Discussion Board
Welcome Guest! You can login or register. Login or Register.

Options
Go to last post Go to first unread
play2win  
#1 Posted : Sunday, April 27, 2014 11:28:37 AM(UTC)
Well, we are getting closer to draft day, and a lot of mocks and commentaries have been made on many draft prospects.

One thing that I am seeing that is a bit concerning is a seeming willingness to overlook shortcomings in player speed and quickness.

Borland looks to be an incredibly instinctive player at ILB, as does Skov. Both, however, are very slow players. As much as I love the raw instincts for the game, I feel this lack of speed will be a huge detriment at the pro level, where everyone is faster.

In all cases, give me the player with both instincts and speed to make plays at the pro level. If the player has instincts but lacks speed, no thanks.

Our run D really needs some speed in the middle, ILB alongside Hawk. Two of our biggest concerns should be stopping players like Adrian Peterson and Colin Kaepernick. How are we going to do that if we add players who can't keep up?

I would say the same should hold true at S and on the DL. Speed should be trumping these decisions. Without that, I just don't see how we can improve. One of the attributes that set Nick Collins apart, aside from his ball skills and instincts, was his incredible speed to make and finish plays. I want to see that again at S for GB. I want to see way more speed at ILB, and more speed on our DL.

Players like Borland and Skov are not going to be as successful at the pro level - that's my guess, and they will get killed in coverage. This draft for GB, speed should be a premium.
porky88  
#2 Posted : Sunday, April 27, 2014 2:33:15 PM(UTC)
Ryan Shazier of Ohio State sounds like your kind of guy then. He runs a 4.40. He is a three-down linebacker. He can play outside and inside linebacker. The more you see, the more you like.

I actually think Shayne Skov has the athleticism to thrive in the NFL. He suffered a bad knee injury a few years ago, but finally began to flash his athleticism near the end of the season, especially in the Rose Bowl. His pre-draft process disappointed, but I tend to put more stock in his Rose Bowl performance than his pro day.
play2win  
#3 Posted : Sunday, April 27, 2014 3:47:33 PM(UTC)
You're right porky88.

I'm just concerned at many positions where speed makes players special at the NFL level, but some lacking that still have great success in the college ranks with guts and instincts, and those guys are all over these boards.

I guess with Borland and Skov both ranked in many mocks at R2, that gives me great concern. Not unlike some high ranking CBs with really poor ball skills. Makes little sense, right?

We've seen where a lack of speed really hurt when Hawk played a little heavier in 2011-12. As much as I enjoyed seeing Micah Hyde's play last year, his lack of speed was quite noticeable. Great player, great instincts, natural abilities to play the game, but his speed was a bit lacking. Maybe that can change for the better in such a young player.

We've also witnessed where exceptional speed can overcome some other misgivings. Look at Sam Shields. The guy is not the biggest CB, but I would put him up right now with just about anyone in the NFL, mainly due to his big quicks. That speed allows him to make some exceptional plays. Shields has developed some great ball skills, but that speed coupled with the ball skills makes him effective against much larger WRs. That makes Shields a very special player.
steveishere  
#4 Posted : Monday, April 28, 2014 2:08:28 AM(UTC)
instincts and quickness > 40 time for ILB. I care a heck of a lot more if a guy can quickly read whats happening and get on the move than if he can keep up 40 yards down the field. We could use more speed in the middle of our D for sure but I just don't agree that 40 time = speed. Id add the ability to shed blocks over 40 time too. I've been watching Skov some and he really doesn't look like a slow player to me at all.
play2win  
#5 Posted : Monday, April 28, 2014 4:48:30 AM(UTC)
Steve, I agree instincts > 40 times.

My point is putting premiums on those players who have both. I like both Borland and Skov. But they share equally in one flaw, and that is pass coverage. Neither player can keep up with TEs/receivers in the middle, and that is mostly due to a lack of speed - at the Div I level. How much worse will this be at the pro level?

Add, Skov has good size. Borland is really short <6'. It's not just these two players. A lack of speed is dropping the stock of Anthony Barr and Kyle Van Noy as well.

No question, the players listed are incredible talents, all highly instinctive. I just think the speed issue matters. Maybe more than we think. We'll know more a week from Thursday-Friday how teams will factor that into their draft status.
nerdmann  
#6 Posted : Monday, April 28, 2014 4:54:52 AM(UTC)
"Luck follows speed."

