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Offline MintBaconDrivel  
#1 Posted : Wednesday, December 4, 2013 6:12:54 AM(UTC)
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JSOnline wrote:
Green Bay — John Schneider worked for six seasons as the top personnel aide to Green Bay Packers general manager Ted Thompson. In that time, Schneider certainly learned the value of the NFL draft.

But when Schneider got his chance to run the Seattle Seahawks in 2010, he also took a broader approach to his job.

In the time since, Schneider has traded for running back Marshawn Lynch, defensive end Chris Clemons and wideout Percy Harvin. Schneider signed notable free agents such as defensive end Cliff Avril and cornerback Brandon Browner. And he's drafted extremely well, hitting home runs with players such as Russell Wilson, Earl Thomas and Russell Okung.

Seattle was 5-11 the season before Schneider assumed his general manager duties. Now, it has the NFC's best record.

John Dorsey served for two decades in Green Bay's scouting department. Then in January, he took the general manager job in Kansas City.



As of early November, Green Bay had a remarkable 50 players on its roster that had never played for another organization. At the time, Baltimore and Dallas were next with 41, while Atlanta and Miami had 40.
Delivering the latest and most important updates on the Green Bay Packers for your convenience.
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Offline wpr  
#2 Posted : Wednesday, December 4, 2013 6:32:13 AM(UTC)
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Quote:
In three of the last four seasons, Thompson hasn't signed an unrestricted free agent. And the last significant player Thompson acquired via trade was running back Ryan Grant in 2007.

Still, don't look for Thompson to deviate too far from the script he's used for nearly a decade now.

same story

It is not good to be too far to either extreme. You can't have a whole roster of free agents and trades and you can't have a roster that is exclusively your own players only. Someone out there is better than the 25th or 45th or 53rd player on your current roster.

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thanks Post received 1 applause.
Dulak on 12/4/2013(UTC)
Offline The_Green_Ninja  
#3 Posted : Wednesday, December 4, 2013 8:40:08 AM(UTC)
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The Seahawks are looking to win now. In 5 years they will be average and declining. The Packers will be good for the next 10 years. So which is better? I know that at some points there wont be a "super team" and thoes times are more than not in the current nfl. The packers will win again when, much like 2010, there isn't a super team. Just a team that's really good and will win
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Offline wpr  
#4 Posted : Wednesday, December 4, 2013 8:55:43 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: The_Green_Ninja Go to Quoted Post
The Seahawks are looking to win now. In 5 years they will be average and declining. The Packers will be good for the next 10 years. So which is better? I know that at some points there wont be a "super team" and thoes times are more than not in the current nfl. The packers will win again when, much like 2010, there isn't a super team. Just a team that's really good and will win


Win now. Who knows what will happen 5 years from now. GB could get 3 7th round picks that turn into Hofers. Their first round pick for the next 5 years could have problems of one kind or another.

All we have is today. GB needs to put the best team they can out on the field this year. I hope you realize I am not saying max out the salary cap so they have no flexibility to do anything next year.

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Offline texaspackerbacker  
#5 Posted : Wednesday, December 4, 2013 9:22:15 AM(UTC)
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The Packers had the extreme luxury of having the best QB in the league. Thus, they were able to fart around like some minor league team, developing players - from nothing to mediocre when successful, from nothing to nothing when the developing didn't go so well (McMillian for example).

This is NOT something to brag about. The injury to Rodgers exposed the fallacy of the whole thing, and the badness as a GM of the man behind it.

A little of that draft and develop thing is, of course, good, but relying on it almost 100% makes a team basically substandard - as the Packers have clearly been since Rodgers was injured.

The success of Schneider and Dorsey also highlights the fact that there is a better way.
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Online sschind  
#6 Posted : Wednesday, December 4, 2013 9:59:01 AM(UTC)
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I'ts interesting to see the way Schneider and Dorsey have gone and if McKenzie can last a few years in Oakland it will give another glimpse of the D&D vs trade and FA debate. Most telling to me is that the trade and FA seems to be bearing more fruit right now with Seattle success and the recent rise of KC (we will see if KC continues to rise) and the Packers recent woes. (I said recent so don't bring up the SB in 2010. Keep in mind TTs two biggest FA acquisitions Pickett and Woodson had a lot to do with that as well)

We have all seen the way the assistant web get cast among coaches. The first I was ever really made aware of it was with Bill Walsh. It seemed like every third coach in the NFL had direct ties to Walsh for a while. Then it was Mike Holmgren and then it was Bill Parcels. This is the first time I am really aware of it in the upper management rankings however. Obviously a lot of that is because how many of us can name the GM of more than 4 or 5 teams at most. We just don't have the daily exposure to them as we do the coaches unless we seek the information out. Still its interesting to see how former Packer scouts and directors approach their jobs now they are the top dogs. Like I said earlier it is very interesting to see that, at least for now, they have seemed to stray from the masters teachings. (Note I use the term master in relation to their former boss and not to imply Thompson is a master GM)

