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Offline play2win  
#101 Posted : Monday, November 11, 2013 3:03:47 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DoddPower Go to Quoted Post
I don't see why people have such a problem with the 2-4-5. That's just a basic nickle package, and is the a staple of a 3-4 defense. What else do you want? Remove Perry/Mathews from the field for another defensive linemen? Take a DB out and put in another defensive linemen? Both of those ideas have big drawbacks. If it's an issue with the timing of a nickle package call, that's one thing, but disliking a nickle defense overall just seems silly to me. It's basically the standard in the NFL these days, and might as well be the "base" package for most teams in most games. With Perry or Neal on the field, it's basically just like having three defensive linemen on the field anyway, because the distinction between LB and DL is just a matter of labeling for them. Defensive end or linebacker, it really doesn't make much difference.


We are down a number of LBs due to injury. What else do I want? How about flexing to a 4-3? We have the DL healthy enough for this. Makes perfect sense. I don't see why Dom doesn't go to this more often. Where is Josh Boyd?

From what I've seen, GB in a 2-4-5 is and has been, for years, very, very ineffective. That's why I don't want to see it anymore. We need pass rush. Our secondary is getting killed without getting more pressure on a consistent basis. Raji, Picket, Jolly and Wilson have combined to make 1 sack on the season. One. Jolly. Datone has 3. Daniels 4.5. Through 9 games.

Only 2 INTs by our secondary (Shields and House with one each). As a team, our defense is dead last in the NFL in INTs with 3. To me, that points to a lack of pressure, and all I see when we go to a 2-4-5 is a lack of pressure on the opposing QB.
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wpr on 11/11/2013(UTC)
Offline PackFanWithTwins  
#102 Posted : Monday, November 11, 2013 3:31:07 PM(UTC)
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What makes me scratch my head. When we don't get pressure and the QB has time, it never fails that a WR/TE will come open across the middle. 8-15 yards deep, behind the LBers and in front of our Safeties. Yet, when Rodgers is in the pocket with time, we don't seem to have the same, we seem to always have our receivers at the sidelines.

The question is, is that a difference in offensive strategy in scramble drills, or is it designed for that to be against our defense because that is one of the weak spots.

There are two traditional weak spots in our passing defense, the 10-15 yard area across the board both on edges and middle. But how do we stop it? The best way is to get pressure so the routes don't have to develop into that area. As far as coverage what can we do?

Drop LBers deeper in the middle, seems all that would do is open up the short crossing routes.

Personally, I think this also goes back to not having Nick Collins deep. He had the speed to cover sideline to sideline and could be left deep by himself. Now we have to run more 2 deep or shared deep responsibility making the entire middle softer.
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Offline Zero2Cool  
#103 Posted : Monday, November 11, 2013 3:39:32 PM(UTC)
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If I had to make a case to fire/replace Dom Capers, it would go something like this.

2009 when your offense scores 45, you need to win, period.
Packers 45
Cardinals 51

2010 bang up awesome job that netted XLV

2011 giving up 37 points in a playoff game???
Packers 20
Giants 37

2012 giving up 45 points in a playoff game???
Packers 31
49ers 45



Three times out of four his defense has failed when it needs to absolutely SHOW UP.
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VinceLambeauStarr on 11/12/2013(UTC)
Offline nerdmann  
#104 Posted : Monday, November 11, 2013 3:39:36 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: PackFanWithTwins Go to Quoted Post
What makes me scratch my head. When we don't get pressure and the QB has time, it never fails that a WR/TE will come open across the middle. 8-15 yards deep, behind the LBers and in front of our Safeties. Yet, when Rodgers is in the pocket with time, we don't seem to have the same, we seem to always have our receivers at the sidelines.

The question is, is that a difference in offensive strategy in scramble drills, or is it designed for that to be against our defense because that is one of the weak spots.

There are two traditional weak spots in our passing defense, the 10-15 yard area across the board both on edges and middle. But how do we stop it? The best way is to get pressure so the routes don't have to develop into that area. As far as coverage what can we do?

