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Offline play2win  
#51 Posted : Saturday, June 21, 2014 1:51:38 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: uffda udfa Go to Quoted Post
Almost everyone is wrong. 40 time is highly valued when it comes to the drafting of prospects. To skewer me for valuing them, also, is ironic.

The evidence doesn't back my assertions? No, there is no evidence that backs yours. It probably matters, though, exactly what issue we're debating. I'm pointing to the idea that the NFL community values 40 times very highly. Your rail against me, is perceived, by me, as a rail against the NFL community which I'm not a part of.

You can try to obfuscate the issues with Borland but you know his 40 time was a monumental negative against him. Let me interject Michael Sam into this discussion. This has been painted as an issue as something other than what it actually is. Go look at Michael Sam's 3 cone time and then see where it fits among other prospects. I don't need a lecture from you, and others, how 3 cone isn't really important. Just look at his number and do a little research and you'll have a giant hint as to why he went undrafted.

Will be interesting to see what the Packers value more... A big strong WR like Harper, or a speedy measurables guy like Janis. Unless Abbrederis goes Ricky Elmore, he's a lock to make the 53 to me.

Maybe, they'll value neither and both won't make it.


No one here is saying 40 times are not highly valued in drafting players. I think everyone here is pretty much in line with a player's 40 time not being a sole consideration in choosing to draft them, but we understand there is a value attached to them, and speed is significantly important. Other factors come into play too, and some clearly carry greater weight in their decision making. Who was doing the measuring? How was the time recorded? Some teams have a personal preference to measure their own, for many reasons.

You simply buy into whatever a Combine or Pro Day result may be because that is pretty much all you have to go on as a fan. Sure, those give an indication of what we might expect from a player regarding how fast he is, but it is not a comprehensive factor in how he will perform as a football player. Teams have other means at their disposals for determining a player's game speed, and they pay good money for those. Private workouts, scouting visits, etc. They also are not locked into a 40 time as a complete representation of a player's on field abilities.

I think all of us recognize the great speed Sam Shields plays with, and how that can set him apart from many of the opposing players he covers. Hell, I love that speed. I love fast players too, but not just fast. I want the most complete football players we can land on a Packers roster. But, the 40 time is not all there is to love about Shields' ability to play the game. Same is true for all of the other players you have been whining about for the last month since the draft. Really, it is tiresome. Enough already with 40 times. We get it. We all want fast players. Some of us are willing to recognize a 40 time is not going to determine exactly how well a player will perform on the field.

The 40 isn't everything.
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Offline Dexter_Sinister  
#52 Posted : Saturday, June 21, 2014 2:41:06 PM(UTC)
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3 cone and short shuttle give some indication of quickness. Hayward for example was very good with those measurable.

The vertical and bench reps are a good indication of power.

40 gives you an indication of top end speed, but most routes are less than 40 yards in a straight line.

Abbredaris is a good example of quick vs fast. He runs some pretty sick routes.

But no coach in his right mind will take a tape measure over video tape.

For example, Taylor Mays had some incredible measurable. Height, weight, speeed... he sucked as a player though.
I want to go out like my Grandpa did. Peacefully in his sleep.

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StarrMax1 on 6/21/2014(UTC)
Offline uffda udfa  
#53 Posted : Saturday, June 21, 2014 4:00:21 PM(UTC)
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I hope you read that article...it was excellent. It focused on Shane Skov...a guy with great tape but ran a terrible 40 (injured) and did not get drafted. I believe some here were pining for him during the draft.

This is a critical component of the 40 time... as noted by the article... the draft cards have NAME... HEIGHT....WEIGHT...and 40 TIME...nothing else. 40 time appears to be pretty important. Anyway, here's what Niners GM Trent Baalke had to say about how the Niners use the 40 from that linked article:

"We rate their play speed, then go to a pro day or the combine and get the real time," Baalke said. "You hope they match. What's hard is when you like a player and think he plays fast, and then he runs slow. Then you have a real tough dilemma to sort through."

