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QCHuskerFan  
#21 Posted : Monday, January 20, 2014 10:10:04 AM(UTC)
I am not big on blame. Doesn't really matter what we think anyway.

Smith, Bowman, Willis, Brooks.

Neal, Jones, Hawk, Perry.

There's a good chance that none of our starting LB's from the playoff game would even make the 49er's roster. Perry would be the likely possibility, based solely on his talent being good enough to warrant a 1st rd pick.

McDonald, Dorsey, Smith

Pickett, Raji, Daniels

Same story. See the disruption/ penetration from the DL against Seattle?

Reid, Whitner.

Burnett, Anybody.

Same story. Their safeties made some plays. At the line and in the backfield. Gave some up also, but so do ours.

Rogers, Brown, Brock, Wright

Williams, Shields, Hyde and House.

Ok. Packers win this area. Our CB's are a pretty special group.

But to compare lineups, the 49er's are a more talented group in 3 of 4 areas. Dramatically so in 2, LB and Safety.

Many wish to fire Capers. But let's pretend and try swapping Capers and 49ers DC Fangio. Who do you think would have the better D? I think Capers would have the best D handsdown. Better players= Better D.
play2win  
#22 Posted : Monday, January 20, 2014 11:15:15 AM(UTC)
QCHuskerFan said: Go to Quoted Post
I am not big on blame. Doesn't really matter what we think anyway.

Smith, Bowman, Willis, Brooks.

Neal, Jones, Hawk, Perry.

There's a good chance that none of our starting LB's from the playoff game would even make the 49er's roster. Perry would be the likely possibility, based solely on his talent being good enough to warrant a 1st rd pick.

McDonald, Dorsey, Smith

Pickett, Raji, Daniels

Same story. See the disruption/ penetration from the DL against Seattle?

Reid, Whitner.

Burnett, Anybody.

Same story. Their safeties made some plays. At the line and in the backfield. Gave some up also, but so do ours.

Rogers, Brown, Brock, Wright

Williams, Shields, Hyde and House.

Ok. Packers win this area. Our CB's are a pretty special group.

But to compare lineups, the 49er's are a more talented group in 3 of 4 areas. Dramatically so in 2, LB and Safety.

Many wish to fire Capers. But let's pretend and try swapping Capers and 49ers DC Fangio. Who do you think would have the better D? I think Capers would have the best D handsdown. Better players= Better D.


It is a real selling point in the argument QCHuskerFan. I agree with you 100%.

For instance, I like to think how dramatically our defense would change with the additions of Jairus Byrd and Brian Orakpo… a healthy Nick Perry and Clay Matthews. Maybe adding a top MLB in the draft. I bet Dom Capers could do quite a lot of good with that kind of talent on his defense. Talent that has been missing for years, either through injury, or personnel mismanagement.

I'm going to throw one other thing out there, because I'd like to know what others here think: Nate McMillian. What the hell happened to him? He showed some promise as a rookie, nabbed a couple of picks and hit hard. His second season was a turbo flush down the toilet. I always thought he was at the very least better than MD Jennings. I wonder what the real story is behind his cutting in mid season.

On this point, I wonder if Capers is too stuck in his ways. He considered Jennings to be a veteran player. Jennings sucked. At least McMillian showed some promise last season. With Safety being such an important position, how did Capers let this position go so horribly wrong? We all saw the same kind of philosophy in play with Datone Jones, who got just 16 snaps in our final 3 games combined! He only averaged a little over 14 snaps per game. Never once saw more than 23 in a game, and rarely played in our 3-4! If these guys don't play, they don't learn with real game experience, they don't develop. How is he supposed to develop as a 3-4 DE when you don't play him there?

This, to me, is the crux of the biscuit when it comes to Green Bay's problems on defense. Dom Capers will play lesser talents, with less upside, simply because they are more veteran to his system. That goes against the "draft and develop" philosophy this team is built on under Ted Thompson. In this regard, I think Dom Capers can and should be called out. I think he needs to make some very big changes in the manner in which he handles our players, or he should be out.

Under your scenario, QCHuskerFan, of swapping out DCs, would Fangio do a better job of developing our talent? Would he put our current players in better positions, allow them better opportunities for success? I think he might. It would be interesting to see what another DC might do with what Dom has had to work with, and how he would adjust his surrounding staff.