Drop LBers deeper in the middle, seems all that would do is open up the short crossing routes.

Personally, I think this also goes back to not having Nick Collins deep. He had the speed to cover sideline to sideline and could be left deep by himself. Now we have to run more 2 deep or shared deep responsibility making the entire middle softer.


Capers always seems to leave the middle of the field uncovered. So if I'm an opposing OC, of course I'm gonna drag a guy across the middle.

Now our QB has guys open underneath, he just wants to throw deep instead.
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Offline wpr  
#105 Posted : Monday, November 11, 2013 3:57:52 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: PackFanWithTwins Go to Quoted Post

Personally, I think this also goes back to not having Nick Collins deep. He had the speed to cover sideline to sideline and could be left deep by himself. Now we have to run more 2 deep or shared deep responsibility making the entire middle softer.


it is not going to get better soon. The draft looks extremely weak at FS

Code:

cbs
Player         School    Class    Ht.    Wt.    Proj. Round
Hasean Clinton-Dix    Alabama    Jr    6-1    208    1
Lamarcus Joyner     Florida State    Sr    5-8    190    2
Dion Bailey     So Cal    rJr    6-0    200    2-3
Terrence Brooks     Fl State    Sr    5-11    200    3-4
Tre Boston         N C    Sr    6-0    205    3-4
Ty Zimmerman     Kansas St    rSr    6-1    204    4
Kenny Ladler     Vanderbilt    Sr    6-0    205    4-5
Marqueston Huff     Wyoming    Sr    5-11    195    5
Nickoe Whitley     Miss St    rSr    6-0    205    5-6
Avery Patterson     Oregon    rSr    5-9    190    6-7


other web site have more in the 2nd 3rd than CBS but they also include SS and I don't want to take the time to separate them.
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Offline DoddPower  
#106 Posted : Monday, November 11, 2013 10:35:38 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: play2win Go to Quoted Post
We are down a number of LBs due to injury. What else do I want? How about flexing to a 4-3? We have the DL healthy enough for this. Makes perfect sense. I don't see why Dom doesn't go to this more often. Where is Josh Boyd?

From what I've seen, GB in a 2-4-5 is and has been, for years, very, very ineffective. That's why I don't want to see it anymore. We need pass rush. Our secondary is getting killed without getting more pressure on a consistent basis. Raji, Picket, Jolly and Wilson have combined to make 1 sack on the season. One. Jolly. Datone has 3. Daniels 4.5. Through 9 games.

Only 2 INTs by our secondary (Shields and House with one each). As a team, our defense is dead last in the NFL in INTs with 3. To me, that points to a lack of pressure, and all I see when we go to a 2-4-5 is a lack of pressure on the opposing QB.


I don't think Jolly, Pickett, Boyd, or Wilson would improve the pass rush, at all. In fact, it would probably make it worse. Those players offer very little in the pass rushing department. Raji has the ability, but disappears for long stretches. That only leaves a combination of Raji/Daniels/Jones as pass rushing defensive linemen. The Packers best pass rushers are Clay Mathews, Nick Perry, and probably Neal, although he might be tied with Daniels, at this point. Therefore, when healthy, I would want Mathews, Daniels, Raji, and Perry on the field on passing downs, which is what happens when those players are healthy. Raji is exchangeable with any other player, and hopefully Datone Jones pushes him out of the sub-packages.

You may not like the Packers pass rushing options, but that's the best they have to offer at this point, imo. The Packers have a lot of defensive linemen, but only really one or two that are actually effective with their pass rush. Adding more space eating run-stuffing players to the field on passing downs doesn't sound like it would help things at all.

With that being said, I agree with you that more creativity would be nice. I would love to see a combination of a 4-3/3-4 defense, especially on early downs. I've wanted something like that for years now, but it rarely happens. I don't find Capers very creative at all. He has some interesting looking blitzes, but most of them have become relatively familiar to opposing defenses.