"You can't coach speed."

That said, two guys who were criticized in the draft for not having enough speed were Greg Jennings and Jerry Rice. They turned out ok.
play2win  
#7 Posted : Monday, April 28, 2014 5:13:49 AM(UTC)
nerdmann said: Go to Quoted Post
"Luck follows speed."

"You can't coach speed."

That said, two guys who were criticized in the draft for not having enough speed were Greg Jennings and Jerry Rice. They turned out ok.


Well, if I'm tired of being run on at will by Kaepernick and AP amongst others (PHI)... I'm drafting a player with both instincts and speed to best counter that.

I do think "bigger and faster" is a mantra we should be holding to this draft, with the only exception being a slot WR or KR.
uffda udfa  
#8 Posted : Monday, April 28, 2014 5:59:23 AM(UTC)
Speed is very important without question. However, the metrics employed by the NFL to measure it oftentimes are meaningless.

Borland's 40 time was 4.83...up toward DE territory. Clay Matthews ran 4.62

The 3 cone times 7.18 for Borland and 6.90 for Clay.

One guy will be inside the other needs to blow off the edge.

These measurements are one moment in time without football pads on. Plus, they're chasing air, not football players. The NFL is littered with stories of guys who just weren't fast enough who had great NFL careers.

I think part of the reason Alex Smith was drafted over Aaron Rodgers was the 3 cone time. Aaron was 7.39 to Smith's 6.82... that is more than a half second difference. Does it appear that Alex Smith is that much more elusive in the pocket? A half second is incredibly substantial. Borland is almost 2 hundredths of second slower than Clay over 40 yards, and almost 2 hundredths of a second slower on 3 cone.

Many of these speed projects don't have anywhere near the instincts. How many hundredths of a second does that cost them? NFL doesn't measure for that. It seems clear that a guy like Borland has all world instincts and pedestrian speed. The combo can work if instincts are truly elite. If his instincts weren't incredible then his 4.83 is really going to show itself.

Smart, instinctive and sold out work for me vs. dumb, confused, and football doesn't really matter but they can run like a deer.

Ultimately, like you wish, it would be best to find a guy who can run... and has more height and longer arms. Zach Thomas would tell you not to be so worried.

steveishere  
#9 Posted : Monday, April 28, 2014 6:10:08 AM(UTC)
Even pass coverage for a LB is more about his reaction time and reading the QB and the play than it is about 40 time. How often is a ILB running down the seam on a super fast TE with no safety help? Maybe 1 or 2 times a season? Most of ILB coverage is inside the hash marks or running out to the flat on a RB. Speed helps with that stuff but I really wouldn't say it's the main thing you look for.
mi_keys  
#10 Posted : Monday, April 28, 2014 7:02:06 AM(UTC)
This is one reason why I like CJ Mosley: he has the instincts AND has pretty good athleticism.

That said, I'd like to add some speed to the team but I don't want them to go out of the way to do so.
nerdmann  
#11 Posted : Monday, April 28, 2014 7:47:55 AM(UTC)
steveishere said: Go to Quoted Post
Even pass coverage for a LB is more about his reaction time and reading the QB and the play than it is about 40 time. How often is a ILB running down the seam on a super fast TE with no safety help? Maybe 1 or 2 times a season? Most of ILB coverage is inside the hash marks or running out to the flat on a RB. Speed helps with that stuff but I really wouldn't say it's the main thing you look for.


If a dude is slow, it's probably gonna happen to him more often than it would to a fast dude. But the frozen tundra tends to slow people down a bit, so that mitigates the need for speed to some degree.
play2win  
#12 Posted : Monday, May 12, 2014 8:08:36 AM(UTC)
uffda udfa said: Go to Quoted Post
Speed is very important without question. However, the metrics employed by the NFL to measure it oftentimes are meaningless.

Borland's 40 time was 4.83...up toward DE territory. Clay Matthews ran 4.62

The 3 cone times 7.18 for Borland and 6.90 for Clay.

One guy will be inside the other needs to blow off the edge.

These measurements are one moment in time without football pads on. Plus, they're chasing air, not football players. The NFL is littered with stories of guys who just weren't fast enough who had great NFL careers.

