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Offline uffda udfa  
#51 Posted : Monday, April 28, 2014 9:19:12 PM(UTC)
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I already pointed out Dez Bryant but instead we took Bulaga one pick before him.
Offline mi_keys  
#52 Posted : Monday, April 28, 2014 10:07:59 PM(UTC)
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uffda udfa said: Go to Quoted Post
Nope...sizzle can be any round. I was lamenting that our franchise, and that includes TT's tenure, seems to pass on guys who can change games.


First sizzle, now change games.

Quote:
Raji had similar maturity concerns as a guy like Dez Bryant...I realize different drafts. Raji was not known as a pass rusher nor as a guy who went full tilt on every play.


Yet you cite Dez Bryant as having "sizzle" or "game changing ability" and that such "sizzle" or "game changing ability" is why we didn't take Dez. Then why did we take Raji? He was highly touted as a top 10 pick and a dominant player. He was supposed to be a game changer for us (and was in 2010).

Quote:
I would just like to see us grab someone who can change a game...really change it. I like Attaochu from G Tech. The guy looks like he could be a JPP type coming off the edge. Tons of upside.


Game changers like Matthews and Peppers?

Quote:
Yes, WR's are the guys who change games in a passing league.


Receiver is one potential position that can change a game. If it were the only position, then Seattle wouldn't have won the Super Bowl this past year; New Orleans would probably have a dynasty going right now.

Quote:
We've had all world QB play for decades. It makes it harder to notice what a truly skilled WR looks like.


Yes, and Rodgers and Favre have helped their receivers look better. Good players make their teammates look better. But don't insinuate Jennings, Nelson and Cobb aren't skilled receivers. They may not be Megatron or Andre Johnson or Julio Jones or, to concede the point, Dez Bryant; but they have been very good receivers for us and have made a ton of plays.

Quote:
Just because you have what we've had doesn't mean you shouldn't have tried for a Harvin type. Cobb is our closest to that. I LOVED when we took him.


Not tried for a Harvin type? That's exactly what Cobb is. We've had a steady stream of receiver talent come through over the years. It's not like we've neglected the position. The bottom line is that receiver is one of the last positions Packer fans should be bitching about.

Quote:
Lacy I wasn't so sure about but he looks like he's going to work out well.


And thank god for it too. It's nice to have a game changer at the running back position when we haven't had that for years.

Quote:
I've watched this team for almost 35 years. I just want to see a few more hits in the first round. That shouldn't be too much to ask as the purple have done well up top vs. Green Bay.


We've had mostly good drafts under Thompson. Much better than most of the league during his tenure.

Quote:
Thankfully, Green Bay seems to do well mid and late as well as UDFA and has that stud QB that changes the game. We're a QB removed from being Jacksonville...we all saw that last season. So fortunate Rodgers fell in our laps. Now, that is a game changer... a franchise changer.


That's just gross hyperbole. It wasn't like Rodgers was the only one out hurt; we were riddled with injuries across the board. At one point we had Seneca Wallace completing a pass to Myles White and it wasn't the preseason.

I'll put it this way, at the height of our injury problems in the middle of the season (week 9-10 or so), if you took the equivalent injuries and applied it to the Denver Broncos they would have trotted out the following:

QB:
Brock Osweiler (backup)

WR:
Demaryius Thomas
Eric Decker (normally 3rd wr)
Andre Caldwell (normally 4th wr)

TE:
Jacob Tamme (backup)

RB:
Knowshon Moreno

OL:
LT - Chris Clark (backup who actually did play most of the year)
LG - Quentin Saulsberry (backup)
C - Steve Vallos (backup)
RG - Louis Vasquez
RT - Vinston Painter (backup)