If I'm to talke Baalke at face value it appears that tape gets trumped by 40 time in shorts when it shows slower than what they thought. A guy the Niners may have been high on due what they felt his play speed was all of a sudden isn't quite such a hot prospect when the guy goes out and runs a slow 40 time. Hopefully, our guys who clocked unimpressive 40's are much faster than the stopwatch says. As Ted Thompson said of Adams and his 4.56...that's not our time. I'm guessing Ted Thompson timed him much better only reinforcing the idea that 40 time is pretty imperative.

Chris Harper ran 4.38 at his pro day. Will be fun to watch him in pre-season and see if he looks more like 4.38 or more toward his below average speed. Same with Janis... will he be as fast? I know someone out there who thinks we can't learn anything by seeing guys on TV, bu I have a feeling we'll be able to figure this one out with our idiot box.
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Offline uffda udfa  
#54 Posted : Saturday, June 21, 2014 4:00:43 PM(UTC)
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Duplicate post.
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Offline Dulak  
#55 Posted : Sunday, June 22, 2014 3:50:22 AM(UTC)
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I never though the packers really hired fast 40 time receivers.

IMO we looked for the total package.

Im quite interested in how our WRs do this year. I see only nelson and cobb as a lock - rest are up in the air; ok maybe our 2nd round pick. Wish we kept jones thou. Who knows maybe I wont care after seeing these new guys play.

Offline play2win  
#56 Posted : Sunday, June 22, 2014 5:16:24 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Dulak Go to Quoted Post
I never though the packers really hired fast 40 time receivers.

IMO we looked for the total package.

Im quite interested in how our WRs do this year. I see only nelson and cobb as a lock - rest are up in the air; ok maybe our 2nd round pick. Wish we kept jones thou. Who knows maybe I wont care after seeing these new guys play.



Dulak, you really won't care at all. The amount of talent they have added to the position is insanely good. ! I liked Jones too, but they look like they have made some significant upgrades.
Offline StarrMax1  
#57 Posted : Sunday, June 22, 2014 5:55:23 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: uffda udfa Go to Quoted Post
I hope you read that article...it was excellent. It focused on Shane Skov...a guy with great tape but ran a terrible 40 (injured) and did not get drafted. I believe some here were pining for him during the draft.

This is a critical component of the 40 time... as noted by the article... the draft cards have NAME... HEIGHT....WEIGHT...and 40 TIME...nothing else. 40 time appears to be pretty important. Anyway, here's what Niners GM Trent Baalke had to say about how the Niners use the 40 from that linked article:

"We rate their play speed, then go to a pro day or the combine and get the real time," Baalke said. "You hope they match. What's hard is when you like a player and think he plays fast, and then he runs slow. Then you have a real tough dilemma to sort through."

If I'm to talke Baalke at face value it appears that tape gets trumped by 40 time in shorts when it shows slower than what they thought. A guy the Niners may have been high on due what they felt his play speed was all of a sudden isn't quite such a hot prospect when the guy goes out and runs a slow 40 time. Hopefully, our guys who clocked unimpressive 40's are much faster than the stopwatch says. As Ted Thompson said of Adams and his 4.56...that's not our time. I'm guessing Ted Thompson timed him much better only reinforcing the idea that 40 time is pretty imperative.

Chris Harper ran 4.38 at his pro day. Will be fun to watch him in pre-season and see if he looks more like 4.38 or more toward his below average speed. Same with Janis... will he be as fast? I know someone out there who thinks we can't learn anything by seeing guys on TV, bu I have a feeling we'll be able to figure this one out with our idiot box.


You do realize you are arguing with yourself.

Nobody is saying a players 40 time isn't important, DURING THE DRAFT PERIOD.

You just stated "it will be interesting to see if Harper looks more like 4.38 or more toward his below average speed."

