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Offline nerdmann  
#26 Posted : Saturday, April 26, 2014 12:07:51 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: mi_keys Go to Quoted Post
Oh I know, you were simply answering Nerd's question on those players and whether they'd gone.



I'd say Bulaga and Sitton are at that level too.

We got guys.
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Offline Zero2Cool  
#27 Posted : Saturday, April 26, 2014 2:58:57 PM(UTC)
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A team with more pro bowlers than wins is a team that doesn't play selflessly.
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Offline mi_keys  
#28 Posted : Saturday, April 26, 2014 3:52:22 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: nerdmann Go to Quoted Post
I'd say Bulaga and Sitton are at that level too.

We got guys.


Right. Nelson was just, in my opinion, the most glaring omission. Sitton went in 2012. Bulaga has the potential to be a pro bowl player if he could stay healthy and take the next step forward. Cobb definitely has pro bowl potential.

And even if some of these guys don't, falling just short of being a pro bowl player means you are still a very good player. If you had 22 starters, each of whom were just short of making the pro bowl, you'd have a Super Bowl contending team.
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Offline nerdmann  
#29 Posted : Saturday, April 26, 2014 5:49:32 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: mi_keys Go to Quoted Post
Right. Nelson was just, in my opinion, the most glaring omission. Sitton went in 2012. Bulaga has the potential to be a pro bowl player if he could stay healthy and take the next step forward. Cobb definitely has pro bowl potential.

And even if some of these guys don't, falling just short of being a pro bowl player means you are still a very good player. If you had 22 starters, each of whom were just short of making the pro bowl, you'd have a Super Bowl contending team.


So this is just Spielman's two years as GM? I think he's been in their front office for awhile in varying capacities. I kept thinking he's been around almost as long as Ted.
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Offline wpr  
#30 Posted : Saturday, April 26, 2014 5:55:02 PM(UTC)
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There is a big difference between being player personnel director and being the GM.


Team(s) as a coach/administrator

Detroit Lions (College Scout) 1990–1994
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Chicago Bears (Director of Pro Personnel) 1997–1999
Miami Dolphins (Vice President of Player Personnel) 2000–2001
Miami Dolphins (Senior Vice President-Football Operations/Player Personnel) 2002–2003
Miami Dolphins (General Manager) 2004
Minnesota Vikings (Vice President of Player Personnel) 2006–2011
Minnesota Vikings (General Manager) 2012–present
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Offline DakotaT  
#31 Posted : Saturday, April 26, 2014 5:58:13 PM(UTC)
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My God, fellas, is the draft here yet? Granted, I have been AWOL lately, but is this all there is to discuss?
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Offline wpr  
#32 Posted : Saturday, April 26, 2014 7:13:42 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DakotaT Go to Quoted Post
My God, fellas, is the draft here yet? Granted, I have been AWOL lately, but is this all there is to discuss?


not at all. there is also Wade's Fantasizing within the realm of possibility

Enjoy
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Offline nerdmann  
#33 Posted : Saturday, April 26, 2014 8:29:27 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DakotaT Go to Quoted Post
My God, fellas, is the draft here yet? Granted, I have been AWOL lately, but is this all there is to discuss?


Haven't put my board together yet.
“Winning is not a sometime thing, it is an all the time thing. You don't do things right once in a while…you do them right all the time.”
Offline sschind  
#34 Posted : Sunday, April 27, 2014 6:37:43 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DakotaT Go to Quoted Post
My God, fellas, is the draft here yet? Granted, I have been AWOL lately, but is this all there is to discuss?


You were gone?

I respect your right to have your opinion but that doesn't mean I agree with it or respect you for having it.
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Offline wpr  
#35 Posted : Sunday, April 27, 2014 7:22:20 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DakotaT Go to Quoted Post
My God, fellas, is the draft here yet? Granted, I have been AWOL lately, but is this all there is to discuss?


Glad your are back. there is A LOT of pretend draft talk to sort through.
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Offline uffda udfa  
#36 Posted : Monday, April 28, 2014 6:14:18 AM(UTC)
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This is one of the biggest knocks on TT... the lack of sizzle players he drafts. It seems the Packers rarely take a guy in Round 1 who is a true game changer. Go back over decades of history and you rarely see it from Green bay, but you'll see it quite a bit from Minnesota.

It's tiring when you get the Vonnie Holiday's of the world while the rivals are getting the Randy Moss'.