Who knows, maybe once they reach that golden point they will fall into the D&D mode. I do think FA and trading is a way to build your team quicker as long as you are smart about it. That means not signing hyped up players that have played one good year out of 4 but rather looking for steady to rising players that are more affordable (think Moneyball) with potential to be reached. I am not convinced it is the best way to develop your team for he long haul if you continue with that as your main strategy. For that I think D&D is best for the main part of the plan. Notice I said main part.

Like many things is not wise to put all your eggs in one basket. Sometimes it may be better to sign that 2nd or even third tier FA DB than to trade down and take a safety in the 6th and 7th round. If you have the confidence in your staff to develop those rookies why wouldn't you have the confidence in them to bring out the best in that FA who has been a very good nickle back and part time starter for another team for the last three years.

I do think that if there is a FA out there that Ted Thompson thinks will help the team and not hamper future negotiations by tying up money he will get him. If Ted Thompson sees a guy that he has to have I think he will find a way to get him. Some people act as if he has a "NEVER EVER sign a free agent" code of conduct and that is simply not true. He just has a much stricter or at least much different, set of conditions that must be met to make a FA acquisition the right move. There just hasn't been that guy that he has to have.
I respect your right to have your opinion but that doesn't mean I agree with it or respect you for having it.
thanks Post received 2 applause.
play2win on 12/4/2013(UTC), wpr on 12/4/2013(UTC)
Offline QCHuskerFan  
#7 Posted : Wednesday, December 4, 2013 10:04:28 AM(UTC)
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No doubt. There is no one smarter than the Seahawks. They signed Percy Harvin! Brilliant move! 14M guaranteed! They are so smart! Rumor has it he may play this year... Maybe. But maybe never.

Schneider took over a team that was 7-9 in 2010. Of course he had holes to fill. So he signs Free Agents. Comparing what he did with a 7-9 team and what Ted Thompson has done with a team that has been a Super Bowl pick each of the last 3 years is apples and oranges.

Seattle's biggest advantage is they are paying their 'franchise QB' less than a million a year. They have more money to pay to buy miracle cures. In 2 years, they will hit Cap Hades when they look to give Wilson 20M a year. But for now, it's easy to think they have all the answers.

The Seahawks have won nothing yet. Remember how many SB's are won by going 15-1 in the regular season?

How many teams survive the loss of their 'Franchise QB' to injury? How'd it work for the Colts in 2011? 2013- Schaub fell apart and the Texans are going to #1 pick? Bears are 4-2 with a Healthy Cutler and 2-4 without. Washington 2012- Healthy QB & 10-6. 2013- Recovering QB and 3-9. Yes, the Patriots did it when Brady went down. But how often does that happen?

10-6 Super Bowl Champs
15-1
11-5
Arguing the system doesn't work, when faced with the above 3 year record, is just foolish.

Think the Broncos are 10-2 with Zac Dysert or Brock Osweiler at QB? They have a combined 2 years of experience sitting on a NFL bench. Think the Seahawks are going 11-1 with Tarvaris Jackson at QB?
thanks Post received 1 applause.
buckeyepackfan on 12/4/2013(UTC)
Offline texaspackerbacker  
#8 Posted : Wednesday, December 4, 2013 10:39:29 AM(UTC)
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You can find flaws in the apparent success of teams doing it differently, but the most relevant thing is the colossal mess the Packers are in right now in terms of widespread mediocrity which has led to a weak and losing team once the key jenga piece was removed.

Nobody is saying (at least I'm not saying) go wild in the free agent or trade market. I'd just like to see better players drafted - maybe some trading up instead of always down. The one time I can remember we did that, we got Clay Matthews. I don't know if it was predictable or not that guys like Raji, J. Harrell, Sherrod, Perry, probably even Bulaga would not perform like first rounders, but I can say, a lot of other teams have gotten a lot of better players with no better draft position than the Packers.

