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Offline play2win  
#41 Posted : Monday, November 11, 2013 1:57:56 PM(UTC)
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steveishere said: Go to Quoted Post
I don't think it's Hayward that's the issue. I don't think the CBs have really been too bad at all even in the last couple games. It's mostly been safeties. The biggest difference I've seen is McCown and Foles are pretty much on hot streaks right now while the QBs we played before them were Flacco and Weeden who have both been having awful seasons. Hayward was in the secondary against Minnesota and they only gave up 145 yards.


Yeah, but Hayward has not looked anything like he did last season. I don't think anyone could have predicted that he'd hit the sophomore slump like this. He looks WAY off.
Offline DoddPower  
#42 Posted : Monday, November 11, 2013 2:04:01 PM(UTC)
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I think firing Capers now would be a bit of a knee-jerk reaction, which isn't really McCarthy's style. However, it could show that McCarthy has some balls and isn't going to put up with continued average play. I think sometimes McCarthy is too soft. It's great to be patient and loyal, but in the NFL, it can be advantageous to hold people accountable for their mistakes, even if it seems a bit cold. It can send a message that it won't be tolerated, which perhaps can make the coach's and players work harder, if at all possible.

Of course, the above may not work out, but I'm not opposed to a different approach. Caper's defenses haven't been bad overall, but they certainly have been mostly average, which shouldn't be the standard of "good enough." There are many defensive coordinators that could get more out of the talent the Packers defense has, imo. I wouldn't have been disappointed if Capers wasn't brought back this season, as was being discussed. Ted Thompson is pretty good at getting rid of players a year early than a year too late, but the same can't be said of the coaching staff, whether's that's Thompson or McCarthy's "fault."
Offline steveishere  
#43 Posted : Monday, November 11, 2013 2:05:36 PM(UTC)
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play2win said: Go to Quoted Post
Yeah, but Hayward has not looked anything like he did last season. I don't think anyone could have predicted that he'd hit the sophomore slump like this. He looks WAY off.


I don't get this. He hasn't looked as good as last year but he hasn't been out there getting beat left and right or anything. He's given up 3 catches in the Chicago game and 1 each in the other 2 (only 1 catch over 10 yards). House or Tramon have been beaten much worse in those games than Hayward. He's rusty but I don't see how he can be WAY off unless he's giving up some big catches.
Offline DoddPower  
#44 Posted : Monday, November 11, 2013 2:07:59 PM(UTC)
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steveishere said: Go to Quoted Post
I don't get this. He hasn't looked as good as last year but he hasn't been out there getting beat left and right or anything. He's given up 3 catches in the Chicago game and 1 each in the other 2 (only 1 catch over 10 yards). House or Tramon have been beaten much worse in those games than Hayward. He's rusty but I don't see how he can be WAY off unless he's giving up some big catches.


Well, he certainly hasn't been tackling well, and just doesn't look physical at all out there. I'm OK with a DB not being a very good tackler, but they better be very good in coverage if that's the case.
Offline nerdmann  
#45 Posted : Monday, November 11, 2013 2:20:40 PM(UTC)
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texaspackerbacker said: Go to Quoted Post
That six would be who? Raji, Datone Jones, Perry, Hawk, Matthews, and who am I missing, that's only five. Significantly, none of those five are DBs - the portion of the D that has been less bad. The front seven has stunk the worst - Raji worst of all.

My question - when deciding to blame Capers or not, is who was the prime decision maker on those draft picks? Arguably NONE of them other than Matthews was a decent pick. It's probably too soon to judge Datone as bad, maybe the same with Perry, and Hawk finally after 6 or 7 years of mediocrity is playing decent this season - still not up to the level of where he was drafted. And Raji is a big worthless lump - a disappointment if he had been drafted in the 4th round much less the 1st.

I'm convinced that the lack of interceptions and fumble recoveries this season is luck and circumstance, not anything Capers can be blamed for. The same is true of a lot of the big plays against us like that first TD yesterday. On that play, we had double coverage, but no pass rush without blitzing - because of poor quality in the front seven - what are you gonna do? You can only compensate for so much with schemes.



The talent is there.
Offline DoddPower  
#46 Posted : Monday, November 11, 2013 2:29:37 PM(UTC)
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play2win said: Go to Quoted Post
3 years running at that. I'm kind of with Dakota. I can't see McCarthy doing it, but would not mind seeing it happen. And, as he said, that 2 man DL sh!t is for the birds… ugh. I don't ever want to see it again. I remember thinking that yesterday when I saw it, saying to myself, "why is there just Raji and Pick on the line?" Gasket/mind blown...


I don't see why people have such a problem with the 2-4-5. That's just a basic nickle package, and is the a staple of a 3-4 defense. What else do you want? Remove Perry/Mathews from the field for another defensive linemen? Take a DB out and put in another defensive linemen? Both of those ideas have big drawbacks. If it's an issue with the timing of a nickle package call, that's one thing, but disliking a nickle defense overall just seems silly to me. It's basically the standard in the NFL these days, and might as well be the "base" package for most teams in most games. With Perry or Neal on the field, it's basically just like having three defensive linemen on the field anyway, because the distinction between LB and DL is just a matter of labeling for them. Defensive end or linebacker, it really doesn't make much difference.
Offline wpr  
#47 Posted : Monday, November 11, 2013 2:39:36 PM(UTC)
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DoddPower said: Go to Quoted Post
I don't see why people have such a problem with the 2-4-5. That's just a basic nickle package, and is the a staple of a 3-4 defense. What else do you want? Remove Perry/Mathews from the field for another defensive linemen? Take a DB out and put in another defensive linemen? Both of those ideas have big drawbacks. If it's an issue with the timing of a nickle package call, that's one thing, but disliking a nickle defense overall just seems silly to me. It's basically the standard in the NFL these days, and might as well be the "base" package for most teams in most games. With Perry or Neal on the field, it's basically just like having three defensive linemen on the field anyway, because the distinction between LB and DL is just a matter of labeling for them. Defensive end or linebacker, it really doesn't make much difference.


