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Offline play2win  
#1 Posted : Saturday, February 15, 2014 9:24:58 AM(UTC)
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I've always wondered about this and why so many people are opposed to trading away from next year's draft. To me, it seems we have a window of opportunity, and we are in DIRE need of upgrades at so many positions. Why wait? The player you trade up for will be on your roster with a year's experience under his belt next year.

We have so many needs, that I am hoping Ted makes a change in his philosophy and goes all in this May in the draft. I would love for him to land a couple of top talents trading up like he did in 2009 with the additions of Raji and Matthews. That trade up helped us win a SB.

I'd gladly trade away our R1 for 2015 if it would help us eliminate our problems on D, which right now are vast.
Offline beast  
#2 Posted : Saturday, February 15, 2014 12:02:07 PM(UTC)
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I think because you normal lose value that way... like say a 1st round next year is worth a 2nd round this year ... while that might not be true that's normally how draft picks are traded.. get one round this year but have to give up your pick in the next higher round the next.

If there is a good player for it then you can surely think about trying it though, I think Ted Thompson has said he doesn't like trading draft picks from one year to another as he prefers to have it balance out more and you never know when one year will be really good and the next one won't be or vice versa
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Offline nerdmann  
#3 Posted : Saturday, February 15, 2014 12:14:06 PM(UTC)
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Ted takes the long view, and I'm glad he does that. He does not mortgage the future, or we wouldn't have had a chance the last few years.
“Winning is not a sometime thing, it is an all the time thing. You don't do things right once in a while…you do them right all the time.”
Offline DakotaT  
#4 Posted : Saturday, February 15, 2014 12:38:32 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: nerdmann Go to Quoted Post
Ted takes the long view, and I'm glad he does that. He does not mortgage the future, or we wouldn't have had a chance the last few years.


Since first ballot hall of famers don't fall from the sky, how many more years do we have to win some more Super Bowls? Favre, Rodgers, ? do we have a long view, or a shorter window than we think?
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Offline dhazer  
#5 Posted : Saturday, February 15, 2014 12:44:11 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: nerdmann Go to Quoted Post
Ted takes the long view, and I'm glad he does that. He does not mortgage the future, or we wouldn't have had a chance the last few years.

I say we go the other way and trade our 1st this year for a 1st next year to a team like the jags or Browns :)

Look what the Rams got from trading away their 2nd overall pick 2 years ago for 3 1st round picks and now this year they have the 2nd overall pick from the redskins and then they have their own pick at #13.

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Just Imagine this for the next 6-9 years. What a ride it will be :)
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nerdmann on 2/15/2014(UTC)
Offline nerdmann  
#6 Posted : Saturday, February 15, 2014 12:50:20 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DakotaT Go to Quoted Post
Since first ballot hall of famers don't fall from the sky, how many more years do we have to win some more Super Bowls? Favre, Rodgers, ? do we have a long view, or a shorter window than we think?


Mike can do with Tolzien what he did with Rich Gannon. We'll see how he develops. Could be the next Hasselbeck.

At any rate, I'm not going to live in fear of the future. We developed the guy we've got now, nothing says we couldn't do it again. And btw, this team has won 12 world championships without him!
“Winning is not a sometime thing, it is an all the time thing. You don't do things right once in a while…you do them right all the time.”
Offline sschind  
#7 Posted : Saturday, February 15, 2014 1:59:07 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: dhazer Go to Quoted Post
I say we go the other way and trade our 1st this year for a 1st next year to a team like the jags or Browns :)

Look what the Rams got from trading away their 2nd overall pick 2 years ago for 3 1st round picks and now this year they have the 2nd overall pick from the redskins and then they have their own pick at #13.



And If I were the Rams I'd trade it away again. With so many teams needing a QB someone (vikings maybe) might be willing to swap places and throw in a few extra picks. Maybe and second and a 4th.

In our case we don't have the #2 pick we have the #23 pick. I doubt the Jags would trade their #1 next year, which will likely be a top 5 pick for the #23 pick this year. That would be just stupid. Which means maybe the Browns would do it.

