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Offline wpr  
#1 Posted : Sunday, January 19, 2014 1:19:01 PM(UTC)
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LombardiAve wrote:
Whether it was actually the chicken or the egg that came first is the question that has perplexed the greatest scholars — including us who follow the Green Bay Packers. All kidding aside, and now that the Packers' season is finished,  I am perplexed with a very similar question regarding the defense. Is the
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Offline DakotaT  
#2 Posted : Sunday, January 19, 2014 1:37:51 PM(UTC)
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We've been over this enough haven't we? 1st mistake was going into the season without addressing the safety position, 2nd mistake was relying on Pickett and Raji to anchor down the d-line, third problem was something you can't prepare for - Matthews injury and other guys' injuries, and in my opinion the fourth mistake is never making any coaching changes. These guys for some reason have job security under TT/MM. Can anyone make a case for Trgvac (sp) still having a job after the epic failure that is BJ Raji? I mean we are talking about a physical freak of nature that was allowed to become a walking pile of shit as a football player. That is unacceptable in my opinion. Should Perry, our safety coach still have a job? Yeah, losing Collins really hurt, but he's paid to bring along whatever talent we have, and I'm sorry but Morgan Burnett regressed this season and M.D. Jennings shouldn't even be wearing a professional football jersey.

We have a lot of problems on our defense, and they were exposed pretty badly this season. But the silver lining is that we seem to have found a power running game - which will become our 12th man on defense in the future.

Message modified by user Sunday, January 19, 2014 3:18:10 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Offline Zero2Cool  
#3 Posted : Sunday, January 19, 2014 1:40:39 PM(UTC)
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Ted Thompson. He failed to sign big name free agents that would solidify depth on defense. No more excuses.
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Offline RaiderPride  
#4 Posted : Sunday, January 19, 2014 1:44:04 PM(UTC)
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Right where the buck stops... That is where the blame lays.

I love Ted.

But the fact is he is responsible for it all.
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Offline coltonja  
#5 Posted : Sunday, January 19, 2014 2:29:51 PM(UTC)
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I definitely agree with you guys in saying the blame has to begin and end with Thompson. Although Dom's scheme is not the greatest in the league and may falter even with better talent, the fact of the matter is we don't stack up with the likes of the '9ers or Seahawks.

Our mlb's are not playmakers, both safety positions did not produce(as we have discussed a lot here) and we had absolutely nothing most of the season with olb's. Some of that was due to injury, sure. But the depth of talent we have is incredibly lacking. I love our CB's, even though I felt they had a down year. We need some attitude and dudes that will lay the wood- I'm so desperate I will even take a dirty defense- somebody just hit someone!
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Online texaspackerbacker  
#6 Posted : Sunday, January 19, 2014 2:37:33 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DakotaT Go to Quoted Post
We've been over this enough haven't we? 1st mistake was going into the season without addressing the safety position, 2nd mistake was relying on Pickett and Raji to anchor down the d-line, third problem was something you can't prepare for - Matthews injury and other guys' injuries, and in my opinion the fourth mistake is never making any coaching changes. These guys for some reason have job security under TT/MM. Can anyone make a case for Trgvac (sp) still having a job after the epic failure that is BJ Raji? I mean we are talking about a physical freak of nature that was allowed to become a walking pile of shit as a football player. That is unacceptable in my opinion. Should Perry, our safety coach still have a job? Yeah, losing Collins really hurt, but he's paid to bring along whatever talent we have, and I'm sorry but Morgan Burnett regressed this season and M.D. Jennings shouldn't even be wearing a professional football jersey.

We have a lot of problems on our defense, and they were exposed pretty badly this season. But the silver lining is that we seem to have found a power running game - which will become our 10th man on defense in the future.



Good Analysis. When you stick to football, you actually have a lick of sense.