Either way, the key to the pass rush is getting Mathews and Perry fully healthy. Otherwise, let's hope to reload in the off season, I guess.

EDIT: Perhaps Worthy will come back at some point, too. He probably wouldn't be effective this season anyway, but he certainly has/had the potential to be a good pass rusher in the middle. It's worth a shot. He'd probably provide more value than some of the other fringe players.
Offline texaspackerbacker  
#107 Posted : Tuesday, November 12, 2013 12:38:39 AM(UTC)
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I assume you guys are aware, 2 down linemen or 3 doesn't necessarily mean a 2 or 3 man rush. Aranda - the Badger D coordinator, as well as New Orleans against Dallas have used an alignment with 0 down linemen - about 5 line or LB types standing along the line, creating confusion as to exactly where the pass rush will come from. THAT is just a more extreme version of our 2-4-5.

The last thing we need is a big fatty like Raji in the game in passing situations. For that matter, we don't need a big softy like Raji in for run situations also - getting pushed around like he weighs about half what he really does.
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Offline wpr  
#108 Posted : Tuesday, November 12, 2013 5:55:42 AM(UTC)
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yes we are aware if you read my earlier post I said I want 4 fattys that will clog the middle of the line and collapse the pocket into the QBs lap not allowing him the time or the place in which to step up and make a throw.
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Offline play2win  
#109 Posted : Tuesday, November 12, 2013 7:41:16 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DoddPower Go to Quoted Post
I don't think Jolly, Pickett, Boyd, or Wilson would improve the pass rush, at all. In fact, it would probably make it worse. Those players offer very little in the pass rushing department. Raji has the ability, but disappears for long stretches. That only leaves a combination of Raji/Daniels/Jones as pass rushing defensive linemen. The Packers best pass rushers are Clay Mathews, Nick Perry, and probably Neal, although he might be tied with Daniels, at this point. Therefore, when healthy, I would want Mathews, Daniels, Raji, and Perry on the field on passing downs, which is what happens when those players are healthy. Raji is exchangeable with any other player, and hopefully Datone Jones pushes him out of the sub-packages.

You may not like the Packers pass rushing options, but that's the best they have to offer at this point, imo. The Packers have a lot of defensive linemen, but only really one or two that are actually effective with their pass rush. Adding more space eating run-stuffing players to the field on passing downs doesn't sound like it would help things at all.

With that being said, I agree with you that more creativity would be nice. I would love to see a combination of a 4-3/3-4 defense, especially on early downs. I've wanted something like that for years now, but it rarely happens. I don't find Capers very creative at all. He has some interesting looking blitzes, but most of them have become relatively familiar to opposing defenses.

Either way, the key to the pass rush is getting Mathews and Perry fully healthy. Otherwise, let's hope to reload in the off season, I guess.

EDIT: Perhaps Worthy will come back at some point, too. He probably wouldn't be effective this season anyway, but he certainly has/had the potential to be a good pass rusher in the middle. It's worth a shot. He'd probably provide more value than some of the other fringe players.


Yeah, DoddPower, I've been thinking about Worthy too. It is possible this DL gets the shake up at some point if they continue to fall to produce. I expected more from CJ Wilson early in the season, and more from both Raji and Pickett, and Jolly for that matter. The larger point is we have two other players that we have not heard from at all who are supposed to be fairly adept at getting to the QB, and both have relatively quick feet for their size in Boyd and Worthy.

Maybe we do see one or both of these players in the lineup before long. I've been wanting to see us flex into 4-3 for years, and now would be a great time to try it. I know what you are saying about our outside rushers in Perry and Neal, but remember Perry was at his best in a 4-3 coming off the edge at USC. He could be more effective with his hand down in a 4-3. He's been OK standing up, getting 3 sacks on the year, but I'd like to see him flying in off the edge in a 4-3. Maybe Dom implements this. We'll see.