Maybe you don't even realize you switched from talking about a straight 40 time and started talking about "football speed".

There is a HUGE difference.

Every player I have ever seen interviewed says pretty much the same thing, they go to the combines and do all these drills to either improve their draft status or in some cases just to get noticed(I:E: Janis).

To a player they all say now that they either were drafted or invited to a camp, it doesn't matter how they got there, they are just glad they can finally put on the pads and show their perspective teams that they can play the game at a Profesional level.

Can someone tell me,(because I have never been able to attend an OTA or TC practice), how long do coaches spend on timing players in the 40 yd dash at these practices?

Message modified by user Sunday, June 22, 2014 6:26:35 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline play2win  
#58 Posted : Sunday, June 22, 2014 6:51:09 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: StarrMax1 Go to Quoted Post

Can someone tell me,(because I have never been able to attend an OTA or TC practice), how long do coaches spend on timing players in the 40 yd dash at these practices?


Zero. Laughing Not a second...

Message modified by user Sunday, June 22, 2014 9:45:42 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Online texaspackerbacker  
#59 Posted : Sunday, June 22, 2014 8:13:10 AM(UTC)
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Harper was one of the reasons (along with Boykin and the 2 or 3 or more others we already had) that I really didn't think Ted would draft a WR, much less two (make that three). I'm happy with Adams, and very pleased we got Abbrederis, but it still creates a problem or at least a question mark.

If you assume the top five are fairly sure, then as was said, it's Jaris v Harper as well as the others. Odds are, though, somebody will get some kind of injury that either is or can be stretched worthy of IR or PUP.

With so many "skilled players" (I don't like that term), the question becomes how many TEs, WRs, and RBs can we keep without messing with depth other places?.

My early and very shaky prediction is Harper does not make the team and Jaris goes to the PS - for a while, at least. That leaves 5 WRs, 3 RBs, and maybe as many as 5 TEs.
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Offline DakotaT  
#60 Posted : Sunday, June 22, 2014 1:48:37 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: texaspackerbacker Go to Quoted Post


My early and very shaky prediction is Harper does not make the team and Jaris goes to the PS - for a while, at least. That leaves 5 WRs, 3 RBs, and maybe as many as 5 TEs.


I don't know why we need 5 mediocre tight ends, when we should bring in a hammerhead fullback not named John Kuhn just to block for the three headed monster named Lacy/Starks/Harris.
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Offline sschind  
#61 Posted : Sunday, June 22, 2014 2:01:12 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: play2win Go to Quoted Post
Dulak, you really won't care at all. The amount of talent they have added to the position is insanely good. ! I liked Jones too, but they look like they have made some significant upgrades.


I'm pretty confident that one of these guys will put up numbers as good or even better than Jones would have had he stayed here. In that respect I suppose it is safe to say we won't miss him. On the other hand I think those numbers will be because our #3 WR will put up those numbers regardless of who it is.

Where we will miss Jones is if Nelson or Cobb miss significant playing time. I feel that Jones could have stepped in and been our #2 or #1 WR without much question. I don't feel that any of the others will be able to do that this season.

Odds are that out of the 5 (Boykin, Harper and the rookies) one of them will eventually reach the level where I would have the confidence in him like I would have had in Jones this year but not this year and it is possible by that point we will be looking to replace our our #1 or #2 guys.

That means that if Cobb and Nelson remain healthy all season we will probably not miss James Jones but if either or God forbid both of them get hurt for any length of time our lack of experience at the position will definitely show.

The first argument will be that losing your #1 or #2 or even both at any position or for any team will hurt and that is true but it's not the losing the players that is the point here it is the replacing them. In my mind Jones would have been a better #1 or #2 WR replacement at this point therefore I still wish we had him.

I hope that we never get a chance to see if I am right, and if we do I hope like hell that I am wrong.
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Offline uffda udfa  
#62 Posted : Sunday, June 22, 2014 2:24:59 PM(UTC)
uffda udfa

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Originally Posted by: StarrMax1 Go to Quoted Post
You do realize you are arguing with yourself.

