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Offline texaspackerbacker  
#1 Posted : Wednesday, December 11, 2013 11:30:06 AM(UTC)
texaspackerbacker

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Seems like somebody brought this up in the Obamacare thread as a prime cause for whatever might be wrong with the country. I guess that could be taken several different ways. Being a counter-puncher, I'll just throw this out like a jump ball, and then wait to comment on what whoever might say.
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Offline Wade  
#2 Posted : Wednesday, December 11, 2013 11:50:08 AM(UTC)
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I also am waiting on this one. My feelings are so strong and complex I need to take my time or I become even crankier ("even more of a crank"?) than normal.

Plus, I expect my tendency to long posts will get quickly and completely out of control.

Wanna Box?
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
Offline Pack93z  
#3 Posted : Wednesday, December 11, 2013 12:04:48 PM(UTC)
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Very briefly and in summary..

If you just follow the curriculum of a institution, I would say it probably is on the weak side and on a very narrow band. That said, there are select teachers/profs in each that are not lazy and just putting in the time that break that norm, too few and far between.

But also to be stated, it depends on the "student" as well.. you can do the minimum and not challenge what is being taught, receive a diploma and move on. Or you can take the seeds planted in the classroom, look at it from all angles, expand upon it and truly broaden your education, mind and thought process.

However, just as it is not the norm to have teachers that truly wish to lead the learning, the norm for the students is to do the minimum and follow along the path being paved.

Basically.. the problem is not just the institution.. it is the mind set of the student as well.

We want to sugar coat everything for ease, speed and to not look at the reality of life. We want to assume that every student can fit into the same parameters in what they should be taught and what they can handle.

Elementary through High school to me is to restrictive currently.. it gets better at the college level in terms of allowing the student to determine their own structure.. but only to a point. From my experience, the instructor base at the college level is even weaker overall than the prep ranks.

I think when there's enough will and aggression, there's no shortage of talent either.

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DoddPower on 12/13/2013(UTC)
Offline Zero2Cool  
#4 Posted : Thursday, December 12, 2013 12:13:57 PM(UTC)
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If you had this in Random Babble, I'd be more inclined to jump in, but since you put it here, I can only assume you want to get nasty.
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thanks Post received 2 applause.
4PackGirl on 12/12/2013(UTC), DoddPower on 12/13/2013(UTC)
Offline 4PackGirl  
#5 Posted : Thursday, December 12, 2013 12:42:40 PM(UTC)
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since I have two children in public schools at this time, I'd be happy to comment on this. the educational system we currently have "core curriculum" is a bloody joke!! if you've never heard of it, look it up. a whole lot of busy work with not much learning in return, would be my quick summary. all the schools care about is how the kids do on their ISAT tests. it's ridiculous. when I can't help my 5th graders with their math homework because they are doing something called 'butterfly math' which I have NEVER heard of, something is wrong. I showed them how I learned these types of math equations & they look at me like I'm a freakin moron!! when they actually sit down & watch me do it, they say how much easier it is the way I do it. DUH!! add into that the "mainstreaming" idea & every day is insanity for the kids in the classroom (also the teachers). i honestly feel sorry for the kids who have been mainstreamed & so do my kids. they both have a couple in each of their classes & they say those kids can't keep up, sometimes freak out & start tearing up their papers, throwing their books, & screaming. it's insane!! these types of things happen nearly every day in class.

guess what?? some kids should NOT be in a classroom setting - PERIOD!!!! it is doing none of the kids ANY good at all. the teachers are so overwhelmed dealing with all of this crap, they have a hard time connecting with their students. i can count on one hand the number of parents i see at class parties. it's sad. in my opinion, it's a problem with parents, students, schools, AND the government.

ok, I'm off my soapbox now.
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Offline texaspackerbacker  
#6 Posted : Thursday, December 12, 2013 2:27:58 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool Go to Quoted Post
If you had this in Random Babble, I'd be more inclined to jump in, but since you put it here, I can only assume you want to get nasty.


I never really thought of it that way. I'm fine with you switching it if you want to.

Anyway, as you know, I'm not the one who makes things nasty hahaha.

I was especially wanting to hear your take on this, given your hinting in the other thread that you had a strong opinion.