With all these LBs having gone down, and a dearth of DL at their disposal, it wouldn't hurt.
Offline steveishere  
#110 Posted : Tuesday, November 12, 2013 8:03:18 AM(UTC)
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I think the best pass rush option in a 4-3 would be Perry-Raji-Daniels-Neal and have Clay Matthews at LB similar to what Von Miller does. Clay has enough ability and versatility that I don't buy arguments that his contract would prevent the team from leaving a 3-4 he would make a huge impact in any defense. We have the people to pull it off at least on paper but the biggest issue is there's too much depth at DT and 0 at DE. I think they'll stay at 3-4 and if Capers is fired look for a new coach that will run a 3-4 though. I don't see why Dom can't use some 4-3 elements or alignments sometimes though a lot of the 3-4 defenses do that like Baltimore
Offline play2win  
#111 Posted : Tuesday, November 12, 2013 8:15:34 AM(UTC)
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Clay Matthews would make an awesome WILL LB in a 4-3. The playmaker. The Claymaker. He has all the versatility you look for in a WILL. Coverage. Pass Rush. Run Stop. Seek and Destroy.
Offline DoddPower  
#112 Posted : Tuesday, November 12, 2013 4:40:32 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: wpr Go to Quoted Post
yes we are aware if you read my earlier post I said I want 4 fattys that will clog the middle of the line and collapse the pocket into the QBs lap not allowing him the time or the place in which to step up and make a throw.


I suppose a defensive line of Jolly, Raji, Pickett, and Wilson would hold the point of attack and "clog the middle" pretty well, but I don't they would really collapse the pocket much. That's not really their game, especially Jolly, Wilson, and Pickett. If that was the case, they'd all be better pass rushers. Raji certainly has the talent to push the pocket, at times, but is far too inconsistent to be relied upon. Jolly and Wilson may get a little push, occasionally, but overall they are just too slow and most offensive linemen could at least hold their ground against them, even if they can't really drive them back in the running game.

As I said, I think the end result of a combination of bigger offensive linemen would just result in even less pass rush than the Packers have. Dom has ran a 5 defensive line package in the past on obvious rushing downs, and it wasn't very effective, either.

In my opinion, the best thing for the Packers pass rush is to get Mathews and Perry close to healthy and for Daniels, Jones, and possibly Worthy to continue to develop. I'm all for trying different things though, so I'd love to see Dom give the big guys a chance, but I think there's a good reason why he doesn't. Ultimately, the Packers just need Rodgers back so that they can score more points, force teams into mostly passing, and then give CM3, Perry, Daniels, Jones, Raji, Neal, et al. as many chances as possible to rush the QB. I think the Packers would be in the top 15 or possibly even top 10 in sacks if that was the case.
Offline texaspackerbacker  
#113 Posted : Tuesday, November 12, 2013 5:13:37 PM(UTC)
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We don't need no F'in fatties. By next season, we need Pickett to retire, Raji to sign with somebody else; Jolly to be NT in the base with Boyd maybe apprenticing at NT, with Daniels and D. Jones at the DE positions.

In passing situations, we need Daniels at NT with D. Jones and Neal either standing or in three-point, along with the 3-4 best LBs we can put on the field - Matthews and 2-3 question marks at this point, along with 4-5 DBs.

In extreme passing situations, take out Neal and/or 1-2 of the LBs, and use 5-6 DBs.

Have as many as 6 of those in any of the above situations positioned to rush the passer as needed.

We don't need to go to a base 4-3, and we don't need to get rid of Capers and his blitz packages.
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Offline wpr  
#114 Posted : Tuesday, November 12, 2013 6:10:59 PM(UTC)
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yeah let's stick a few 215 pound guys on the line and see how well they do. Rolling Eyes
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Offline DoddPower  
#115 Posted : Tuesday, November 12, 2013 6:11:46 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: play2win Go to Quoted Post
Clay Matthews would make an awesome WILL LB in a 4-3. The playmaker. The Claymaker. He has all the versatility you look for in a WILL. Coverage. Pass Rush. Run Stop. Seek and Destroy.