Two more resounding pieces of the puzzle in player development failures are B J Raji and Morgan Burnett. We could add Davon House as a third. WTF Dom? In this, I do believe he does deserve blame. Epic failures in developing his players.
QCHuskerFan  
#23 Posted : Monday, January 20, 2014 3:31:25 PM(UTC)
play2win said: Go to Quoted Post

Two more resounding pieces of the puzzle in player development failures are B J Raji and Morgan Burnett. We could add Davon House as a third. WTF Dom? In this, I do believe he does deserve blame. Epic failures in developing his players.


I don't think your examples of player development failure are a fair analogy. Certainly none of them are 'epic'.

Raji- Best year was rookie year. 1st rd pick so he knew he wasn't going anywhere. Anybody ever worked with an Owner's child in a business? I see Raji as lazy and unmotivated. There is not always a magic coaching button for this.

Burnett- If we had been polled last year at this time, Burnett wouldn't have been an example for you. He improved tremendously over his first 3 years. He was looked to as one of the real playmakers on the D going into 2014. Then this year happened. We may never know how much his injury set him back or if the lack of talent around him destroyed his year. But he has certainly developed positively since year 1.

House- Ok. He's not Richard Sherman. But his tackles have gone up over the last 3 years. Passes defensed has gone up. He has become a reliable and good special teamer. He's not a lock down CB. But pretty decent performance for a 4th rd pick.

Examples you might use for Dom's failures would be Guy, McMillian, Wilson, and Neal. But for every failure, you have a success like Shields, Hayward, Daniels, Lattimore, and Tramon Williams.

I believe our coaching staff has as many successes as failures. And all staffs have some 'failures'. Where our staff is challenged is health.
steveishere  
#24 Posted : Monday, January 20, 2014 3:55:18 PM(UTC)
The thing I don't get about Burnett is for like 3 games after he came back from his injury he was playing well and was an obvious boost for the defense. Then starting around the Minnesota game he just fell apart for the rest of the year. If anyone has the ability to watch any games watch him against Baltimore. If we had that Burnett all year he would have had a great season.
nerdmann  
#25 Posted : Monday, January 20, 2014 6:13:45 PM(UTC)
steveishere said: Go to Quoted Post
The thing I don't get about Burnett is for like 3 games after he came back from his injury he was playing well and was an obvious boost for the defense. Then starting around the Minnesota game he just fell apart for the rest of the year. If anyone has the ability to watch any games watch him against Baltimore. If we had that Burnett all year he would have had a great season.


I honestly think he's having to cover for mistakes made by others.
Zero2Cool  
#26 Posted : Saturday, January 25, 2014 9:07:50 PM(UTC)
68md  
#27 Posted : Sunday, January 26, 2014 8:18:32 AM(UTC)
Zero2Cool said: Go to Quoted Post



Dick L is not going to give you an objective opinion on Capers.. in fact that whole article was a fluff piece praising Capers.


All of you ask yourself this..... has our defense been good enough to win a super bowl the last 2 years ?

If the answer is no then you would think that some major changes take place and yet MM/TT more or less stay staus quo :-k

If Mike McCarthy team goal is to win a SB yet you know your defense isn't good enough to do so something is very very wrong from the top down. Two Cents
nerdmann  
#28 Posted : Sunday, January 26, 2014 8:27:08 AM(UTC)
68md said: Go to Quoted Post
Dick L is not going to give you an objective opinion on Capers.. in fact that whole article was a fluff piece praising Capers.


All of you ask yourself this..... has our defense been good enough to win a super bowl the last 2 years ?

If the answer is no then you would think that some major changes take place and yet MM/TT more or less stay staus quo :-k

If Mike McCarthy team goal is to win a SB yet you know your defense isn't good enough to do so something is very very wrong from the top down. Two Cents


There has been nothing but Capers defending puff pieces and Ted Blame since we as fans started calling Dom out. The media form a circle around Dom like the mainstream press did around Bush during the Iraq War.