What is the opposite of draft and develop? Not free agency and trades. The opposite is drafting guys with track records of high performance in college - obviously Rodgers and Matthews, but also Nelson, Cobb, Lacy. It was predictable that those guys would succeed. Look at the positions of weakness on this team - a bunch of unknowns for the most part who were either drafted or signed, and if they developed at all, they leveled off at mediocrity.
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Offline wpr  
#9 Posted : Wednesday, December 4, 2013 10:56:47 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: sschind Go to Quoted Post
I'ts interesting to see the way Schneider and Dorsey have gone and if McKenzie can last a few years in Oakland it will give another glimpse of the D&D vs trade and FA debate. Most telling to me is that the trade and FA seems to be bearing more fruit right now with Seattle success and the recent rise of KC (we will see if KC continues to rise) and the Packers recent woes. (I said recent so don't bring up the SB in 2010. Keep in mind TTs two biggest FA acquisitions Pickett and Woodson had a lot to do with that as well)

We have all seen the way the assistant web get cast among coaches. The first I was ever really made aware of it was with Bill Walsh. It seemed like every third coach in the NFL had direct ties to Walsh for a while. Then it was Mike Holmgren and then it was Bill Parcels. This is the first time I am really aware of it in the upper management rankings however. Obviously a lot of that is because how many of us can name the GM of more than 4 or 5 teams at most. We just don't have the daily exposure to them as we do the coaches unless we seek the information out. Still its interesting to see how former Packer scouts and directors approach their jobs now they are the top dogs. Like I said earlier it is very interesting to see that, at least for now, they have seemed to stray from the masters teachings. (Note I use the term master in relation to their former boss and not to imply Thompson is a master GM)

Who knows, maybe once they reach that golden point they will fall into the D&D mode. I do think FA and trading is a way to build your team quicker as long as you are smart about it. That means not signing hyped up players that have played one good year out of 4 but rather looking for steady to rising players that are more affordable (think Moneyball) with potential to be reached. I am not convinced it is the best way to develop your team for he long haul if you continue with that as your main strategy. For that I think D&D is best for the main part of the plan. Notice I said main part.

Like many things is not wise to put all your eggs in one basket. Sometimes it may be better to sign that 2nd or even third tier FA DB than to trade down and take a safety in the 6th and 7th round. If you have the confidence in your staff to develop those rookies why wouldn't you have the confidence in them to bring out the best in that FA who has been a very good nickle back and part time starter for another team for the last three years.

I do think that if there is a FA out there that Ted Thompson thinks will help the team and not hamper future negotiations by tying up money he will get him. If Ted Thompson sees a guy that he has to have I think he will find a way to get him. Some people act as if he has a "NEVER EVER sign a free agent" code of conduct and that is simply not true. He just has a much stricter or at least much different, set of conditions that must be met to make a FA acquisition the right move. There just hasn't been that guy that he has to have.


nice post. I don't know if anyone thinks that I say Ted will never ever grab a FA. I don't mean to imply that. But with 50 players on the team who have not played elsewhere he is extremely reluctant. I look for a little moderation. Just a FA or 2 every 2-3 years. Not the break the bank guys. they almost never pan out at least not over their full contract. These the guys who can start or be the first back up while the younger players actually have time to develop. The hype on players tends to come from fans and media. I doubt any GM worth his salt ever is swayed by the mindless rabble.

QCHusker- Selecting FAs which is what Ted did in the first few years helped get GB to the SB. Moving away from it has not helped them get back there. A few more quality players at key positions would make a huge difference in this team even without Aaron. They don't have them. They have a bunch of kids with little or no experience trying to make the jump from NCAA to NFL and they are struggling.

I love how people who never want GB to pick up a FA always go for the highest profile players at the highest price in order to try and prove a point. In doing so you prove that you are not listening (or reading) what others are saying (or typing) The majority of people on this site at least that would like to see FA acquisitions that are 2nd tier even 3rd tier players. They won't put GB ion a financial bind and they can certainly add to the overall strength of the team.

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Offline Zero2Cool  
#10 Posted : Wednesday, December 4, 2013 11:23:10 AM(UTC)
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What Free Agents could the Packers have signed that would have made a difference? I can't recall anyone worth their signed salary that would have contributed much if at all.
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Offline QCHuskerFan  
#11 Posted : Wednesday, December 4, 2013 11:31:02 AM(UTC)
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Packers were 5-2 when Rodgers got hurt. They have gone 0-4-1 since. If he had not been injured, I am predicting they would have gone 3-2 or 4-1, making them 8-4 or 9-3. Which would have them in 1st place in the North with a probable 2 or 3 game lead. Homefield to start the playoffs.

So they would have the 2nd or 3rd best record in the NFC. Doesn't sound like a colossal mess to me.

Of course Rodgers covers up flaws. He is the best player (Top 3 anyway) in the NFL. That's what he does. That's what an elite player does. Think of any elite player in sports. Can you name more than 2 of Jordan's teammates? What about the 1980's Lakers? There was Magic and Kareem and... Gretzky's line mates were? Who played DL for the Niners when they won Super Bowls behind Montana?