I think part of the reason Alex Smith was drafted over Aaron Rodgers was the 3 cone time. Aaron was 7.39 to Smith's 6.82... that is more than a half second difference. Does it appear that Alex Smith is that much more elusive in the pocket? A half second is incredibly substantial. Borland is almost 2 hundredths of second slower than Clay over 40 yards, and almost 2 hundredths of a second slower on 3 cone.

Many of these speed projects don't have anywhere near the instincts. How many hundredths of a second does that cost them? NFL doesn't measure for that. It seems clear that a guy like Borland has all world instincts and pedestrian speed. The combo can work if instincts are truly elite. If his instincts weren't incredible then his 4.83 is really going to show itself.

Smart, instinctive and sold out work for me vs. dumb, confused, and football doesn't really matter but they can run like a deer.

Ultimately, like you wish, it would be best to find a guy who can run... and has more height and longer arms. Zach Thomas would tell you not to be so worried.



uffda, you hit on something here that I feel is really important, and I've been wanting to address.

I love a player with speed. Even more if he has the heightened instincts to play his position.

I hate 40 times. Especially in discussing a player and his level of speed.

Why the hell doesn't the NFL run all 40 times on grass with full gear on?

That could drastically change a player's fortunes. Running on a track in shorts is, to me, absolutely meaningless.

How do we know one player with a blazing 40 isn't actually slower than another in a "Gear On" 40?

I think I should present this to the NFL: the GO 40...
uffda udfa  
#13 Posted : Monday, May 12, 2014 8:22:16 AM(UTC)
I'm with you on wearing full pads. Not sure about having them outside on grass. I'd want to know what their full potential is. If I'm a dome team, I love it the way it is. You just know some guys are going to fly with the equipment on and off and some who'll fly with it off but are hindered, substantially, with it on.

It's also one moment in time. Yes, they run it more than once, but it's day specific...hard telling if a guy is sore that day, or slept well, etc. All those things factor.

Speed is incredibly important and I talk about 40 time so much Dakota thinks I'm pulling the goalie over here but it is a measure that should be weighed a fair amount. If it was just 40 then it wouldn't be that helpful but they break it down into splits. IE:Abby is faster than Adams in the 40 and also in the 10 yard split which is important. WR isn't always running 40 yards, in fact, rarely, but he'll run 10 quite often.

Give me a guy like my new buddy, LaDarius Perkins. Instincts and feel for the game plus speed. Love that.

play2win  
#14 Posted : Monday, May 12, 2014 8:31:47 AM(UTC)
They should have Grass GO 40s and Turf GO 40s. Full gear, not just pads. Only way to really know how fast they will be on the field of play. Would eliminate a lot of guessing, and would make for a far more accurate, applicable measurable.
wpr  
#15 Posted : Monday, May 12, 2014 8:51:47 AM(UTC)
GB ought to make the most of their home field advantage. Let the grass grow long. REAL LONG.

For years the Cubs had the infield grass at Wrigley longer than most teams. It slowed down ground balls that players hit and allowed their older, slower infielders to get to the ball instead of watching it roll into the outfield.

If the grass in Lambeau was 4 inches tall the Packer DBs would have no trouble keeping up with the fleet WRs around the league.
Rss Feed
Users browsing this topic
Guest
Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