That's what the rest of us are for. Engaging in free speech.
User is suspended until 4/29/2043 11:56:55 PM(UTC) texaspackerbacker  
#29 Posted : Sunday, January 26, 2014 8:48:10 AM(UTC)
nerdmann said: Go to Quoted Post
There has been nothing but Capers defending puff pieces and Ted Blame since we as fans started calling Dom out. The media form a circle around Dom like the mainstream press did around Bush during the Iraq War.

That's what the rest of us are for. Engaging in free speech.


I'll leave the politics alone, since you wimped out of those discussions a long time ago, but on the football side:

As Husker's post above illustrates, the Packers D personnel stacks up poorly with the Niners. You could do a similar comparison with virtually all of the contending teams a some of the lesser ones, and it would come out the same. THAT is what Ted has provided for Capers to work with. And as I've said MANY times, we would really be S.O.L. if we had to play teams straight up with plain vanilla D. Capers schemes have at least partially compensated for the talent deficit.

As for the media, it seems that they are just waking up to Thompson's GM deficiencies as a result of exposure when Rodgers was out. Really, though, this poor D thing has been coming on for years.
User is suspended until 5/28/2018 11:54:40 AM(UTC) DakotaT  
#30 Posted : Sunday, January 26, 2014 11:00:22 AM(UTC)
Our defense needs to replace its lazy turd, old declining guy, and piece of dog shit that we trot out their and pass them off as capable starters in this league. The other 8 players are capable defenders. Out of the 8, you have 2 legitimate All Pro players albeit one of them is a free agent. Our defenses problem has more to do with gaping holes than it does anything else.
Mucky Tundra  
#31 Posted : Sunday, January 26, 2014 11:05:10 AM(UTC)
DakotaT said: Go to Quoted Post
Our defense needs to replace its lazy turd, old declining guy, and piece of dog shit that we trot out their and pass them off as capable starters in this league.


Raji, Pickett and Jennings? :-k
User is suspended until 5/28/2018 11:54:40 AM(UTC) DakotaT  
#32 Posted : Sunday, January 26, 2014 11:07:24 AM(UTC)
texaspackerbacker said: Go to Quoted Post
I'll leave the politics alone, since you wimped out of those discussions a long time ago, but on the football side:



Nobody wimps out in political talk with you. They all just recognize your bat shit crazy stupid views and pass you off as incorrigible. I, on the other hand, am a tremendous glutton for punishment and am very stubborn. And of course - am never wrong. [grin1]
User is suspended until 4/29/2043 11:56:55 PM(UTC) texaspackerbacker  
#33 Posted : Sunday, January 26, 2014 11:28:42 AM(UTC)
DakotaT said: Go to Quoted Post
Nobody wimps out in political talk with you. They all just recognize your bat shit crazy stupid views and pass you off as incorrigible. I, on the other hand, am a tremendous glutton for punishment and am very stubborn. And of course - am never wrong. [grin1]


yeah right - I applaud your effort - lame as it is.

buckeyepackfan  
#34 Posted : Sunday, January 26, 2014 12:14:13 PM(UTC)
I am glad we have all the answers right here on this forum.

A Note to whoever the hell is above Ted Thompson these days, still Mark Murphy?

Here is what needs to be done.

1. Fire Ted Thompson,according to some on here he doesn't have a clue anymore,and pretty much never did, he just got lucky 8 years ago,so why the hell is he still here?

2. Fire Dom Capers, sorry Ted Thompson has given you a bunch of bums to work with(according to our experts), but those are the breaks, get the hell out.

3. Fire Campen, no clue how he kept his job, doesn't matter The Packers finished #7 overall in rushing, and was still a top 5 passing offense while using 4 different QB's, according to our sources, the Offensive line pretty much sucked the whole year, so bye bye Campen!!!

3. Cut loose, A.J. Hawk, Ryan Pickett, Jarret Bush, Tramon Williams, John Kuhn and James Jones, these guys are old and can't play anymore.
Doesn't matter that Hawk and Pickett were there every game, trying to compensate for the lack of experienced players around them and one HUGE disappointment by the name of B.J. Raji.

Doesn't matter Bush and Williams had their best years since 2010, doesn't matter without Kuhn, The Packers would have never made the playoffs, and although Jones played through injuries and had his best year(yardage wise) yet, it doesn't matter,time for all of them to go.

No room for veterans on this team!!!!!!