Draft good players is the opposite of draft and develop? This may be the dumbest thing I've heard. I guess Ted Thompson should just draft Clowney in the 7th round, Lewan in the 6th, Clinton Dix in the 5th, Richardson in the 4th, Barr and Matthews in the 3rd, Watkins in the 2nd and whoever falls to us in the 1st. Wow. Never thought of this strategy. Huh. Just draft the best players. Stop the presses!

Predictable that Lacy would succeed? Based on what? The previous 2 RB's from AL drafted in the first round in the last couple years? Trent Richardson and, um, oh yeah, Mark Ingram. Ingram has 1,350 yards in his 3 year NFL career. Richardson has 1,361 in almost 2 years. Not exactly setting a high standard for AL backs.

"a lot of other teams have gotten a lot of better players with no better draft position than the Packers." Prove it. In the last 5 years, the Packers average the #24 pick. So show me the teams that pick in the bottom 3rd of the draft that find a 'lot of better players'. Not just a first round pick here or there. You said a lot of players. And a lot of teams. I'll be waiting.
Offline Laser Gunns  
#12 Posted : Wednesday, December 4, 2013 11:32:41 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: The_Green_Ninja Go to Quoted Post
The Seahawks are looking to win now. In 5 years they will be average and declining. The Packers will be good for the next 10 years. So which is better? I know that at some points there wont be a "super team" and thoes times are more than not in the current nfl. The packers will win again when, much like 2010, there isn't a super team. Just a team that's really good and will win


Seattle has drafted a lot better than GB recently.

They overturned that whole roster when Pete got there.

It's not just Russell Wilson they have on the cheap, Sherman and others too.

THATS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU DRAFT WELL

And ya know what? Players will leave, and cheap players will continue to come it because Jon is better than Ted.

Message modified by user Wednesday, December 4, 2013 11:44:20 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified



MintBaconDrivel

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Offline steveishere  
#13 Posted : Wednesday, December 4, 2013 11:47:31 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: RajiRoar Go to Quoted Post
Seattle has drafted a lot better than GB recently.

They overturned that whole roster when Pete got there.

It's not just Russell Wilson they have on the cheap, Sherman and others too.

THATS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU DRAFT WELL

And ya know what? Players will leave, and cheap players will continue to come it because Jon is better than Ted.


A lot better is kind of a stretch. They got a couple really good guys but most of their last three drafts arent really doing much.
Offline QCHuskerFan  
#14 Posted : Wednesday, December 4, 2013 11:56:02 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: wpr Go to Quoted Post

QCHusker- Selecting FAs which is what Ted did in the first few years helped get GB to the SB. Moving away from it has not helped them get back there. A few more quality players at key positions would make a huge difference in this team even without Aaron. They don't have them. They have a bunch of kids with little or no experience trying to make the jump from NCAA to NFL and they are struggling.

I love how people who never want GB to pick up a FA always go for the highest profile players at the highest price in order to try and prove a point. In doing so you prove that you are not listening (or reading) what others are saying (or typing) The majority of people on this site at least that would like to see FA acquisitions that are 2nd tier even 3rd tier players. They won't put GB ion a financial bind and they can certainly add to the overall strength of the team.


In 2013, Ted Thompson has signed the following 2nd and 3rd tier FA:
Tavecchio
Means
Mulligan
Cunningham
Young
Wilson
Wallace
Harper
Banjo
And several others that I didn't even recognize. And there were others such as Flynn and Bell that I left off due to the circumstances. The fact that most of these players did not contribute doesn't mean Ted Thompson isn't signing FA. They just represent your 2nd & 3rd tier players that are available.

In 2013, Ted Thompson brought in 2 different FA kickers (Tavecchio and Ramirez) to compete with/ inspire Crosby. Don't say he doesn't sign FA. It's just not true. He just hasn't signed the ones that will win the SB single handed.

In 2012, Ted Thompson signed Saturday and Benson. They were probably upper level 2nd tier. How'd that work out?
thanks Post received 1 applause.
wpr on 12/4/2013(UTC)
Offline Laser Gunns  
#15 Posted : Wednesday, December 4, 2013 12:05:19 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: steveishere Go to Quoted Post
A lot better is kind of a stretch. They got a couple really good guys but most of their last three drafts arent really doing much.


Uhh

2010: Russell Okung
Earl Thomas
Kam Chancellor


2011: Richard Sherman (best corner in the league)
Malcom Smith
KJ Wright

2012: Bruce Irvin
Bobby Wagner (could have been DROY over kuechly)
Russell Wilson
Robert Turbine (fantasy owners keep an eye on this guy for when he replaces Lynch)
JR Sweezy (now an OG)


These are just the guys I know off the top of my head.


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