The article was pretty fair and balanced, but it left out the factor of position coaches, as well as the non-injured players who failed so miserably. Of course, Thompson deserves a lot of blame. However, going all in on big name free agents isn't the complete answer either. Drafting better is as much or more needed. As for Capers, most of his critics have it all wrong. It'[s NOT his schemes and strategies. They kept us close in difficult circumstances. The share of blame Capers gets is personnel - sticking with Raji and Pickett as starters at the top of the list. Also sitting Lattimore in favor of Jones, and whatever might have been done at Safety - Hyde there or whatever.

10th man on Defense? You mean we have only been playing with nine hahahaha? That might explain things.
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Offline nerdmann  
#7 Posted : Sunday, January 19, 2014 3:00:06 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: coltonja Go to Quoted Post
I definitely agree with you guys in saying the blame has to begin and end with Thompson. Although Dom's scheme is not the greatest in the league and may falter even with better talent, the fact of the matter is we don't stack up with the likes of the '9ers or Seahawks.

Our mlb's are not playmakers, both safety positions did not produce(as we have discussed a lot here) and we had absolutely nothing most of the season with olb's. Some of that was due to injury, sure. But the depth of talent we have is incredibly lacking. I love our CB's, even though I felt they had a down year. We need some attitude and dudes that will lay the wood- I'm so desperate I will even take a dirty defense- somebody just hit someone!


Talent wise, we match up with any team in the league in all three phases.

PROBLEM: We can't keep them on the field. That last playoff game came down to THE LAST SECOND. Anyone doubt we win that game if we don't lose Shields AND Neal on the FIRST DRIVE? Now how about if you add Clay to the Mix.

Let's say we never lost Aaron, and we went 12-4. We're not even PLAYING that week. We're resting. How about Jermicheal Finley? Might have helped us out a bit, no?

And talk all you want about "not replacing Nick Collins." But the fact is, Ted GOT us Nick Collins. Once in a generation talent. What happened? Another sickening injury.
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Offline steveishere  
#8 Posted : Sunday, January 19, 2014 3:32:34 PM(UTC)
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A majority of the blame is injuries. So if you want to blame just 1 thing that would be it. It may not be a top 5 defense fully healthy but it would still be pretty good.
Offline cheeseheads123  
#9 Posted : Sunday, January 19, 2014 4:29:31 PM(UTC)
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Its tough when you add all these injures to this defense that has been in rebuilding mode since 11'.
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Offline TheKanataThrilla  
#10 Posted : Sunday, January 19, 2014 6:14:06 PM(UTC)
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To me it is a toss up, is it the lack of playmakers at safety or is it the lack of push of our DL? Both need a severe infusion of talent. To second Dakota's comment, how do some of these positional coaches still have a job? When a player like Raji regresses from a pro-bowl player to a waste of space (and not in a good way) where is the fire under his ass?
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Offline nerdmann  
#11 Posted : Sunday, January 19, 2014 7:11:31 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: TheKanataThrilla Go to Quoted Post
To me it is a toss up, is it the lack of playmakers at safety or is it the lack of push of our DL? Both need a severe infusion of talent. To second Dakota's comment, how do some of these positional coaches still have a job? When a player like Raji regresses from a pro-bowl player to a waste of space (and not in a good way) where is the fire under his ass?


It's an enigma. But I'll tell you something. The way this team reports injuries, we just don't fucking know. He could have a compound fracture for all we know, but maybe he's just trying to play through it.
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Offline buckeyepackfan  
#12 Posted : Sunday, January 19, 2014 8:43:03 PM(UTC)
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There's only 2 players top blame.

Aaron Rodgers and Clay Mathews.

These guys get the big bucks, then get hurt, now when ALMOST EVRYONE says The Packers only hope is to bring in veteran free agents, together they have handcuffed poor Ted Thompson, so he can't make a move even if he wanted.

Don't blame the guys who actually took the field every game, it's these candy-asses who can't stay healthy, especially the ones making the mega-bucks, that are the blame.