Datone Jones vs. Cordarrelle Patterson (I realize Vikes had 3 cuts at it the 1st round and we had only one but we could've taken Patterson)

Ted's round 1 record isn't all that impressive. It's very odd. He is so good with his UDFA's and non first rounders but very middling, at best, in Round 1. If he was somewhat better in Round 1, this team would've won more than just one ring since he's been around, IMO.

I do think the mentality of who Ted Thompson drafts is different because it's Green Bay, WI and not NYC. He works hard to find guys who'll fit in this small market. I do think that is somewhat important. I don't think the majority of players want to play in Green Bay. Charles Woodson is a great example of that...he really didn't want any part of coming to Green Bay but found it was a great place for him. I have to believe Ted Thompson thought he would fit in Packerland or he would've never brought him aboard.

Trading back, this year, makes all the sense in the world in light of his record up higher with the supposed depth of this draft. Can't miss in Round 1 like usual.
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Offline nerdmann  
#37 Posted : Monday, April 28, 2014 7:50:44 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: uffda udfa Go to Quoted Post
This is one of the biggest knocks on TT... the lack of sizzle players he drafts. It seems the Packers rarely take a guy in Round 1 who is a true game changer. Go back over decades of history and you rarely see it from Green bay, but you'll see it quite a bit from Minnesota.

It's tiring when you get the Vonnie Holiday's of the world while the rivals are getting the Randy Moss'.

Datone Jones vs. Cordarrelle Patterson (I realize Vikes had 3 cuts at it the 1st round and we had only one but we could've taken Patterson)

Ted's round 1 record isn't all that impressive. It's very odd. He is so good with his UDFA's and non first rounders but very middling, at best, in Round 1. If he was somewhat better in Round 1, this team would've won more than just one ring since he's been around, IMO.

I do think the mentality of who Ted Thompson drafts is different because it's Green Bay, WI and not NYC. He works hard to find guys who'll fit in this small market. I do think that is somewhat important. I don't think the majority of players want to play in Green Bay. Charles Woodson is a great example of that...he really didn't want any part of coming to Green Bay but found it was a great place for him. I have to believe Ted Thompson thought he would fit in Packerland or he would've never brought him aboard.

Trading back, this year, makes all the sense in the world in light of his record up higher with the supposed depth of this draft. Can't miss in Round 1 like usual.


I look at the Justin Harrell pick as a "sizzle" pick. Turned into a bust, but he was taking a risk to get a guy with flashy skills. Worked pretty well when he took Aaron and Clay, not so much when he took Justin.

I tend to be more of a conservative, so I like these "high basement" picks. The Jordy Nelsons of the world are fine by me. Although I'd still try to upgrade Hawk. lol

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Offline sschind  
#38 Posted : Monday, April 28, 2014 9:22:18 AM(UTC)
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I just don't think that when you are picking in the last third of the first round there are that many "sizzle" picks. At least not in the way of national media attention. Obviously there are more than 20 very good college players entering the draft every year but those who garner the lions share of the headlines are usually top 15 talents or at least top 15 hyped talents.

That's why when a fan like me, who does not follow college football that much, sees a pick like Datone Jones for example all we have to go on is what the experts say and the experts were not touting him as a top half talent so it doesn't seem like an exciting pick. Sure it is a pick that produces a lot of hope in us just because he is our first round pick and he does have a lot of positives. We can't help but wonder though what it is about him that kept him out of the top 15. This is doubly true when the pick is a linemen, especially an offensive lineman. Its almost as its "Ho Hum" now we have to wait until the next round to get a pick we can be excited about.

Don't get me wrong, when based on previous years record I'd take a bottom 10 pick every year over a top 10. Its just that the perception is that the game changers as uffda put it are the top 15 guys. I know that is not true but but it is the perception for a lot of people. After all, something about these guys kept them from being a top 15 pick. Sometimes it is because there were a lot of really good players out there and they happened to be a victim of poor timing when they came out.

I have high hopes for every Packers pick and in the vast majority of cases I don't have any preconceived notions about them because I don't really know who they are or how they play. In a way that is good because it is rare for me to say "what the hell was he thinking" when Ted makes any of his picks. In a way it is bad because equally rarely do I get to say "now that's how you make a draft pick" About all I can say is "seems like a decent pick, I hope he works out" I guess that is why I don't get as worked up over the draft as anyone else.
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Offline gbguy20  
#39 Posted : Monday, April 28, 2014 9:46:05 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: sschind Go to Quoted Post
I just don't think that when you are picking in the last third of the first round there are that many "sizzle" picks.


hits the nail on the head. moving on.
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Offline uffda udfa  
#40 Posted : Monday, April 28, 2014 1:50:55 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: gbguy20 Go to Quoted Post
hits the nail on the head. moving on.


