I don't have a problem with replacing Capers or position coaches, whether it is done now or at the end of the season. However ... the reality is that you aren't going to be able to install any major "system" changes in mid-season. Even if the new coach "has his system designed and ready to go," you aren't going to have enough time to do much system-changing.

2. I don't have a problem with criticizing Thompson in his ability to get sufficient talent. But the reality is there is no significant ability to infuse new talent mid-season. Mostly you've got people other teams don't want that have been out there for a while (the defensive equivalent of Wallace and Tolzein) or people with injury questions (the defensive equivalent of Flynn).

3. IMO, if there is going to be any major improvement on defense (or, if you are more optimistic, a return to the defensive quality we saw prior to the Bears game) this season, it most likely going to be in (i) finding a way to get better play (ii) from the current players playing (iii) the system they are currently playing. How do you do that? Maybe by putting a light-a-fire motivator in charge (Greene? McCarthy himself). Maybe by sending a message by benching someone who people figured more or less untouchable (Raji? Burnett? Jones?). dunno. Maybe telling the assistant coaches that unless a fire gets lit under the subset of players under their supervision that they will be gone. Find a way to tell everyone, and tell it believably, that everyone's job (save Hawk's and Matthews and, IMO, Pickett) is at serious risk at season's end, period. Maybe all of the above.

McCarthy and his assistants are going to be earning their money and putting longer hours than ever from here on out.


I agree with a lot of what you say, Wade. The question is, WHY was the Packers D better (or at least SEEMED better) before the Bears game?

Somebody in one of these threads sarcastically said "it's all about Aaron Rodgers - even the bad D now that he is out". Well, that's true. Opposition offenses play different when the Packers are ahead. They are limited in their playcalling - playing catch-up with a lot of passing, etc. - allow Capers' schemes to work and compensate for low quality personnel. So yes, not having Aaron Rodgers really does affect our defense also.

Hopefully with Tolzien starting the game - prepared and with a gameplan designed for him, we can take the lead and force some of the same stuff as when Rodgers is there.

Expressing the Good Normal Views of Good Normal Americans.
If Anything I Say Smacks of Extremism, Please Tell Me EXACTLY What.
Offline PackFanWithTwins  
#36 Posted : Monday, November 11, 2013 1:32:52 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: texaspackerbacker Go to Quoted Post
I agree with a lot of what you say, Wade. The question is, WHY was the Packers D better (or at least SEEMED better) before the Bears game?

Somebody in one of these threads sarcastically said "it's all about Aaron Rodgers - even the bad D now that he is out". Well, that's true. Opposition offenses play different when the Packers are ahead. They are limited in their playcalling - playing catch-up with a lot of passing, etc. - allow Capers' schemes to work and compensate for low quality personnel. So yes, not having Aaron Rodgers really does affect our defense also.

Hopefully with Tolzien starting the game - prepared and with a gameplan designed for him, we can take the lead and force some of the same stuff as when Rodgers is there.



Can't agree on the difference being Rodgers. Offenses play the same until they get forced into being pass happy by being down, and this year even with Rodgers we were not blowing anybody's doors off to get to that point.

The biggest change that I see making a difference is Casey Hayward coming back. Which moved Tramon back outside. I think we are best in coverage with Shields and House on the edges. And Tramon in the slot.
The world needs ditch diggers to Danny!!!
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Offline luigis  
#37 Posted : Monday, November 11, 2013 1:37:13 PM(UTC)
luigis

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Originally Posted by: PackFanWithTwins Go to Quoted Post
Can't agree on the difference being Rodgers. Offenses play the same until they get forced into being pass happy by being down, and this year even with Rodgers we were not blowing anybody's doors off to get to that point.

The biggest change that I see making a difference is Casey Hayward coming back. Which moved Tramon back outside. I think we are best in coverage with Shields and House on the edges. And Tramon in the slot.


I think it's not only about coverage but about feelings. House and Hyde where having great chemistry and suddenly Hayward takes a spot. The inclusion of Hayward destroyed the chemistry in the secondary and it sent a confusing message to players "it doesn't matter how well you play I'll bench you anyway for no reason"
Luis
Online dhazer  
#38 Posted : Monday, November 11, 2013 1:52:04 PM(UTC)
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Why is alot of you saying the downfall started with the Bears game? I look at see the following:

49ers = 34
Redskins = 20
Bengals = 34
Lions =9
ravens = 17
Browns = 13
Vikings = 31
Bears = 27
Eagles = 27



granted the last 4 games were against backup qbs but we have been giving up points all year.
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Just Imagine this for the next 6-9 years. What a ride it will be :)
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DoddPower on 11/11/2013(UTC)
Offline steveishere  
#39 Posted : Monday, November 11, 2013 1:54:45 PM(UTC)
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I don't think it's Hayward that's the issue. I don't think the CBs have really been too bad at all even in the last couple games. It's mostly been safeties. The biggest difference I've seen is McCown and Foles are pretty much on hot streaks right now while the QBs we played before them were Flacco and Weeden who have both been having awful seasons. Hayward was in the secondary against Minnesota and they only gave up 145 yards.
Offline play2win  
#40 Posted : Monday, November 11, 2013 1:55:47 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: dhazer Go to Quoted Post
Why is alot of you saying the downfall started with the Bears game? I look at see the following:

49ers = 34
Redskins = 20
Bengals = 34
Lions =9
ravens = 17
Browns = 13
Vikings = 31
Bears = 27
Eagles = 27



granted the last 4 games were against backup qbs but we have been giving up points all year.