I have always wondered why Capers doesn't give guys more chances to rush with their hands in the dirt. On obvious pass rushing situations, why not? Guys like Nick Perry and Mike Neal were very effective in college at doing that, but Capers almost never allows it to happen. I sometimes think Capers tries to fit players completely into his system rather than maximizing what talent players already have. In some ways, Capers is great at utilizing some talents (such as Charles Woodson), but not so much with others. I always thought it would make the most sense to let guys like Nick Perry focus on rushing the passer as a top priority, and then develop the all-around 3-4 line backer skills in time.

Perhaps players like Neal and Perry wouldn't be any more effective rushing the passer like they did in college than they are in Capers 3-4 system, but it is somewhat frustrating to not see them get a chance to prove it in games. I couldn't care less what "system" a team runs, I just want the defense to be effective. And a lot of that begins with an effective pass rush.
Offline nerdmann  
#116 Posted : Tuesday, November 12, 2013 9:36:47 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DoddPower Go to Quoted Post
I have always wondered why Capers doesn't give guys more chances to rush with their hands in the dirt. On obvious pass rushing situations, why not? Guys like Nick Perry and Mike Neal were very effective in college at doing that, but Capers almost never allows it to happen. I sometimes think Capers tries to fit players completely into his system rather than maximizing what talent players already have. In some ways, Capers is great at utilizing some talents (such as Charles Woodson), but not so much with others. I always thought it would make the most sense to let guys like Nick Perry focus on rushing the passer as a top priority, and then develop the all-around 3-4 line backer skills in time.

Perhaps players like Neal and Perry wouldn't be any more effective rushing the passer like they did in college than they are in Capers 3-4 system, but it is somewhat frustrating to not see them get a chance to prove it in games. I couldn't care less what "system" a team runs, I just want the defense to be effective. And a lot of that begins with an effective pass rush.


They have 4-3 personnel. Then they go and draft a 285 lb DE, for their 3-4.

lol
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Offline steveishere  
#117 Posted : Wednesday, November 13, 2013 6:57:36 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: nerdmann Go to Quoted Post
They have 4-3 personnel. Then they go and draft a 285 lb DE, for their 3-4.

lol


Same size as JJ Watt and Justin Smith... lol
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Offline play2win  
#118 Posted : Wednesday, November 13, 2013 7:34:32 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DoddPower Go to Quoted Post
I suppose a defensive line of Jolly, Raji, Pickett, and Wilson would hold the point of attack and "clog the middle" pretty well, but I don't they would really collapse the pocket much. That's not really their game, especially Jolly, Wilson, and Pickett. If that was the case, they'd all be better pass rushers. Raji certainly has the talent to push the pocket, at times, but is far too inconsistent to be relied upon. Jolly and Wilson may get a little push, occasionally, but overall they are just too slow and most offensive linemen could at least hold their ground against them, even if they can't really drive them back in the running game.

As I said, I think the end result of a combination of bigger offensive linemen would just result in even less pass rush than the Packers have. Dom has ran a 5 defensive line package in the past on obvious rushing downs, and it wasn't very effective, either.

In my opinion, the best thing for the Packers pass rush is to get Mathews and Perry close to healthy and for Daniels, Jones, and possibly Worthy to continue to develop. I'm all for trying different things though, so I'd love to see Dom give the big guys a chance, but I think there's a good reason why he doesn't. Ultimately, the Packers just need Rodgers back so that they can score more points, force teams into mostly passing, and then give CM3, Perry, Daniels, Jones, Raji, Neal, et al. as many chances as possible to rush the QB. I think the Packers would be in the top 15 or possibly even top 10 in sacks if that was the case.


We currently rank #11 in sacks in the NFL.
http://www.nfl.com/stats...fied=false&Submit=Go

AJ Hawk, MD Jennings, Brad Jones, Tramon Williams, Davon House, and Micah Hyde account for 9.5 of the 27 sacks registered by the Packers. Our secondary players account for 5.5 of those, led by Tramon with 2.5.

We've only had one sack from Neal and one from Jolly. 3 from Perry. 5 from Clay. Lattimore has a couple.