Wouldn't exactly strike fear into the hearts of defenses league-wide and this is a team that set the record for most points in a season.
thanks Post received 3 applause.
DoddPower on 4/28/2014(UTC), play2win on 4/29/2014(UTC), earthquake on 4/29/2014(UTC)
Offline DoddPower  
#53 Posted : Monday, April 28, 2014 10:34:16 PM(UTC)
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Yeah, I don't get the recent discussion at all. Overall, I'm OK with the decisions Thompson has made. I still think Bulaga is a really good player if he could just stay healthy. I'm glad the Packers didn't draft Harvin. I like Datone Jones. I think he's going to be a solid player, too. There is always going to be better players drafted. I fully understand the decisions Ted Thompson has made, for the most part, except Justin Harrell. I never bought into that one.
Offline uffda udfa  
#54 Posted : Monday, April 28, 2014 11:19:41 PM(UTC)
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The discussion has focused, for me, on 1st round draft choices...not 2nd rounders, not Julius Peppers signing as a FA. Minnesota has landed far more 1st round sizzle/game changers whatever you'd like to say. I linked sizzle and game changer from the outset. There was nothing said, negatively, about TT's drafting other than Round 1, and it was more of the organization over the years not just TT's tenure. There was praise for our drafting after Round 1. I'm lamenting the lack of hits in Round 1, only. I never insinuated RC18 and the gang weren't fine WR's...they are not, however, and nowhere close to a Randy Moss or a Dez Bryant. The New Orleans Saints do not have a great stable of WR's. The TE is the best thing going there by a mile. Colston has been their bellcow for years, and he's not all that impressive. I would take Cobb, Nelson and James Jones would've been close to what Colston is as a WR. Matthews was outstanding... it cost us two extra picks in the 3rd round to get him but he turned out to be a game changer that is what I'm saying I want them to do more of. Clay was what? A late 1st rounder. A high rising prospect after his Sr. Bowl and the numbers for his 10 yard split being as impressive as they were. We seem to get guys who are busts in Round 1 way more than we should. No team is going to hit an insanely high percentage of 1st rounders, but you should hit some home runs every now and then. This would be a good year to do just that.

I think most non-Packers fans/objective NFL fans would tell you Green Bay is Jax without Rodgers. They were painful to watch when Aaron was no longer in the huddle with them. The Bears were as good or better without Cutler...the same was not true for Green Bay.
Offline play2win  
#55 Posted : Tuesday, April 29, 2014 5:22:14 AM(UTC)
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I think it is pretty clear where uffda is coming from.

We need immediate impact from our 1st Round pick. It has been 5 years since we have had that. We need that player who can step in and make a difference for us every single game.

These are the players who I believe will be available to us when we pick who can make that difference and impact:

Ryan Shazier
CJ Mosley
Deone Buccanon
Kelvin Benjamin

The last two according to recent mocks may seem a bit of a reach, but who cares? I would love for Ted to add one or more of these 4 players. All of them could step right in and immediately make us a better team.
Offline mi_keys  
#56 Posted : Tuesday, April 29, 2014 6:21:49 AM(UTC)
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uffda udfa said: Go to Quoted Post
The discussion has focused, for me, on 1st round draft choices...not 2nd rounders, not Julius Peppers signing as a FA.


Two posts earlier...

Quote:
Nope...sizzle can be any round. I was lamenting that our franchise, and that includes TT's tenure, seems to pass on guys who can change games.


It is then pointed out that we have quite a few players with "sizzle" or that can "change a game" and then it's back to the 1st round focus.

And if Ted is willing to take a risk in free agency to bring in a "sizzle player," or is willing to do it in early round 2 and everywhere else in the draft, and, hell, even does it with Raji and Matthews in round 1; then I don't see how one can continue to make the assertion that they are willfully avoiding "game changers."

Quote:
Minnesota has landed far more 1st round sizzle/game changers whatever you'd like to say. I linked sizzle and game changer from the outset. There was nothing said, negatively, about TT's drafting other than Round 1, and it was more of the organization over the years not just TT's tenure. There was praise for our drafting after Round 1. I'm lamenting the lack of hits in Round 1, only. I never insinuated RC18 and the gang weren't fine WR's...they are not, however, and nowhere close to a Randy Moss or a Dez Bryant. The New Orleans Saints do not have a great stable of WR's. The TE is the best thing going there by a mile. Colston has been their bellcow for years, and he's not all that impressive. I would take Cobb, Nelson and James Jones would've been close to what Colston is as a WR. Matthews was outstanding... it cost us two extra picks in the 3rd round to get him but he turned out to be a game changer that is what I'm saying I want them to do more of. Clay was what? A late 1st rounder. A high rising prospect after his Sr. Bowl and the numbers for his 10 yard split being as impressive as they were. We seem to get guys who are busts in Round 1 way more than we should. No team is going to hit an insanely high percentage of 1st rounders, but you should hit some home runs every now and then. This would be a good year to do just that.