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Offline DakotaT  
#13 Posted : Sunday, January 19, 2014 8:55:18 PM(UTC)
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Come on Buckeye, even your rah rah ass has to admit Raji has been sucking ass pretty bad out there for two seasons. And I really thought we had a player in him, cause he played so well in our title run. What a disappointment.
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Offline beast  
#14 Posted : Sunday, January 19, 2014 10:58:57 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: nerdmann Go to Quoted Post
Talent wise, we match up with any team in the league in all three phases.

And talk all you want about "not replacing Nick Collins." But the fact is, Ted GOT us Nick Collins. Once in a generation talent. What happened? Another sickening injury.



I agree with the idea probably not expecting another Collins, but disagree with the defense matching up with all other teams in the NFL.

Might not expect Collins type, but we got to see something better than we saw from Raji, Brad Jones, Perry and M.D. Jennings...

I think questions NEED to be asked (inside the Packers) on why Raji and Perry aren't doing better... Raji looks like he wants to follow the ball with his eyes at times (which that's with in it's self isn't a bad thing) but ends up watching by standing up too high in his stance and loses or is in neutral (which is bad) and it looks like he's giving less effort. Perry... just seems like the game hasn't slowed down mentally for him yet and what he has to mentally read. He need to get that fixed...

And I've been a huge Pickett fan, at times he's been the run clogging glue that was the only thing keeping the DL from breaking as they tried to bend but not break... but he's not getting any younger and he ether lost a step this year or was hurt... I know he was banged up but with his age you also have to think possible lost a step in his lateral movement which has been a strong point for him.
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Offline wpr  
#15 Posted : Monday, January 20, 2014 6:40:16 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DakotaT Go to Quoted Post
We've been over this enough haven't we?


yea we have. It was a slow day with nothing much happening int he world of football Big Grin so I here we are.
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Offline Zero2Cool  
#16 Posted : Monday, January 20, 2014 6:54:34 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DakotaT Go to Quoted Post
We've been over this enough haven't we?


Certainly not because who has yet come up with a plausible answer that facilitates discussion towards a solution or resolution? Have you created such comment? No. Thus, we have not gone over it enough.

However, feel free to start another topic on another issue. We're waiting.



Meanwhile, the blame for the defense solely rests on Ted Thompson. I'm tired of the injuries excuse. Bring in men who are not soft and weak. Bring in men who can play hurt instead of whining about a damn thumb injury. Man up or go play baseball.
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Offline play2win  
#17 Posted : Monday, January 20, 2014 7:06:01 AM(UTC)
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The stupid part of this entire discussion is the implied premise that one person or aspect of this team is at fault.

There is plenty of blame to go around. Ted. Mike. Dom. Lovat. Nearly every position coach on D. Saying it is one or the other misses the real mark.
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Offline buckeyepackfan  
#18 Posted : Monday, January 20, 2014 7:37:51 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool Go to Quoted Post
Certainly not because who has yet come up with a plausible answer that facilitates discussion towards a solution or resolution? Have you created such comment? No. Thus, we have not gone over it enough.

However, feel free to start another topic on another issue. We're waiting.



Meanwhile, the blame for the defense solely rests on Ted Thompson. I'm tired of the injuries excuse. Bring in men who are not soft and weak. Bring in men who can play hurt instead of whining about a damn thumb injury. Man up or go play baseball.


There's only so many AJ Hawks out there, they are hard to find, that's why when a GM gets ahold of one, he keeps them as long as he can.

Big Grin

I don't want to see The Packers organization turning into one like say The Browns, every few years(or sooner), there is a new GM and/or a new HC.

Veteran players look around, when they have a chance they want to go to a successful franchise that is stable from top to bottom.

The Packers are that right now, I guess the only problem is that our GM doesn't go after those same free Agents who might want to play in Green Bay.

2014 is a new year, may be some surprises, if not, The Packers are still pretty well stocked if guys don't go down with season endng injuries.
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Offline luigis  
#19 Posted : Monday, January 20, 2014 8:34:10 AM(UTC)
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As much as I love the picks of Lacy and Bakthiari I think the biggest problem we had in defense this season was the Datone Jones pick.
Getting a starter and solid player with ou first round pick is critical in the way of our team.