4.Sign Sam Shields and Jarius Byrd, the rest of The Packers FA's haven't lived up to their potential, so let them go.

Mr. Murphy, whoever you decide to bring in, although by now it's pretty slim pickings, to be the new GM, whoever it is, he will be able to stock The Packers roster with whomever he wants, as long as they agree to come to Green Bay for minimum pay.

After Rodgers, Mathews, Shields and Byrd. there will be no money left to sign anyone else.

This should lead to a real exciting year in 2014 as we all watch The Packer Team we all wanted.

Because playing a bunch of 2nd and 3rd tier FA's along with a bunch of rookies and UFA's has always led to the right combinaton for a winning season.

Last but not least, EVERYONE IS REQUIRED TO GO THROUGH YOGA CLASSES!!!!!!!!
We all know that yoga is the solution to all the injuries!!!!

Either listen to us Mr. Murphy, or YOU CAN GET THE HELL OUT OF GREEN BAY ALSO!!!!








User is suspended until 5/28/2018 11:54:40 AM(UTC) DakotaT  
#35 Posted : Sunday, January 26, 2014 1:43:19 PM(UTC)
Buckeye, maybe you have an explanation as to why our offense gets shackled down every time they play a physical defense? I mean we have a top ten offensive line according to "statistics". But then again, some of us realize that statistics are completely arbitrary against the competition you are playing, now aren't they? Our O-line is serviceable at best - only 1 possible All Pro in the group. I think it is becoming painfully obvious that we are becoming the Sherman Packers all over again. A team that buckles when it gets punched in the mouth.

You do have one thing right though - the Packers have too much $$$$ wrapped up in two players.

Also, why you insist on chastising some of us on our critiquing of sub-par play is beyond me, but it is a free country, for us Negative Nancy's as well as you Pom Pom Pollys.
DoddPower  
#36 Posted : Sunday, January 26, 2014 10:14:27 PM(UTC)
DakotaT said: Go to Quoted Post
Nobody wimps out in political talk with you. They all just recognize your bat shit crazy stupid views and pass you off as incorrigible. I, on the other hand, am a tremendous glutton for punishment and am very stubborn. And of course - am never wrong. [grin1]


Indeed. I'd rather have a discussion with my dog. It would make more sense. But then again, he is a Labrador Retriever. =)
nerdmann  
#37 Posted : Monday, January 27, 2014 6:32:04 AM(UTC)
DoddPower said: Go to Quoted Post
Indeed. I'd rather have a discussion with my dog. It would make more sense. But then again, he is a Labrador Retriever. =)


I love Labs.
wpr  
#38 Posted : Monday, January 27, 2014 7:00:10 AM(UTC)
DoddPower said: Go to Quoted Post
Indeed. I'd rather have a discussion with my dog. It would make more sense. But then again, he is a Labrador Retriever. =)


alright Dodd this thread has ran its course. bring on the lab photos and chat. [grin1]
it would be more entertaining.
Zero2Cool  
#39 Posted : Monday, January 27, 2014 7:04:53 AM(UTC)
buckeyepackfan said: Go to Quoted Post
I am glad we have all the answers right here on this forum.

A Note to whoever the hell is above Ted Thompson these days, still Mark Murphy?

Here is what needs to be done.

1. Fire Ted Thompson,according to some on here he doesn't have a clue anymore,and pretty much never did, he just got lucky 8 years ago,so why the hell is he still here?

2. Fire Dom Capers, sorry Ted Thompson has given you a bunch of bums to work with(according to our experts), but those are the breaks, get the hell out.

3. Fire Campen, no clue how he kept his job, doesn't matter The Packers finished #7 overall in rushing, and was still a top 5 passing offense while using 4 different QB's, according to our sources, the Offensive line pretty much sucked the whole year, so bye bye Campen!!!

3. Cut loose, A.J. Hawk, Ryan Pickett, Jarret Bush, Tramon Williams, John Kuhn and James Jones, these guys are old and can't play anymore.
Doesn't matter that Hawk and Pickett were there every game, trying to compensate for the lack of experienced players around them and one HUGE disappointment by the name of B.J. Raji.