Datone looks to be coming on with 3. Daniels leads the DL with 4.5. Raji, Pick and Wilson 0s.

Seems like if they made getting to the QB more of a priority, we could really make some good things happen on the back end of our D by creating more INT opportunities. Something has to give here with regards to getting more pressure on the QB if we are to save this season. Hopefully, that happens in our front 7. Even better if we can accomplish that on the DL, who has accounted for just 8.5 of our 27 sacks.

http://www.packers.com/team/statistics.html
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Offline warhawk  
#119 Posted : Wednesday, November 13, 2013 7:35:40 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: texaspackerbacker Go to Quoted Post
We don't need no F'in fatties. By next season, we need Pickett to retire, Raji to sign with somebody else; Jolly to be NT in the base with Boyd maybe apprenticing at NT, with Daniels and D. Jones at the DE positions.

In passing situations, we need Daniels at NT with D. Jones and Neal either standing or in three-point, along with the 3-4 best LBs we can put on the field - Matthews and 2-3 question marks at this point, along with 4-5 DBs.

In extreme passing situations, take out Neal and/or 1-2 of the LBs, and use 5-6 DBs.

Have as many as 6 of those in any of the above situations positioned to rush the passer as needed.

We don't need to go to a base 4-3, and we don't need to get rid of Capers and his blitz packages.


I agree. What I don't like to see however, is our CB's that can cover releasing WR's to the DB's that do not pick them up and can't find the ball.
The big problem right now is that the pressure is not there without a healthy CM3 or Perry. If we had those guys out there at full strength it would make a huge difference. You add Daniels, Jones, and maybe another LB or CB at times and the QB starts hitting the dirt a whole lot more often.
Right now we don't have the five guys in there when they need them to get the QB off their game.

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Offline DarkaneRules  
#120 Posted : Wednesday, November 13, 2013 8:48:15 AM(UTC)
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It is almost scary how often I agree with you Mr. Warhawk. Keep preaching my friend!
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Offline nerdmann  
#121 Posted : Wednesday, November 13, 2013 9:18:59 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: warhawk Go to Quoted Post
I agree. What I don't like to see however, is our CB's that can cover releasing WR's to the DB's that do not pick them up and can't find the ball.
The big problem right now is that the pressure is not there without a healthy CM3 or Perry. If we had those guys out there at full strength it would make a huge difference. You add Daniels, Jones, and maybe another LB or CB at times and the QB starts hitting the dirt a whole lot more often.
Right now we don't have the five guys in there when they need them to get the QB off their game.



The pressure is what it is. Clay and Perry have been out, but Hawk, Datone and Mike Daniels have been picking up slack.

The last two games, the D has just fucking collapsed. Guys releasing uncovered deep. Keystone Kops with Burnett trying to get back into position and knocking a sure INT by Tramon into the WRs hands for a TD. Fuck that shit. Pull your heads out and get with the program, bitches.

Season's on the line.
“Winning is not a sometime thing, it is an all the time thing. You don't do things right once in a while…you do them right all the time.”
Offline DoddPower  
#122 Posted : Wednesday, November 13, 2013 9:42:44 AM(UTC)
DoddPower

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Originally Posted by: warhawk Go to Quoted Post
I agree. What I don't like to see however, is our CB's that can cover releasing WR's to the DB's that do not pick them up and can't find the ball.
The big problem right now is that the pressure is not there without a healthy CM3 or Perry. If we had those guys out there at full strength it would make a huge difference. You add Daniels, Jones, and maybe another LB or CB at times and the QB starts hitting the dirt a whole lot more often.
Right now we don't have the five guys in there when they need them to get the QB off their game.



Yeah, if this team can somehow squeak into the playoffs and be relatively healthy, I still think they are a serious threat. Barring further injuries, the defense should be relatively healthy, and the offense (with hopefully Cobb and Rodgers) should be back and in a rhythm. At this point, it's just a matter of if this team can scrape by to back into the playoffs or not.
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