I'm not qualified to judge how bad this pick was but considering the players available and the needs our team had I believe this was a catastrophic mistake.
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Offline nerdmann  
#20 Posted : Monday, January 20, 2014 9:23:29 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: luigis Go to Quoted Post
As much as I love the picks of Lacy and Bakthiari I think the biggest problem we had in defense this season was the Datone Jones pick.
Getting a starter and solid player with ou first round pick is critical in the way of our team.

I'm not qualified to judge how bad this pick was but considering the players available and the needs our team had I believe this was a catastrophic mistake.


I personally HATED the pick at the time. I'm on record as having stated that.

But I'm not giving up on the dude. I don't think he "fits" the system, but they apparently like what they see. I am reserving judgement until I see him healthy.

According to the team, he sprained his ankle in the first preseason game. If you'll recall, he had what he calls a "kill shot" on the QB, and the OL tripped him. So if the team is reporting "sprained ankle," it's probably a compound fracture for all we know. I'm not gonna get down on the guy for playing with a compound fracture.
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Offline QCHuskerFan  
#21 Posted : Monday, January 20, 2014 10:10:04 AM(UTC)
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I am not big on blame. Doesn't really matter what we think anyway.

Smith, Bowman, Willis, Brooks.

Neal, Jones, Hawk, Perry.

There's a good chance that none of our starting LB's from the playoff game would even make the 49er's roster. Perry would be the likely possibility, based solely on his talent being good enough to warrant a 1st rd pick.

McDonald, Dorsey, Smith

Pickett, Raji, Daniels

Same story. See the disruption/ penetration from the DL against Seattle?

Reid, Whitner.

Burnett, Anybody.

Same story. Their safeties made some plays. At the line and in the backfield. Gave some up also, but so do ours.

Rogers, Brown, Brock, Wright

Williams, Shields, Hyde and House.

Ok. Packers win this area. Our CB's are a pretty special group.

But to compare lineups, the 49er's are a more talented group in 3 of 4 areas. Dramatically so in 2, LB and Safety.

Many wish to fire Capers. But let's pretend and try swapping Capers and 49ers DC Fangio. Who do you think would have the better D? I think Capers would have the best D handsdown. Better players= Better D.
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Offline play2win  
#22 Posted : Monday, January 20, 2014 11:15:15 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: QCHuskerFan Go to Quoted Post
I am not big on blame. Doesn't really matter what we think anyway.

Smith, Bowman, Willis, Brooks.

Neal, Jones, Hawk, Perry.

There's a good chance that none of our starting LB's from the playoff game would even make the 49er's roster. Perry would be the likely possibility, based solely on his talent being good enough to warrant a 1st rd pick.

McDonald, Dorsey, Smith

Pickett, Raji, Daniels

Same story. See the disruption/ penetration from the DL against Seattle?

Reid, Whitner.

Burnett, Anybody.

Same story. Their safeties made some plays. At the line and in the backfield. Gave some up also, but so do ours.

Rogers, Brown, Brock, Wright

Williams, Shields, Hyde and House.

Ok. Packers win this area. Our CB's are a pretty special group.

But to compare lineups, the 49er's are a more talented group in 3 of 4 areas. Dramatically so in 2, LB and Safety.

Many wish to fire Capers. But let's pretend and try swapping Capers and 49ers DC Fangio. Who do you think would have the better D? I think Capers would have the best D handsdown. Better players= Better D.


It is a real selling point in the argument QCHuskerFan. I agree with you 100%.

For instance, I like to think how dramatically our defense would change with the additions of Jairus Byrd and Brian Orakpo… a healthy Nick Perry and Clay Matthews. Maybe adding a top MLB in the draft. I bet Dom Capers could do quite a lot of good with that kind of talent on his defense. Talent that has been missing for years, either through injury, or personnel mismanagement.