Expressing the Good Normal Views of Good Normal Americans.
If Anything I Say Smacks of Extremism, Please Tell Me EXACTLY What.
Offline texaspackerbacker  
#7 Posted : Thursday, December 12, 2013 2:58:37 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: 4PackGirl Go to Quoted Post
since I have two children in public schools at this time, I'd be happy to comment on this. the educational system we currently have "core curriculum" is a bloody joke!! if you've never heard of it, look it up. a whole lot of busy work with not much learning in return, would be my quick summary. all the schools care about is how the kids do on their ISAT tests. it's ridiculous. when I can't help my 5th graders with their math homework because they are doing something called 'butterfly math' which I have NEVER heard of, something is wrong. I showed them how I learned these types of math equations & they look at me like I'm a freakin moron!! when they actually sit down & watch me do it, they say how much easier it is the way I do it. DUH!! add into that the "mainstreaming" idea & every day is insanity for the kids in the classroom (also the teachers). i honestly feel sorry for the kids who have been mainstreamed & so do my kids. they both have a couple in each of their classes & they say those kids can't keep up, sometimes freak out & start tearing up their papers, throwing their books, & screaming. it's insane!! these types of things happen nearly every day in class.

guess what?? some kids should NOT be in a classroom setting - PERIOD!!!! it is doing none of the kids ANY good at all. the teachers are so overwhelmed dealing with all of this crap, they have a hard time connecting with their students. i can count on one hand the number of parents i see at class parties. it's sad. in my opinion, it's a problem with parents, students, schools, AND the government.

ok, I'm off my soapbox now.


I don't disagree with a word you say. I would just ask two things: who do you blame for the situation? and what would you suggest to do about it?

My take on that is the same people pushing what you don't like are the ones pushing a lot of the things that liberals (not necessarily you because I don't really know your views) push in other areas that IMO are harming the country in other ways.

Expressing the Good Normal Views of Good Normal Americans.
If Anything I Say Smacks of Extremism, Please Tell Me EXACTLY What.
Offline dhazer  
#8 Posted : Thursday, December 12, 2013 3:09:27 PM(UTC)
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I dont have kids in school so the closest I can do is when I went back to college a few years ago and how much of a joke it was. The structures they have in place is a damn joke, The professors would actually tell you the answers that would be on the tests or they would sit down and actually go step by step on the home work so the grades were up there. Here is a great example, I got a degree in computer support and we had 20 people in class and they all graduated with a B or higher. But yet they all call me and one other guy and ask how to fix their computers. Also it was so embarrassing when I would ask these kids what certain days were like Dec 7th 1941 and they would have no idea. Now that brings the question "What the hell are they teaching these kids in elementary and High School? I read some articles that say that some schools actually was having kids change the constitution, And these kids had no Idea what was even in it?

Also what the hell is this bullsh*t "don't leave a kid behind bill?" If the kid can't pass a grade he shouldn't be pushed on to the next grade.

I actually feel sorry for some teachers and professors because their hands are tied with all the rules and regulations.



UserPostedImage

Just Imagine this for the next 6-9 years. What a ride it will be :)
thanks Post received 1 applause.
Cheesey on 12/20/2013(UTC)
Offline 4PackGirl  
#9 Posted : Friday, December 13, 2013 4:18:03 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: texaspackerbacker Go to Quoted Post
I don't disagree with a word you say. I would just ask two things: who do you blame for the situation? and what would you suggest to do about it?

My take on that is the same people pushing what you don't like are the ones pushing a lot of the things that liberals (not necessarily you because I don't really know your views) push in other areas that IMO are harming the country in other ways.



I would put education issues back in the hands of educators & OUT of the hands of politicians.
I would force the politicians to put lottery monies where it was supposed to go - the EDUCATION fund!!
I would make sure each school has a counselor (with all that lottery money - why not?)
Standardized testing would NOT be used to determine funding to schools.
I would hold each school accountable for the education of their students, allowing them a broadened educational vision to help those kids who are troubled instead of just passing them on to the next year. (yes this absolutely DOES go on - I've seen it with many kids)

those are just a few ideas off the top of my head.


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Offline texaspackerbacker  
#10 Posted : Friday, December 13, 2013 12:56:13 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: 4PackGirl Go to Quoted Post
I would put education issues back in the hands of educators & OUT of the hands of politicians.
I would force the politicians to put lottery monies where it was supposed to go - the EDUCATION fund!!
I would make sure each school has a counselor (with all that lottery money - why not?)
Standardized testing would NOT be used to determine funding to schools.
I would hold each school accountable for the education of their students, allowing them a broadened educational vision to help those kids who are troubled instead of just passing them on to the next year. (yes this absolutely DOES go on - I've seen it with many kids)

those are just a few ideas off the top of my head.