3 years running at that. I'm kind of with Dakota. I can't see McCarthy doing it, but would not mind seeing it happen. And, as he said, that 2 man DL shit is for the birds… ugh. I don't ever want to see it again. I remember thinking that yesterday when I saw it, saying to myself, "why is there just Raji and Pick on the line?" Gasket/mind blown...
Offline play2win  
#41 Posted : Monday, November 11, 2013 1:57:56 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: steveishere Go to Quoted Post
I don't think it's Hayward that's the issue. I don't think the CBs have really been too bad at all even in the last couple games. It's mostly been safeties. The biggest difference I've seen is McCown and Foles are pretty much on hot streaks right now while the QBs we played before them were Flacco and Weeden who have both been having awful seasons. Hayward was in the secondary against Minnesota and they only gave up 145 yards.


Yeah, but Hayward has not looked anything like he did last season. I don't think anyone could have predicted that he'd hit the sophomore slump like this. He looks WAY off.
Offline DoddPower  
#42 Posted : Monday, November 11, 2013 2:04:01 PM(UTC)
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I think firing Capers now would be a bit of a knee-jerk reaction, which isn't really McCarthy's style. However, it could show that McCarthy has some balls and isn't going to put up with continued average play. I think sometimes McCarthy is too soft. It's great to be patient and loyal, but in the NFL, it can be advantageous to hold people accountable for their mistakes, even if it seems a bit cold. It can send a message that it won't be tolerated, which perhaps can make the coach's and players work harder, if at all possible.

Of course, the above may not work out, but I'm not opposed to a different approach. Caper's defenses haven't been bad overall, but they certainly have been mostly average, which shouldn't be the standard of "good enough." There are many defensive coordinators that could get more out of the talent the Packers defense has, imo. I wouldn't have been disappointed if Capers wasn't brought back this season, as was being discussed. Ted Thompson is pretty good at getting rid of players a year early than a year too late, but the same can't be said of the coaching staff, whether's that's Thompson or McCarthy's "fault."
Offline steveishere  
#43 Posted : Monday, November 11, 2013 2:05:36 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: play2win Go to Quoted Post
Yeah, but Hayward has not looked anything like he did last season. I don't think anyone could have predicted that he'd hit the sophomore slump like this. He looks WAY off.


I don't get this. He hasn't looked as good as last year but he hasn't been out there getting beat left and right or anything. He's given up 3 catches in the Chicago game and 1 each in the other 2 (only 1 catch over 10 yards). House or Tramon have been beaten much worse in those games than Hayward. He's rusty but I don't see how he can be WAY off unless he's giving up some big catches.
Offline DoddPower  
#44 Posted : Monday, November 11, 2013 2:07:59 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: steveishere Go to Quoted Post
I don't get this. He hasn't looked as good as last year but he hasn't been out there getting beat left and right or anything. He's given up 3 catches in the Chicago game and 1 each in the other 2 (only 1 catch over 10 yards). House or Tramon have been beaten much worse in those games than Hayward. He's rusty but I don't see how he can be WAY off unless he's giving up some big catches.


Well, he certainly hasn't been tackling well, and just doesn't look physical at all out there. I'm OK with a DB not being a very good tackler, but they better be very good in coverage if that's the case.
Offline nerdmann  
#45 Posted : Monday, November 11, 2013 2:20:40 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: texaspackerbacker Go to Quoted Post
That six would be who? Raji, Datone Jones, Perry, Hawk, Matthews, and who am I missing, that's only five. Significantly, none of those five are DBs - the portion of the D that has been less bad. The front seven has stunk the worst - Raji worst of all.

My question - when deciding to blame Capers or not, is who was the prime decision maker on those draft picks? Arguably NONE of them other than Matthews was a decent pick. It's probably too soon to judge Datone as bad, maybe the same with Perry, and Hawk finally after 6 or 7 years of mediocrity is playing decent this season - still not up to the level of where he was drafted. And Raji is a big worthless lump - a disappointment if he had been drafted in the 4th round much less the 1st.

I'm convinced that the lack of interceptions and fumble recoveries this season is luck and circumstance, not anything Capers can be blamed for. The same is true of a lot of the big plays against us like that first TD yesterday. On that play, we had double coverage, but no pass rush without blitzing - because of poor quality in the front seven - what are you gonna do? You can only compensate for so much with schemes.



The talent is there.
“Winning is not a sometime thing, it is an all the time thing. You don't do things right once in a while…you do them right all the time.”
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