I missed the smiley at the end of you post. I answered as if you were making a serious suggestion. That may not be the case, sorry.
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Offline steveishere  
#8 Posted : Saturday, February 15, 2014 2:28:12 PM(UTC)
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I don't see an extra 2nd round pick being the solution to our problems and at an unknown cost. If some badass prospect for whatever reason falls to the second round that's one thing but going into the draft planning to trade a future 1st for some as yet unknown player... that's just silly.

Problem is you don't know what you are giving away, Rodgers could go out for the year week 1 and we end up with a top 5 pick next year. Not only do we lost the top 5 pick then we also lost it for some player that probably ended up being irrelevant for that season anyways. Not really worth it.
thanks Post received 1 applause.
musccy on 2/17/2014(UTC)
Offline wpr  
#9 Posted : Saturday, February 15, 2014 2:53:20 PM(UTC)
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Earlier this week I was looking at Walter's site. They feel the 2015 draft will have more quality players than the 2014 draft.

They would lose 2 ways. Giving up a 1st for a 2nd or a 2nd for a 3rd. Who every they draft this year would need to be rated a round higher on their board than they take him. And the player they lose out on next year would be better than who ever is picked in that spot in the 2014 draft.
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Offline nerdmann  
#10 Posted : Saturday, February 15, 2014 3:02:59 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: wpr Go to Quoted Post
Earlier this week I was looking at Walter's site. They feel the 2015 draft will have more quality players than the 2014 draft.

They would lose 2 ways. Giving up a 1st for a 2nd or a 2nd for a 3rd. Who every they draft this year would need to be rated a round higher on their board than they take him. And the player they lose out on next year would be better than who ever is picked in that spot in the 2014 draft.


I could see Ted taking advantage of an arbitrage opportunity of that sort.
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Offline PackFanWithTwins  
#11 Posted : Monday, February 17, 2014 10:19:37 AM(UTC)
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While I don't agree with your assertion that we are in Dire needs at SO many positions. Sure we have needs, but there is NO team that doesn't have needs. It is impossible this day and age to have all 22 starting O and D positions set.

It all comes down to what are we trading and what are we getting in return. Are we trading to get a player from another team or trading it in the draft. I would be more willing to trade the pick for an already NFL player than higher draft pick. Do we get a Reggie White or a Tony Mandarich in return?

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thanks Post received 2 applause.
musccy on 2/17/2014(UTC), Mucky Tundra on 2/18/2014(UTC)
Offline play2win  
#12 Posted : Monday, February 17, 2014 2:11:31 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: PackFanWithTwins Go to Quoted Post
While I don't agree with your assertion that we are in Dire needs at SO many positions. Sure we have needs, but there is NO team that doesn't have needs. It is impossible this day and age to have all 22 starting O and D positions set.

It all comes down to what are we trading and what are we getting in return. Are we trading to get a player from another team or trading it in the draft. I would be more willing to trade the pick for an already NFL player than higher draft pick. Do we get a Reggie White or a Tony Mandarich in return?



I posed this based on the assumption that there was someone they really liked that they felt could immediately help this team, and that a proposed trade was of good value, not just arbitrarily tossing an R1 for an unknown quantity as someone alluded to.

I would trust Ted with a move like that, if he felt he could steal a great player away like he did with Matthews by jumping back into R1 for the second time, and I wouldn't have a problem with him trading away from next year if he chose to do that.
Offline texaspackerbacker  
#13 Posted : Monday, February 17, 2014 2:21:41 PM(UTC)
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Correct. Doing it just for the sake of doing it - trading away this year for next year - is a bad idea. However, keeping that option open - looking to grab somebody like Matthews if and only if there is solid hope for the guy, THAT would make sense.
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Offline Pack93z  
#14 Posted : Monday, February 17, 2014 2:39:20 PM(UTC)
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In your opening post you talked about so many holes in the roster, so if you feel we have a ton of holes to fill with a small window, is trading away picks really prudent?