About the counselor thing, my daughter when she first started was a counselor floating between 4 or 5 school districts too small to afford their own - one way to accomplish that.

Your paragraph about holding each school accountable ..... sounds like an extension of what you said previously about mainstreaming. I'm with you on that, but be aware, those L people would consider your idea a step backward.

Do they use standardized testing that way up there? Here, it can affect a teacher's job status - probably taboo there with unions. I'm conflicted on the testing. I used to teach, and there really is a lot of "teaching to the test" - probably not a good thing. On the other hand, some teachers would probably depart even more than now from teaching solid objective material that would prepare the students.

Saving your first idea for last, what do you mean by "educators"? If you get to the level where most curriculum decisions are made, the "educators" really are politicians of a sort. Down here, even local superintendents - who might be considered "educators" - are often way out of touch with parents and individual teachers. (In other words, they are L people hahaha). Whether I'm for or against putting education issues in the hands of the teachers, I guess, kinda depends on the teacher. At best you would get inconsistency - some would really mess up in terms of teaching good old fashioned nuts and bolts stuff.

My view, as a short time teacher and long time substitute always was, the main thing wrong with schools is the students - and that's a product of homes and families and the culture in general. So much time and effort is taken up controlling the bad ones that the good students don't get properly taught. It really only takes 3 or 4 students out of a class of 25 or so to really mess things up. The few classes fortunate enough to not have those discipline problems really sail along with good learning regardless of curriculum because there is plenty of time for everything.

My solution - which nobody in the educational community seems to like hahahaha - is something I experienced as a long term sub in what they used to call "reform school" - now whatever euphemism they give it. There was a "disciplinary aide" in each classroom along with the teacher, who sat in the back with a checklist - noting any violations, enough of which would cost the student a day - like "good time" in prisons. I was told, "Oh no, discipline is the teacher's job. Aides just don't do that". Well, they damn well should hahaha. I had this big retired army guy as my disciplinary aide, and with his iron hand (not literally - I'm not advocating return to corporal punishment), I had even those hard core kids who were there because they messed up in their regular school learning. One hour a day, he got to teach "character guidance" and I sat in the back with the clipboard. Do THAT in every classroom, and you will have some decent learning.
Expressing the Good Normal Views of Good Normal Americans.
If Anything I Say Smacks of Extremism, Please Tell Me EXACTLY What.
Offline Wade  
#11 Posted : Friday, December 13, 2013 1:35:21 PM(UTC)
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Some provocative, even anarchic, suggestions:

Part I: Take the government out of it as much as possible. This means:
1. Eliminate all state and federal departments of "Education," "Public Instruction," etc.
2. Eliminate all federal funding of education.
3. Eliminate all existing federal and state laws/regulations that dictate what schools, teachers, and students must do other than #4,5,6 below.
4. Pass a Constitutional amendment that prohibits the Federal Government from interfering in education other than to protect other constitutional rights.

Part II: Make education a part of the real world, rather than a substitute for it.
5. Prohibit anyone from going to college unless they have had at least three years of full time "real world" experience via job, military, Peace Corps, etc.
6. Prohibit anyone from teaching college students unless they have had at least five years of such full-time experience and have at least one "practical" skill (welding, plumbing, carpentry, computer repair, cattle care and feeding, etc.
7. Prohibit anyone from teaching secondary school who has not taken at least a year of college-level math, a year of college-level history, an accounting course, and who cannot converse in an everyday way in at least two languages.

And, part III:

8. Eliminate compulsory public education. Period.
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
Offline dhazer  
#12 Posted : Friday, December 13, 2013 3:52:22 PM(UTC)
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Wade do you see what they use as basic math in college? I had to take a class and it was like 6th grade math. Seriously they were teaching addition, subtraction, multiplication and division. They had very basic alegbra. The worst part of it all was that these kids just coming from high school were lost because they couldn't use a calculator. It was embarrassing seeing the future leaders of our community not be able to figure out how to add or subtract without a calculator.
UserPostedImage

Just Imagine this for the next 6-9 years. What a ride it will be :)
thanks Post received 1 applause.
DakotaT on 12/20/2013(UTC)
Offline texaspackerbacker  
#13 Posted : Friday, December 13, 2013 5:30:32 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: dhazer Go to Quoted Post
Wade do you see what they use as basic math in college? I had to take a class and it was like 6th grade math. Seriously they were teaching addition, subtraction, multiplication and division. They had very basic alegbra. The worst part of it all was that these kids just coming from high school were lost because they couldn't use a calculator. It was embarrassing seeing the future leaders of our community not be able to figure out how to add or subtract without a calculator.