There are plenty of sizzle picks available in Round 1... we tend to take the foundational/solid types. Justin Harrell was not a sizzle pick to me at all. Man, it hurts to type that name. I love the draft...favorite event in all of sports but Harrell did nothing for me, and, ironically, nothing for us same as Jamal Reynolds...Ahmad Carroll. Man, have we had some brutal 1st rounders.

Check this link and look at some of the sizzle to be had at the end of Round 1 and beginning of Round 2.


http://www.drafthistory....index.php/rounds/round_1
Ted Thompson just ain't into sizzle. These touted game changers aren't usually his cup of tea.
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Offline play2win  
#41 Posted : Monday, April 28, 2014 2:01:28 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: uffda udfa Go to Quoted Post
There are plenty of sizzle picks available in Round 1... we tend to take the foundational/solid types. Justin Harrell was not a sizzle pick to me at all. Man, it hurts to type that name. I love the draft...favorite event in all of sports but Harrell did nothing for me, and, ironically, nothing for us same as Jamal Reynolds...Ahmad Carroll. Man, have we had some brutal 1st rounders.

Check this link and look at some of the sizzle to be had at the end of Round 1 and beginning of Round 2.


http://www.drafthistory....index.php/rounds/round_1

Ted Thompson just ain't into sizzle. These touted game changers aren't usually his cup of tea.


It is high time that changes. I don't want another player who requires one or two seasons to develop before we see a contribution. We need immediate, positive impact on this Packers team.

We need the 1st Round impact we saw in 2009. Something along those lines would be great.
Offline nerdmann  
#42 Posted : Monday, April 28, 2014 2:36:30 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: uffda udfa Go to Quoted Post
There are plenty of sizzle picks available in Round 1... we tend to take the foundational/solid types. Justin Harrell was not a sizzle pick to me at all. Man, it hurts to type that name. I love the draft...favorite event in all of sports but Harrell did nothing for me, and, ironically, nothing for us same as Jamal Reynolds...Ahmad Carroll. Man, have we had some brutal 1st rounders.

Check this link and look at some of the sizzle to be had at the end of Round 1 and beginning of Round 2.


http://www.drafthistory....index.php/rounds/round_1

Ted Thompson just ain't into sizzle. These touted game changers aren't usually his cup of tea.


Harrell had neither sizzle NOR steak.

It was a gamble at sizzle. If he was throwing guys around like a men among boys, it would have been sizzle. Aaron Rodgers is sizzle. Clay Matthews, sizzle.
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Offline gbguy20  
#43 Posted : Monday, April 28, 2014 3:00:03 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: uffda udfa Go to Quoted Post
There are plenty of sizzle picks available in Round 1... we tend to take the foundational/solid types. Justin Harrell was not a sizzle pick to me at all. Man, it hurts to type that name. I love the draft...favorite event in all of sports but Harrell did nothing for me, and, ironically, nothing for us same as Jamal Reynolds...Ahmad Carroll. Man, have we had some brutal 1st rounders.

Check this link and look at some of the sizzle to be had at the end of Round 1 and beginning of Round 2.


http://www.drafthistory....index.php/rounds/round_1

Ted Thompson just ain't into sizzle. These touted game changers aren't usually his cup of tea.


clicked your link, tried to find sizzle in the last 3rd of round 1. did not find it. A sizzle pick to me is someone who has a ton of hype leading up to the draft, not someone who just turns out to be good. maybe your definition isn't the same as mine.
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Offline uffda udfa  
#44 Posted : Monday, April 28, 2014 6:29:31 PM(UTC)
uffda udfa

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Originally Posted by: gbguy20 Go to Quoted Post
clicked your link, tried to find sizzle in the last 3rd of round 1. did not find it. A sizzle pick to me is someone who has a ton of hype leading up to the draft, not someone who just turns out to be good. maybe your definition isn't the same as mine.


Cordarrelle Patterson and DeAndre Hopkins were both taken at the end of Round 1 last year after Datone Jones.

Doug Martin was taken late the year before that.

Dez Bryant, Demaryius Thomas and Jahvid Best two years before Doug Martin draft. Dez had plenty of buzz.

Vonnie Holiday taken at 19... Randy Moss at 21. There was a ton of hype on Randy.

We take Raji at 9...Vikes take Harvin at 22. There was hype on Harvin.