A couple of things..

1. With Rodgers in his prime, the window is open. God that hurts to say that about a QB. Anyway.. I feel he has more than 2-3 years left.. realistically probably 5-6.

So, I don't think we have a small window left.

2. I don't feel that we have a ton of holes on this team.. defense maybe, but overall team. Not so much.

On offense.. a physical center, another receiving TE (assuming Finley walks). Bulaga comes back.. so that give us at least 3 deep at tackle with 2 of those guys able to drop inside. So maybe another interior lineman for depth. JC Tretter had high review prior to the injury.

On defense.. we need to solve the safety issue first and foremost. Find some more pass rush assuming no one steps forward this season. I would really like to find a physical beast inside at backer. Defensive line.. I think Daniels progression should continue.. having a interior pass rush will help immensely.. so we need another depth piece or two. Can Worthy be a piece? Datone should make another step forward. And I think Boyd will develop as well.. Not as dire there as one might think.

Special teams is a in good shape.

Personally, I would rather Ted become aggressive in FA than to deal away future picks to move up in this draft. Now.. if we have a shot at a blue chipper that the staff believes can't miss or fits perfectly.. I am more open to it. But Ted isn't going to change is stripes on an ongoing basis.. if we are active in FA this year.. I don't expect us to be next.

So we are going to have needs again next season.. no sense dealing that away on a draft that I think is fairly deep at our needs. Additionally, I don't see a ton of can't miss blue chips in this draft.

We are a difference maker on defense away.. personally a guy with a motor and can lead. Chris Borland type..
I think when there's enough will and aggression, there's no shortage of talent either.

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Offline play2win  
#15 Posted : Monday, February 17, 2014 5:49:42 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Pack93z Go to Quoted Post
In your opening post you talked about so many holes in the roster, so if you feel we have a ton of holes to fill with a small window, is trading away picks really prudent?

A couple of things..

1. With Rodgers in his prime, the window is open. God that hurts to say that about a QB. Anyway.. I feel he has more than 2-3 years left.. realistically probably 5-6.

So, I don't think we have a small window left.

2. I don't feel that we have a ton of holes on this team.. defense maybe, but overall team. Not so much.

On offense.. a physical center, another receiving TE (assuming Finley walks). Bulaga comes back.. so that give us at least 3 deep at tackle with 2 of those guys able to drop inside. So maybe another interior lineman for depth. JC Tretter had high review prior to the injury.

On defense.. we need to solve the safety issue first and foremost. Find some more pass rush assuming no one steps forward this season. I would really like to find a physical beast inside at backer. Defensive line.. I think Daniels progression should continue.. having a interior pass rush will help immensely.. so we need another depth piece or two. Can Worthy be a piece? Datone should make another step forward. And I think Boyd will develop as well.. Not as dire there as one might think.

Special teams is a in good shape.

Personally, I would rather Ted become aggressive in FA than to deal away future picks to move up in this draft. Now.. if we have a shot at a blue chipper that the staff believes can't miss or fits perfectly.. I am more open to it. But Ted isn't going to change is stripes on an ongoing basis.. if we are active in FA this year.. I don't expect us to be next.

So we are going to have needs again next season.. no sense dealing that away on a draft that I think is fairly deep at our needs. Additionally, I don't see a ton of can't miss blue chips in this draft.

We are a difference maker on defense away.. personally a guy with a motor and can lead. Chris Borland type..


I'm with you on Borland. That's ILB, a great need for us to add an immediate starter. We need another immediate starter at S. If we choose not to re-sign Raji & Pick, we need another immediate starter at either NT or DE. Add to that, Perry is rarely available, followed closely behind in availability by Matthews, and we may need help at OLB. This is it, assuming Shields is re-signed, and Morgan Burnett stops making that giant sucking sound.

Worthy is just a body and has shown next to nothing. I kind of feel the same about Jolly when you take a hard look at his numbers.