Aaah one of my other pet peeves - teaching the use of calculators instead of the nuts and bolts of basic math.

I taught my oldest daughter math up through multiple digit multiplication and long division before she ever entered kindergarten; She also was reading at a 4th grade level before kindergarten.

Both teaching my own kids and as a long term substitute, I taught kids algebra and geometry more effectively than anybody else around. Yet I could never be a math teacher because you have to pass some huge total of higher level math. I hit a ceiling at first year calculus and just couldn't handle those - something about when it left the concrete and became too theoretical. Oh well!

Expressing the Good Normal Views of Good Normal Americans.
If Anything I Say Smacks of Extremism, Please Tell Me EXACTLY What.
Offline texaspackerbacker  
#14 Posted : Friday, December 13, 2013 5:58:10 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Wade Go to Quoted Post
Some provocative, even anarchic, suggestions:

Part I: Take the government out of it as much as possible. This means:
1. Eliminate all state and federal departments of "Education," "Public Instruction," etc.
2. Eliminate all federal funding of education.
3. Eliminate all existing federal and state laws/regulations that dictate what schools, teachers, and students must do other than #4,5,6 below.
4. Pass a Constitutional amendment that prohibits the Federal Government from interfering in education other than to protect other constitutional rights.

Part II: Make education a part of the real world, rather than a substitute for it.
5. Prohibit anyone from going to college unless they have had at least three years of full time "real world" experience via job, military, Peace Corps, etc.
6. Prohibit anyone from teaching college students unless they have had at least five years of such full-time experience and have at least one "practical" skill (welding, plumbing, carpentry, computer repair, cattle care and feeding, etc.
7. Prohibit anyone from teaching secondary school who has not taken at least a year of college-level math, a year of college-level history, an accounting course, and who cannot converse in an everyday way in at least two languages.

And, part III:

8. Eliminate compulsory public education. Period.


Wade, when you start using the word "prohibit", you leap the chasm big-time from "anarchic" to intrusive government.

A lot of the quite radical stuff you say sounds good to me - including your bottom line. So much CRAP is taught nowadays that requiring it is almost laughable. On the other hand, you have the babysitting element. A LOT of kids without permission and only slightly less kids with parental permission would take you up on that fantastic offer - "you mean I can skip school and they won't come and get me?" Where are they gonna be? On the street making trouble? flooding the job market? entering the judicial system instead of the educational system?

As much as I value and respect that "real world" stuff you mentioned, I think it isn't necessary to being a good teacher. Having a lot more emphasis and availability of skilled trades learning/vocational courses would be a good idea, though - and NOT making nearly as much academic stuff required to get into those. Somebody once said, a good teacher can read the book one day ahead of the students, and teach them just fine. As a substitute teacher, I literally did that a few times.

My first year of Debate in high school, Federal Aid to Education - which was just beginning then - was the topic. As is the custom in competitive debating, I learned to argue both sides of the question. Bottom line: yeah, we would be better off without it, but the powers that be would just get to the same places by a different route - no significant difference, at least not the great majority of locations around the country.

I agree with your #7 except the foreign language thing - superfluous IMO.

Most of your ideas remind me of the old thing I advocated even before H. Ross Perot advocated something similar: conducting legislation entirely by referendum - his computer terminal idea would have made it doable, but ...... THEN who has all the power - once the legislating politicians are eliminated? The God damned news media - also the answer to the question, what's the only thing rottener than politicians? Making education more down-to-earth and in the hands of regular people would mostly just empower a new class of influence peddlers who just might be more insidious than the current ones - better the devil you know ......
Expressing the Good Normal Views of Good Normal Americans.
If Anything I Say Smacks of Extremism, Please Tell Me EXACTLY What.
Offline Wade  
#15 Posted : Friday, December 13, 2013 9:30:59 PM(UTC)
Wade

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Originally Posted by: dhazer Go to Quoted Post
Wade do you see what they use as basic math in college? I had to take a class and it was like 6th grade math. Seriously they were teaching addition, subtraction, multiplication and division. They had very basic alegbra. The worst part of it all was that these kids just coming from high school were lost because they couldn't use a calculator. It was embarrassing seeing the future leaders of our community not be able to figure out how to add or subtract without a calculator.


Ah...I should have said "a year of calculus." :)
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
 
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