And if you wanted to have an honest discussion about 1st round picks, then fine. I said in my first post you can make that point; but then why all this dancing around "sizzle."

After we won Super Bowl 45, we would have looked at TT's first round history and saw:

'05: Rodgers - grand fucking slam
'06: Hawk - has been a steady player for us
'07: Harrell - bust (injury w/ injury history in college)
'08: N/A (traded out)
'09: Raji - home run (at the time, this has since changed)
'09: Matthews - home run
'10: Bulaga - good pick

At the time, his first round record looked pretty good with really only one miss. Now we look at it and have to make some earlier revisions to get:

'05: Rodgers - grand fucking slam
'06: Hawk - has been a steady player for us
'07: Harrell - bust (injury w/ injury history in college)
'08: N/A (traded out)
'09: Raji - flash in the pan
'09: Matthews - home run (with recent injury problems)
'10: Bulaga - good pick (held back by injuries)
'11: Sherrod - injured (w/ no significant injury history in college)
'12: Nick Perry - injured (w/ no significant injury history in college)
'13: Datone Jones - hasn't played much, slowed by preseason injury

It would be nice if one of our first round picks could stay healthy.

Quote:
I think most non-Packers fans/objective NFL fans would tell you Green Bay is Jax without Rodgers. They were painful to watch when Aaron was no longer in the huddle with them. The Bears were as good or better without Cutler...the same was not true for Green Bay.


No, they wouldn't. Going into last season, would you have traded any of our position groups for Jacksonville's?

And of course it hurt the Packers more to lose Rodgers than the Bears to lose Cutler. Rodgers is actually good. That would be like expecting losing Dujuan Harris to hurt the Packers as much (pre-Lacy) as losing Peterson hurt the Vikings.
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DoddPower on 4/29/2014(UTC)
Offline buckeyepackfan  
#57 Posted : Tuesday, April 29, 2014 7:57:31 AM(UTC)
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uffda udfa said: Go to Quoted Post
I already pointed out Dez Bryant but instead we took Bulaga one pick before him.


I don't see Bryant as a "game changer", he might have been touted that as a rookie, but with all the baggage and him being a "head case", I am sure glad Ted passed on him.

No room for Divas in Green Bay.
Offline DoddPower  
#58 Posted : Tuesday, April 29, 2014 8:35:36 AM(UTC)
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buckeyepackfan said: Go to Quoted Post
I don't see Bryant as a "game changer", he might have been touted that as a rookie, but with all the baggage and him being a "head case", I am sure glad Ted passed on him.

No room for Divas in Green Bay.


I certainly don't mind that the Packers didn't draft Bryant. He's a perfect fit in Dallas. The Packers are just fine with the receiving core they have had and will continue to have, especially with the addition of the Eddie Lacy/James Starks combination.

The discussion seems silly to me, really. I don't care if every first round pick sucks as long as the team is continually good, always in the playoffs, and wins the occasional Super Bowl. What more can a fan ask for? It'd be great to have more success out of the first round picks, but many contributed to the 2010 Championship. Attempting to use the Vikings of an example of anything is laughable. So they have drafted a few good players. Good for them. I would take the Packers team every time. Most teams would be totally different without their elite franchise quarterback. Denver is a good example of that, among others. I think the Packers could still win 7-9 games if they stayed relatively healthy without Aaron Rodgers. That's not too bad for 7th round pick quarterbacks or UDFAs. The Packers are not the Jaguars. Another silly sentiment.

Moving on.
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play2win on 4/29/2014(UTC)
Offline play2win  
#59 Posted : Tuesday, April 29, 2014 11:06:56 AM(UTC)
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DoddPower said: Go to Quoted Post
I certainly don't mind that the Packers didn't draft Bryant. He's a perfect fit in Dallas. The Packers are just fine with the receiving core they have had and will continue to have, especially with the addition of the Eddie Lacy/James Starks combination.

The discussion seems silly to me, really. I don't care if every first round pick sucks as long as the team is continually good, always in the playoffs, and wins the occasional Super Bowl. What more can a fan ask for? It'd be great to have more success out of the first round picks, but many contributed to the 2010 Championship. Attempting to use the Vikings of an example of anything is laughable. So they have drafted a few good players. Good for them. I would take the Packers team every time. Most teams would be totally different without their elite franchise quarterback. Denver is a good example of that, among others. I think the Packers could still win 7-9 games if they stayed relatively healthy without Aaron Rodgers. That's not too bad for 7th round pick quarterbacks or UDFAs. The Packers are not the Jaguars. Another silly sentiment.