Doesn't matter Bush and Williams had their best years since 2010, doesn't matter without Kuhn, The Packers would have never made the playoffs, and although Jones played through injuries and had his best year(yardage wise) yet, it doesn't matter,time for all of them to go.

No room for veterans on this team!!!!!!

4.Sign Sam Shields and Jarius Byrd, the rest of The Packers FA's haven't lived up to their potential, so let them go.

Mr. Murphy, whoever you decide to bring in, although by now it's pretty slim pickings, to be the new GM, whoever it is, he will be able to stock The Packers roster with whomever he wants, as long as they agree to come to Green Bay for minimum pay.

After Rodgers, Mathews, Shields and Byrd. there will be no money left to sign anyone else.

This should lead to a real exciting year in 2014 as we all watch The Packer Team we all wanted.

Because playing a bunch of 2nd and 3rd tier FA's along with a bunch of rookies and UFA's has always led to the right combinaton for a winning season.

Last but not least, EVERYONE IS REQUIRED TO GO THROUGH YOGA CLASSES!!!!!!!!
We all know that yoga is the solution to all the injuries!!!!

Either listen to us Mr. Murphy, or YOU CAN GET THE HELL OUT OF GREEN BAY ALSO!!!!


As fans, it is our right and our freedom to state what we feel needs to be changed. Do any of us really feel we are smarter than those in charge? Sure we do, hiding behind our screens we feel super macho, but you put any one of us in the hot seat of making these decisions ... these decisions that dictate whether we can continue to provide for our family and I bet a good deal of us would buckle massively under the pressure.

It's no different than us saying "we can make a 30 yard field goal every time!!" or "I could have caught that pass!!! wow you suck!!" ... fact of the matter is if we could, we would be doing it and raking six or seven figures annually.

As for whats wrong with the defense. It's the players, they are too young and green. They play scared to make a mistake instead of eager to make a play.




play2win  
#40 Posted : Monday, January 27, 2014 7:52:22 AM(UTC)
Zero2Cool said: Go to Quoted Post
As fans, it is our right and our freedom to state what we feel needs to be changed. Do any of us really feel we are smarter than those in charge? Sure we do, hiding behind our screens we feel super macho, but you put any one of us in the hot seat of making these decisions ... these decisions that dictate whether we can continue to provide for our family and I bet a good deal of us would buckle massively under the pressure.

It's no different than us saying "we can make a 30 yard field goal every time!!" or "I could have caught that pass!!! wow you suck!!" ... fact of the matter is if we could, we would be doing it and raking six or seven figures annually.

As for whats wrong with the defense. It's the players, they are too young and green. They play scared to make a mistake instead of eager to make a play.






All the more reason to add a veteran presence on D, maybe two. Players who are top talents that know the game and have the experience. They know how to prepare, how to commit themselves to film study, and how to break down an opponent's intentions in real time before the snap.

I think this is exactly what Tramon Williams was alluding to when he said we are too young. Many of our players are learning the way from other young, inexperienced players, looking to win a job. This, to me, is a big flaw in the D & D system. You can't keep stacking young draftees and UDFAs onto your team and expect them to rise to the top, without solid veterans to show them the way.

Brad Jones would be considered a veteran player, so is MD Jennings in Capers' eyes. Both players are not very good players at their respective positions. And, now we have other young talents hoping to win a job away from players like this, players who simply don't get the job done to varying degrees. So, how high is the bar then?

Ted needs to add two top talents to our D. S and OLB would be perfect positions to add them, and rather than waste precious cap dollars retaining our own players who are part of the problem, just because they are ours, we should be looking for better options and doing everything we can to sign them, including cutting away the poor decisions we have made previously, even if we have to take a cap hit. Cut our losses, and add better talent through all the means at our disposal: FA, trade and the draft.

Brad Jones $12M over 3 years
Morgan Burnett $24M over 4 years

In hindsight, those are looking like some pretty big miscues in cap management and player procurement. Neither player is living up to his contract. Looking back, I didn't expect Burnett to fall off the face of the earth at SS. I wonder where he ranks in the NFL...

Ted offered $8M per year to BJ Raji. That appears to have been a big mistake, one that we are not suffering for because Raji turned it down. We got lucky, but I wonder still if he won't be re-signed.

Mistakes have been made, no doubt. Time to right the ship.
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