So, yeah, I see a lot of serious holes. All on D. I guess we are seeing this differently Pack93z.
Offline musccy  
#16 Posted : Monday, February 17, 2014 6:19:41 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: play2win Go to Quoted Post
I'm with you on Borland. That's ILB, a great need for us to add an immediate starter. We need another immediate starter at S. If we choose not to re-sign Raji & Pick, we need another immediate starter at either NT or DE. Add to that, Perry is rarely available, followed closely behind in availability by Matthews, and we may need help at OLB. This is it, assuming Shields is re-signed, and Morgan Burnett stops making that giant sucking sound.

Worthy is just a body and has shown next to nothing. I kind of feel the same about Jolly when you take a hard look at his numbers.

So, yeah, I see a lot of serious holes. All on D. I guess we are seeing this differently Pack93z.


Your original post asks about trading up for people that T.T. thinks are a sure bet, but even Worthy was considered a steal when he fell to the 2nd round and now you consider him just a body (I actually still have hope for him, but that's another debate).

If CM3 is injured again next year, will we not be asking about refilling his shoes with someone? Finley and Collins once provided reason to believe we were stable at those positions...same with Raji and look how we feel about those positions now! Starks, Hayward, and Shields have all been the guy we can't live w/o, and the goat that we need to draft to replace.

I generally agree with Ted's approach to the draft, the more eggs you throw, the more you'll find that stick, so it's just not worth risking future drafts just because you THINK you found a gem that can plug a current hole. Even if you're lucky enough to find a player that succeeds, it is inevitable that you will have an unforeseen gap elsewhere.


Offline play2win  
#17 Posted : Monday, February 17, 2014 7:26:12 PM(UTC)
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Well, stick to drafting as your sole means of talent acquisition and you're going to have gaps. We have gaps all over defensively.

I'm not giving up on Worthy, but I'm certainly not counting on him.
Offline yooperfan  
#18 Posted : Tuesday, February 18, 2014 4:45:35 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DakotaT Go to Quoted Post
Since first ballot hall of famers don't fall from the sky, how many more years do we have to win some more Super Bowls? Favre, Rodgers, ? do we have a long view, or a shorter window than we think?


I believe our window is smaller than most people think.
We all saw in 2013 what life is like without Rodgers. He's no ironman and he is approaching the ripe old age of 30 and has been sacked way too many times.
If we get 5 more years of Rodgers at the top of his game I'll be surprised..
IMHO Ted needs to make some major moves now to elevate the defense if we want a couple more Lombardis during the Rodgers era.
Only one would be a shame.

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Offline musccy  
#19 Posted : Tuesday, February 18, 2014 5:30:22 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: play2win Go to Quoted Post
Well, stick to drafting as your sole means of talent acquisition and you're going to have gaps. We have gaps all over defensively.

I'm not giving up on Worthy, but I'm certainly not counting on him.


Hardy Nickerson and Joe Johnson were supposed to fill gaps back in the Sherman years but clearly that didn't work. We could spend 9 mil on Byrd and he could go the way of Haynesworth or get injured day 2 of training camp. This is why in general I like Ted's approach, he knows there is never a sure thing or silver bullet so he never makes a knee jerk move that could jeopardize future years and needs.
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Offline wpr  
#20 Posted : Tuesday, February 18, 2014 5:54:52 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: musccy Go to Quoted Post
Hardy Nickerson and Joe Johnson were supposed to fill gaps back in the Sherman years but clearly that didn't work. We could spend 9 mil on Byrd and he could go the way of Haynesworth or get injured day 2 of training camp. This is why in general I like Ted's approach, he knows there is never a sure thing or silver bullet so he never makes a knee jerk move that could jeopardize future years and needs.


We can sit around and find the bad in any potential move and therefore not do it. Maybe it would be better for us to stay in our houses all day too.

No GM, HC or even player of any substance in any professional sport got to where they are by being afraid of the "what ifs."

The upside by going after a quality FA has more potential benefit than the downside.
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Offline musccy  
#21 Posted : Tuesday, February 18, 2014 7:34:03 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: wpr Go to Quoted Post
We can sit around and find the bad in any potential move and therefore not do it. Maybe it would be better for us to stay in our houses all day too.