Moving on.


One of the biggest concerns here that I believe is being overlooked, is the importance of that R1 slotting with regards to landing prospective top, Pro Bowl-level talent on your team. The percentages for landing those real game changers and top talents are abnormally skewed into the very top of the draft, and trickle down significantly from there.

We can't afford missing in this area, but reality is this is not an exact science, and every GM makes a mistake or two along the way.

Ted and his staff really do pretty well early, especially picking so late in each round. I believe they could look to try to improve their work in the 1st and 2nd rounds just by avoiding the dud picks, but those seem to have tapered off of late. I would say Worthy, Perry and Jones have been my biggest disappointments recently, and Jones really didn't get much of a chance last year. Sherrod was just plain bad luck on the injury front. I've never fully reconciled Mike Neal and his wasted first 3 seasons, but I'm holding out hope he can make good on that this season, just like I am for the others who haven't shown well to this point, for whatever reason.

Our BIG hits:
Round 1: Rodgers 2005, Hawk 2006, Raji 2009, Matthews 2009, Bulaga 2010
Round 2: Collins 2005, Jennings 2006, Nelson 2008, Cobb 2011, Hayward 2012, Lacy 2013

Our BIG misses:
Round 1: Harrell 2007
Round 2: Colledge 2006, Jackson 2007, Brohm 2008, Lee 2008, Worthy 2012

Evaluation Incomplete:
Round 1: Sherrrod 2011, Perry 2012, Jones 2013
Round 2: Neal 2010

Keeping our players healthy would be a big step in the right direction. Here's to GB landing a real superstar this draft in R1.
Offline buckeyepackfan  
#60 Posted : Tuesday, April 29, 2014 1:51:06 PM(UTC)
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play2win said: Go to Quoted Post
One of the biggest concerns here that I believe is being overlooked, is the importance of that R1 slotting with regards to landing prospective top, Pro Bowl-level talent on your team. The percentages for landing those real game changers and top talents are abnormally skewed into the very top of the draft, and trickle down significantly from there.

We can't afford missing in this area, but reality is this is not an exact science, and every GM makes a mistake or two along the way.

Ted and his staff really do pretty well early, especially picking so late in each round. I believe they could look to try to improve their work in the 1st and 2nd rounds just by avoiding the dud picks, but those seem to have tapered off of late. I would say Worthy, Perry and Jones have been my biggest disappointments recently, and Jones really didn't get much of a chance last year. Sherrod was just plain bad luck on the injury front. I've never fully reconciled Mike Neal and his wasted first 3 seasons, but I'm holding out hope he can make good on that this season, just like I am for the others who haven't shown well to this point, for whatever reason.

Our BIG hits:
Round 1: Rodgers 2005, Hawk 2006, Raji 2009, Matthews 2009, Bulaga 2010
Round 2: Collins 2005, Jennings 2006, Nelson 2008, Cobb 2011, Hayward 2012, Lacy 2013

Our BIG misses:
Round 1: Harrell 2007
Round 2: Colledge 2006, Jackson 2007, Brohm 2008, Lee 2008, Worthy 2012

Evaluation Incomplete:
Round 1: Sherrrod 2011, Perry 2012, Jones 2013
Round 2: Neal 2010

Keeping our players healthy would be a big step in the right direction. Here's to GB landing a real superstar this draft in R1.


#1 lookout Mrs. Colledge is gonna come looking for you!!!!! [laughing] maybe a friend or 2 will be with her. Colledge wasn't a big miss, he was a solid starter, when with The Packers and after he left.

#2 Why isn't Worthy listed with Sherrod, Perry and Jones? Injuries have slowed his progress, IMHO. to call him a big miss after just 2 years is a mistake.

#3 Brandon Jackson was pretty damn good RB, just not an every down back, when James Starks came on late in 2010, Jackson was able to show he could be that "change of pace" guy, that helped The packers to a SB.
Wouldn't call him a big miss, not a big hit either, but he contributed much more than he gets credit for.

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DoddPower on 4/29/2014(UTC)
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