Notification

Icon
Error

Fan Shout
wpr (3h) : Hope you had a great day Z.
uffda udfa (6h) : Happy Birthday, Z.
macbob (12h) : Z2C-Hope you had a wonderful birthday! Thanks for providing us a great place to hang out.
Smokey (23-Sep) : Anyone watching the Utah vs Arizona tonight .
Cheesey (22-Sep) : No..."Fired FROM the forge!"LOL!
Smokey (21-Sep) : A "Forged in Fire" wash out ? LOL
Cheesey (21-Sep) : Zero got cut??? I TOLD him not to play with knives!
uffda udfa (21-Sep) : Spriggs to IR.
uffda udfa (21-Sep) : Nick Perry having surgery on finger likely out this week.
Zero2Cool (21-Sep) : Ravens add RB John Crockett from the practice squad to active.
Zero2Cool (21-Sep) : No Cobb this sunday??
buckeyepackfan (21-Sep) : Was a nice run Zero, always that chance they bring you back! :)
Zero2Cool (21-Sep) : I did.
gbguy20 (20-Sep) : francois is back. so who got cut?
Zero2Cool (20-Sep) : Football Sunday at 8:30AM CT ...nice
beast (20-Sep) : Would of had to give us a draft pick if they kept him. They just wanted him until someone else got off a suspension.
gbguy20 (20-Sep) : surprised they didn't keep him until they played us
Zero2Cool (19-Sep) : Cowboys have waived linebacker Jayrone Elliott, who was acquired in a trade from the Green Bay Packers
Zero2Cool (19-Sep) : ClayMatthews52 is awfully close to setting the #Packers all-time sack record.
uffda udfa (19-Sep) : Pelissero: Banged up on o-line, #Packers worked out 3 today, per source: Fahn Cooper, Givens Price and Brandon Thomas.
Zero2Cool (19-Sep) : Yup, PFT flips to whatever gets clickys
Zero2Cool (19-Sep) : Reuben Foster (ankle) sheds walking boot (and some wanted him as a Packers player!)
gbguy20 (19-Sep) : pft was raving abot gb last week
Zero2Cool (19-Sep) : Bash packers = ratings. nothing more. unreal how dumb some places are
Zero2Cool (19-Sep) : PFT is stupid
uffda udfa (19-Sep) : from pft.com rankings: 6. Packers (1-1; No. 1): Take away Rodgers, and the Packers wouldn’t win a game.
uffda udfa (19-Sep) : Yes. Sorry.
Zero2Cool (19-Sep) : "We are hypnotized by the talent of Aaron Rodgers" | @ColinCowherd
Zero2Cool (19-Sep) : another damn hurricane???
wpr (19-Sep) : So you are saying Jordy is 150-150 for Sunday U2?
uffda udfa (19-Sep) : Jordy 50-50 for Sunday per Schefter.
uffda udfa (19-Sep) : Jordy 50-50 for Sunday per Schefter.
uffda udfa (19-Sep) : Jordy 50-50 for Sunday per Schefter.
Zero2Cool (19-Sep) : Kidding, you might be right. I don't know.
Zero2Cool (19-Sep) : hahaha no
Please sign in to use Fan Shout
2017 Packers Schedule
Sunday, Sep 10 @ 3:25 PM
SEAHAWKS
Sunday, Sep 17 @ 7:30 PM
at Falcons
Sunday, Sep 24 @ 3:25 PM
BENGALS
Thursday, Sep 28 @ 7:25 PM
BEARS
Sunday, Oct 8 @ 3:25 PM
at Cowboys
Sunday, Oct 15 @ 12:00 PM
at Vikings
Sunday, Oct 22 @ 12:00 PM
SAINTS
Sunday, Oct 29 @ 12:00 AM
- BYE -
Monday, Nov 6 @ 7:30 PM
LIONS
Sunday, Nov 12 @ 12:00 PM
at Bears
Sunday, Nov 19 @ 12:00 PM
RAVENS
Sunday, Nov 26 @ 7:30 PM
at Steelers
Sunday, Dec 3 @ 12:00 PM
BUCCANEERS
Sunday, Dec 10 @ 12:00 PM
at Browns
Sunday, Dec 17 @ 12:00 PM
at Panthers
Saturday, Dec 23 @ 7:30 PM
VIKINGS
Sunday, Dec 31 @ 12:00 PM
at Lions
Think About It
Think About It
Recent Topics
50m / Green Bay Packers Talk / Barfarn

21h / Green Bay Packers Talk / Smokey

21h / Green Bay Packers Talk / Smokey

22-Sep / Green Bay Packers Talk / Smokey

22-Sep / Green Bay Packers Talk / steveishere

22-Sep / Green Bay Packers Talk / DoddPower

21-Sep / Green Bay Packers Talk / nerdmann

21-Sep / Around The NFL / Cheesey

21-Sep / Green Bay Packers Talk / DoddPower

20-Sep / Green Bay Packers Talk / nerdmann

20-Sep / Green Bay Packers Talk / yooperfan

20-Sep / Green Bay Packers Talk / wpr

19-Sep / Green Bay Packers Talk / Poppa San

19-Sep / Green Bay Packers Talk / Dulak

19-Sep / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

Headlines