No GM, HC or even player of any substance in any professional sport got to where they are by being afraid of the "what ifs."

The upside by going after a quality FA has more potential benefit than the downside.


The original question was whether you leverage some of next year's draft for a player you feel good about in the 2014 draft and the progression of my points was that no FA, trade, or draft pick, will guarantee you've filled a gap, and so I believe in Ted's cautious approach so you are prepared for contingency plans.

Non draft acquisitions seemed to work for the Chiefs with A. Smith, it worked with Woody, Reggie, Sean Jones, Eugene Robinson, and Pickett, but look what the Seahawks have gotten out of Harvin and Sidney Rice for 20 mil combined. I bet that's something they want to address this offseason, or at least bolster their WR depth.

Even if the Packers signed Byrd or any FA safety (which I'm not necessarily opposed to) it doesn't mean that we're in the clear, nor should we jeopardize future drafts for the sake of plugging a hole that we think is the last piece of the puzzle. It is inevitable that some other unforeseen gap will open up.

Offline texaspackerbacker  
#22 Posted : Tuesday, February 18, 2014 8:24:58 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: yooperfan Go to Quoted Post
I believe our window is smaller than most people think.
We all saw in 2013 what life is like without Rodgers. He's no ironman and he is approaching the ripe old age of 30 and has been sacked way too many times.
If we get 5 more years of Rodgers at the top of his game I'll be surprised..
IMHO Ted needs to make some major moves now to elevate the defense if we want a couple more Lombardis during the Rodgers era.
Only one would be a shame.



Peyton Manning was 37 last season. Why would you expect any less than Rodgers?

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Offline sschind  
#23 Posted : Tuesday, February 18, 2014 9:38:57 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: texaspackerbacker Go to Quoted Post
Peyton Manning was 37 last season. Why would you expect any less than Rodgers?



I don't want to put words into yoopers mouth (Oh hell, who am I kidding, if I didn't want to put words into his mouth why would say anything? I'd just let him come on here and explain it himself) I could be wrong but I don't think Manning took the pounding early in his career that Rodgers has. I think that is what he is referring to. Not that his skills won't hold up just that his body might not.

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Offline PackFanWithTwins  
#24 Posted : Tuesday, February 18, 2014 9:46:13 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: yooperfan Go to Quoted Post
I believe our window is smaller than most people think.
We all saw in 2013 what life is like without Rodgers. He's no ironman and he is approaching the ripe old age of 30 and has been sacked way too many times.
If we get 5 more years of Rodgers at the top of his game I'll be surprised..
IMHO Ted needs to make some major moves now to elevate the defense if we want a couple more Lombardis during the Rodgers era.
Only one would be a shame.



I also believe the window is smaller than some. Just not for the same reason. It is more about the cycle it takes to develop players, contracts to run their courses.

We have Major pieces locked up in contract. It will only be 2 or 3 years until we are going to need to address those contracts again. And about the same time until Lacy will be ready for a new deal.

We have youth on the team and that youth has considerable experience, we have veterans, and We have money. We have about 2 years to make a serious push at a SB before we will need to fall back and restock both cap and players for another couple years before being in position to make an other push again. I figure a cycle of about 5 years total where 2 should be serious contention. If we make the two years now, we should be able to get two windows before likely losing Rodgers to age.
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Offline yooperfan  
#25 Posted : Tuesday, February 18, 2014 11:00:39 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: sschind Go to Quoted Post
I don't want to put words into yoopers mouth (Oh hell, who am I kidding, if I didn't want to put words into his mouth why would say anything? I'd just let him come on here and explain it himself) I could be wrong but I don't think Manning took the pounding early in his career that Rodgers has. I think that is what he is referring to. Not that his skills won't hold up just that his body might not.



You took the words right out of my mouth.Laughing

I thought everyone was aware of the beating he has taken over the last 5 years or so.
Another 5 years of that kind of punishment would have to take it's toll.

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