The problem has been and still is they do not get a consistent pass rush with only 3 down line men and another maybe two linebackers coming as well. the QB can sit there and wait for a receiver to come open. (Even the best DBs can't cover forever.) The QB if he feels some pressure can rollout and buy time waiting for the receiver to get free.

The linebackers are typically smaller and the linemen can handle them when they do come. Give me 4 fattys that collapse the pocket right back into the QB's lap and give him no time to look to his 2nd or 3rd option every single day of the week and ten times on Sunday and I will win the game more often than not.

edit-
BTW, if the DL is handing pushing the OL back I guarantee you there will be no running game up the middle either. The RB will have to try and take it wide. Then it is the LB and DB's job to shut it down. 7 professional football players SHOULD be able to tackle 1 RB for minimal gain more times than not.
Offline DoddPower  
#48 Posted : Monday, November 11, 2013 2:48:32 PM(UTC)
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wpr said: Go to Quoted Post
The problem has been and still is they do not get a consistent pass rush with only 3 down line men and another maybe two linebackers coming as well. the QB can sit there and wait for a receiver to come open. (Even the best DBs can't cover forever.) The QB if he feels some pressure can rollout and buy time waiting for the receiver to get free.

The linebackers are typically smaller and the linemen can handle them when they do come. Give me 4 fattys that collapse the pocket right back into the QB's lap and give him no time to look to his 2nd or 3rd option every single day of the week and ten times on Sunday and I will win the game more often than not.

edit-
BTW, if the DL is handing pushing the OL back I guarantee you there will be no running game up the middle either. The RB will have to try and take it wide. Then it is the LB and DB's job to shut it down. 7 professional football players SHOULD be able to tackle 1 RB for minimal gain more times than not.


That just sounds like a complaint about personnel or winning match ups. 3-4 outside linebackers should be able to win against offensive tackles. Obviously they are not going to be as big, and I wouldn't want them to be. They are, however (or should be), more athletic, quicker, etc. Perry and Neal aren't really "smaller" than most defensive ends in a 4-3 system, anyway, and Mathews has shown that his size isn't a limitation when he's healthy.

Again, I don't think it has anything to do with the nickle defense, it's just a matter of the personnel winning their match ups. When mostly healthy, Mathews, Daniels, Raji, and Perry is a nice nickle pass rushing defense (or some similar combination of those players). At this point, it has as much to do with health as anything else. I think this team can rush the passer when healthy, but it's going to be very difficult when basically the two top pass rushers are out of the game or only playing at ~70%.
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Offline wpr  
#49 Posted : Monday, November 11, 2013 2:54:02 PM(UTC)
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DoddPower said: Go to Quoted Post
That just sounds like a complaint about personnel or winning match ups. 3-4 outside linebackers should be able to win against offensive tackles. Obviously they are not going to be as big, and I wouldn't want them to be. They are, however (or should be), more athletic, quicker, etc. Perry and Neal aren't really "smaller" than most defensive ends in a 4-3 system, anyway, and Mathews has shown that his size isn't a limitation when he's healthy.

Again, I don't think it has anything to do with the nickle defense, it's just a matter of the personnel winning their match ups. When mostly healthy, Mathews, Daniels, Raji, and Perry is a nice nickle pass rushing defense (or some similar combination of those players). At this point, it has as much to do with health as anything else. I think this team can rush the passer when healthy, but it's going to be very difficult when basically the two top pass rushers are out of the game or only playing at ~70%.


If it was something that was based on the last 3-4 even 5 weeks I would say you are correct but Dom has run the 2-4-5 for 4 years and I have not seen much success from it in any season outside an occasional play or 2 in a game. Have you seen it as a consistently successful formation down after down week in and week out year after year after year?

again edit- If there are "personnel issues" whose fault is that? Ted first, Mike 2nd and DC Capers third in line. If he doesn't have the proper personnel then don't run that formation. It s not going to work is it?
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play2win on 11/11/2013(UTC)
Offline steveishere  
#50 Posted : Monday, November 11, 2013 3:02:49 PM(UTC)
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wpr said: Go to Quoted Post
If it was something that was based on the last 3-4 even 5 weeks I would say you are correct but Dom has run the 2-4-5 for 4 years and I have not seen much success from it in any season outside an occasional play or 2 in a game. Have you seen it as a consistently successful formation down after down week in and week out year after year after year?

again edit- If there are "personnel issues" whose fault is that? Ted first, Mike 2nd and DC Capers third in line. If he doesn't have the proper personnel then don't run that formation. It s not going to work is it?


When healthy I think Matthews/Perry are good enough for a consistent pass rush from the edges. The problem we've had is a lack of DT type rushers. Our pass rush was beast when Jenkins was here. Raji is too inconsistent. He'll have a game here or there where he does what Jenkins did but he disappears too much.

I think it's time to let Daniels be a full time player. He's supposedly "undersized" but it has not to this point limited him in the slightest. He's been by far IMO the best most consistent player in the front 7 this year. Hopefully the glimpse from Jones is a sign of things. Jolly and Pickett are solid players but they both offer 0 pass rush and with Raji not stepping up they need to try something else. I think Daniels has earned a full time role.
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