Vernon Davis goes 1 pick after we take AJ Hawk. There was hype on Vernon Davis and certainly Crabtree.

So, the Vikes got two electrifying game changers after 20...we got Vonnie Holiday and BJ Raji sooner than the Vikings selection. That is...losing.
Ted Thompson has a reluctance to go after highly touted offensive game changers. He passed on Michael Crabtree to take BJ Raji and passed on Dez Bryant to take Bryan Bulaga. I remember just having this sinking feeling that Ted Thompson would not take Dez. He passed on him to add a guy who wasn't really a LT, even though that's where he was drafted to play, who was a RT only guy. Meanwhile, an electrifying game changing WR went next to Dallas.

There are few guys I've ever been excited about in Round 1. Sterling Sharpe, Terrell Buckley (a mistake on my part), Brent Fulwood (another mistake), and Aaron Rodgers. I wasn't excited about Clay Matthews...a one year wonder at USC who went from 160 to 230 almost overnight raising a lot of questions about him. That was a risk pick by TT, the kind he normally doesn't make, and it worked out well.
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Offline steveishere  
#45 Posted : Monday, April 28, 2014 6:43:58 PM(UTC)
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So you basically just mean take more WR in the 1st round? I really don't see why when we get good WR in 2nd round or later. Heck Boykin produced more as a receiver last year as a undrafted guy than the Vikings got out of Patterson.

I seem to remember Bulaga being hyped as a top 15ish pick before he dropped to us and I don't know how you can know what he was "drafted to be" when the guy played RT his rookie year. He's been injured but he was seen as somewhat of a steal at the time of the draft.

O-line and D-line don't get nearly as much hype in the draft as WR and RB do but I wouldn't say that in reality they are less important to the game.
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Offline nerdmann  
#46 Posted : Monday, April 28, 2014 6:44:48 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: uffda udfa Go to Quoted Post
Cordarrelle Patterson and DeAndre Hopkins were both taken at the end of Round 1 last year after Datone Jones.

Doug Martin was taken late the year before that.

Dez Bryant, Demaryius Thomas and Jahvid Best two years before Doug Martin draft. Dez had plenty of buzz.

Vonnie Holiday taken at 19... Randy Moss at 21. There was a ton of hype on Randy.

We take Raji at 9...Vikes take Harvin at 22. There was hype on Harvin.

Vernon Davis goes 1 pick after we take AJ Hawk. There was hype on Vernon Davis and certainly Crabtree.

So, the Vikes got two electrifying game changers after 20...we got Vonnie Holiday and BJ Raji sooner than the Vikings selection. That is...losing.

Ted Thompson has a reluctance to go after highly touted offensive game changers. He passed on Michael Crabtree to take BJ Raji and passed on Dez Bryant to take Bryan Bulaga. I remember just having this sinking feeling that Ted Thompson would not take Dez. He passed on him to add a guy who wasn't really a LT, even though that's where he was drafted to play, who was a RT only guy. Meanwhile, an electrifying game changing WR went next to Dallas.

There are few guys I've ever been excited about in Round 1. Sterling Sharpe, Terrell Buckley (a mistake on my part), Brent Fulwood (another mistake), and Aaron Rodgers. I wasn't excited about Clay Matthews...a one year wonder at USC who went from 160 to 230 almost overnight raising a lot of questions about him. That was a risk pick by TT, the kind he normally doesn't make, and it worked out well.


Taking Raji there also filled a major need. We'll see how he plays this year once he's actually playing in position. Crabtree and Bryant are head cases. We don't need that bullshit in Green Bay. I'll take Bulaga anyday. He's just as good as those guys, just plays a different position. And btw, I'd be fine with him at LT. Only reason they moved him to RT, was that Sherrod has longer arms.

There was plenty of buzz about Hawk too, at the time.
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Offline uffda udfa  
#47 Posted : Monday, April 28, 2014 7:32:23 PM(UTC)
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Drafting for need is not a wise strategy. I understand why they took Raji.

Bulaga did have some buzz but he wasn't ever going to be a game changer at RT. He was supposed to be a LT...that is why, IMO, he fell. He was not a LT as touted, but only projected to play RT in the pros. Taking a RT up that high was okay, I guess, but you had a game changer in Dez Bryant sitting there and you went with the safe pick. A solid RT prospect over a guy who could change a game.

I also understand the whole concept of "Packer People" although I don't really see it like many do. Ted Thompson does work hard to find guys he thinks will fit in our small market city. That is important.