I'm going to throw one other thing out there, because I'd like to know what others here think: Nate McMillian. What the hell happened to him? He showed some promise as a rookie, nabbed a couple of picks and hit hard. His second season was a turbo flush down the toilet. I always thought he was at the very least better than MD Jennings. I wonder what the real story is behind his cutting in mid season.

On this point, I wonder if Capers is too stuck in his ways. He considered Jennings to be a veteran player. Jennings sucked. At least McMillian showed some promise last season. With Safety being such an important position, how did Capers let this position go so horribly wrong? We all saw the same kind of philosophy in play with Datone Jones, who got just 16 snaps in our final 3 games combined! He only averaged a little over 14 snaps per game. Never once saw more than 23 in a game, and rarely played in our 3-4! If these guys don't play, they don't learn with real game experience, they don't develop. How is he supposed to develop as a 3-4 DE when you don't play him there?

This, to me, is the crux of the biscuit when it comes to Green Bay's problems on defense. Dom Capers will play lesser talents, with less upside, simply because they are more veteran to his system. That goes against the "draft and develop" philosophy this team is built on under Ted Thompson. In this regard, I think Dom Capers can and should be called out. I think he needs to make some very big changes in the manner in which he handles our players, or he should be out.

Under your scenario, QCHuskerFan, of swapping out DCs, would Fangio do a better job of developing our talent? Would he put our current players in better positions, allow them better opportunities for success? I think he might. It would be interesting to see what another DC might do with what Dom has had to work with, and how he would adjust his surrounding staff.

Two more resounding pieces of the puzzle in player development failures are B J Raji and Morgan Burnett. We could add Davon House as a third. WTF Dom? In this, I do believe he does deserve blame. Epic failures in developing his players.
Offline QCHuskerFan  
#23 Posted : Monday, January 20, 2014 3:31:25 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: play2win Go to Quoted Post

Two more resounding pieces of the puzzle in player development failures are B J Raji and Morgan Burnett. We could add Davon House as a third. WTF Dom? In this, I do believe he does deserve blame. Epic failures in developing his players.


I don't think your examples of player development failure are a fair analogy. Certainly none of them are 'epic'.

Raji- Best year was rookie year. 1st rd pick so he knew he wasn't going anywhere. Anybody ever worked with an Owner's child in a business? I see Raji as lazy and unmotivated. There is not always a magic coaching button for this.

Burnett- If we had been polled last year at this time, Burnett wouldn't have been an example for you. He improved tremendously over his first 3 years. He was looked to as one of the real playmakers on the D going into 2014. Then this year happened. We may never know how much his injury set him back or if the lack of talent around him destroyed his year. But he has certainly developed positively since year 1.

House- Ok. He's not Richard Sherman. But his tackles have gone up over the last 3 years. Passes defensed has gone up. He has become a reliable and good special teamer. He's not a lock down CB. But pretty decent performance for a 4th rd pick.

Examples you might use for Dom's failures would be Guy, McMillian, Wilson, and Neal. But for every failure, you have a success like Shields, Hayward, Daniels, Lattimore, and Tramon Williams.

I believe our coaching staff has as many successes as failures. And all staffs have some 'failures'. Where our staff is challenged is health.
Offline steveishere  
#24 Posted : Monday, January 20, 2014 3:55:18 PM(UTC)
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The thing I don't get about Burnett is for like 3 games after he came back from his injury he was playing well and was an obvious boost for the defense. Then starting around the Minnesota game he just fell apart for the rest of the year. If anyone has the ability to watch any games watch him against Baltimore. If we had that Burnett all year he would have had a great season.
Offline nerdmann  
#25 Posted : Monday, January 20, 2014 6:13:45 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: steveishere Go to Quoted Post
The thing I don't get about Burnett is for like 3 games after he came back from his injury he was playing well and was an obvious boost for the defense. Then starting around the Minnesota game he just fell apart for the rest of the year. If anyone has the ability to watch any games watch him against Baltimore. If we had that Burnett all year he would have had a great season.


I honestly think he's having to cover for mistakes made by others.
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