Here's a nice example... Ward and Beckham are there at 21. Who is Ted Thompson going to take? This question is a little different this year considering WR is very deep, but, in general, when given that choice Ted Thompson will take a Ward type over Beckham.

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Offline mi_keys  
#48 Posted : Monday, April 28, 2014 8:08:05 PM(UTC)
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http://www.nfl.com/combi...files/b.j.-raji?id=79631

Quote:
Raji emerged as arguably the most dominant defensive lineman in the country, registering 42 tackles, 16 tackles for loss and eight sacks. An even more dominant performance throughout the week of practice at the Senior Bowl made Raji a top-10 player on some boards.


Raji was getting a ton of hype going into that draft.

This "sizzle" seems to have a moving target. If the premise is that we should do better in the first round, then fine. It would also help if each of our last 4 first rounders didn't miss significant time due to injury, but we should wish for better results nonetheless. Then again, all teams wish they had drafted better here or there.

But if "sizzle" is about game changers, exclusively at offensive skill positions, I don't know what you're on about. What exactly are Jordy Nelson, Randall Cobb and Eddie Lacy? Who cares that we took them in round 2? Does "sizzle" only count if it's round 1?

You cite a few cases involving the Vikings, one of which was before Ted Thompson's tenure. Of the other two, Harvin has never broken 1,000 yards receiving (although, 2011 had over 1,000 combined rushing and receiving) and has been victim to migraines and injuries. As a result, he's no longer on the team. Cordarrelle had a very exciting year but he still has a ways to go as a receiver. It will be interesting to see how he progresses.

But, the focus in this thread on receivers seems odd; we've had a pretty good stable of skill players around Rodgers during his tenure here.
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Offline uffda udfa  
#49 Posted : Monday, April 28, 2014 8:26:05 PM(UTC)
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Nope...sizzle can be any round. I was lamenting that our franchise, and that includes TT's tenure, seems to pass on guys who can change games.

Raji had similar maturity concerns as a guy like Dez Bryant...I realize different drafts. Raji was not known as a pass rusher nor as a guy who went full tilt on every play.

I would just like to see us grab someone who can change a game...really change it. I like Attaochu from G Tech. The guy looks like he could be a JPP type coming off the edge. Tons of upside.

Yes, WR's are the guys who change games in a passing league. We've had all world QB play for decades. It makes it harder to notice what a truly skilled WR looks like. Just because you have what we've had doesn't mean you shouldn't have tried for a Harvin type. Cobb is our closest to that. I LOVED when we took him. Lacy I wasn't so sure about but he looks like he's going to work out well.

I've watched this team for almost 35 years. I just want to see a few more hits in the first round. That shouldn't be too much to ask as the purple have done well up top vs. Green Bay. Thankfully, Green Bay seems to do well mid and late as well as UDFA and has that stud QB that changes the game. We're a QB removed from being Jacksonville...we all saw that last season. So fortunate Rodgers fell in our laps. Now, that is a game changer... a franchise changer.

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Offline buckeyepackfan  
#50 Posted : Monday, April 28, 2014 8:31:11 PM(UTC)
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Location: Lima, Ohio

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Originally Posted by: uffda udfa Go to Quoted Post
Nope...sizzle can be any round. I was lamenting that our franchise, and that includes TT's tenure, seems to pass on guys who can change games.

Raji had similar maturity concerns as a guy like Dez Bryant...I realize different drafts. Raji was not known as a pass rusher nor as a guy who went full tilt on every play.

I would just like to see us grab someone who can change a game...really change it. I like Attaochu from G Tech. The guy looks like he could be a JPP type coming off the edge. Tons of upside.

Yes, WR's are the guys who change games in a passing league. We've had all world QB play for decades. It makes it harder to notice what a truly skilled WR looks like. Just because you have what we've had doesn't mean you shouldn't have tried for a Harvin type. Cobb is our closest to that. I LOVED when we took him. Lacy I wasn't so sure about but he looks like he's going to work out well.

I've watched this team for almost 35 years. I just want to see a few more hits in the first round. That shouldn't be too much to ask as the purple have done well up top vs. Green Bay. Thankfully, Green Bay seems to do well mid and late as well as UDFA and has that stud QB that changes the game. We're a QB removed from being Jacksonville...we all saw that last season. So fortunate Rodgers fell in our laps. Now, that is a game changer... a franchise changer.



Please name me one 1st round "game changer" The Packers have missed on since Ted Thompson took over.

Drafting mostly in the 20's and lower it seems that your definition of a "game changer" isn't very often available.
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