Nobody is saying a players 40 time isn't important, DURING THE DRAFT PERIOD.

You just stated "it will be interesting to see if Harper looks more like 4.38 or more toward his below average speed."

Maybe you don't even realize you switched from talking about a straight 40 time and started talking about "football speed".

There is a HUGE difference.

Every player I have ever seen interviewed says pretty much the same thing, they go to the combines and do all these drills to either improve their draft status or in some cases just to get noticed(I:E: Janis).

To a player they all say now that they either were drafted or invited to a camp, it doesn't matter how they got there, they are just glad they can finally put on the pads and show their perspective teams that they can play the game at a Profesional level.

Can someone tell me,(because I have never been able to attend an OTA or TC practice), how long do coaches spend on timing players in the 40 yd dash at these practices?


Is there a HUGE difference? How do you know? Are you just guessing? If you read the quote from Trent Baalke the implication is sometimes the playing speed and 40 time don't square. I'm going to speculate that MOST of the time there is NOT a HUGE difference between playing speed and 40 time...only when there is a disparity does it cause an issue for the Niners.

Yes during the draft it is imperative. What was I lamenting that drew all this ire? The fact that we DRAFTED two skill position guys in the first 3 rounds who had below average speed when guys with much better speed were there. I hailed Lyerla's addition as well as Janis...those two both have great measurables. I hope they can play... We don't know if Adams and Rodgers can play but we do know they aren't fast. We don't know if Lyerla or Janis can play but we know they are fast. So, we have 4 total players there... Both pairs are in the same boat in that we don't know if they can play at the NFL level and be successful. One pair is slow by measurables....the other is not. I like the idea of Lyerla and Janis better than Adams and Rodgers. Will be interesting to see if a 7th rounder and UDFA can outperform a 2nd and 3rd rounder.
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Online texaspackerbacker  
#63 Posted : Sunday, June 22, 2014 7:33:03 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DakotaT Go to Quoted Post
I don't know why we need 5 mediocre tight ends, when we should bring in a hammerhead fullback not named John Kuhn just to block for the three headed monster named Lacy/Starks/Harris.


I didn't say that would be my choice, but I just have a hunch that Ted will keep Taylor again and probably give Bostick another year, along with Quarless. I said "up to" five - that would include 1 or 2 from among Rodgers, Lyerla, and Stoneburner. Ted seems to prefer TEs to WRs - maybe for special teams, I don't know.

If it was me, I'd use the new center as a long snapper to save a roster spot, get by with maybe 8 O Linemen, not go overboard on D-Linemen and LBs, keep just 2 QBs, and then be able to load up on both WRs and TEs.

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Offline mi_keys  
#64 Posted : Sunday, June 22, 2014 8:40:34 PM(UTC)
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Uffda,

Since you seem so fond of quote mining, from the very article you posted earlier while discussing Skov:

Quote:
Hoping to post a time in the 4.8s -- within the accepted range for run-stopping inside linebackers"


Borland ran a 4.83. Yes that's slower than average, but if you look at 40 times for inside linebackers you'd probably find the median is mid to high 4.7s, so his time is not outside the range of 40 times you typically find for linebackers.

Then there's this:
http://www.jsonline.com/...gs/sports/257212751.html
He was removed from at least one team's draft board and others expressed concern for the shoulder injury while not eliminating him from consideration.

Suggesting I'm obfuscating the issues that led to Borland's draft position by pointing out there were factors other than his 40 time that contributed is simply daft.

To pull more from that article you posted:
Quote:
More significant than the 40 time, not only for Skov but all prospects, is what scouts call "play speed." It's established by analyzing film and determining whether a prospect plays above, below or to the standard for his position.

Quote:
"The 40 doesn't equate to football speed," Rice said. "A guy could run a great 40, and then you put pads on him and he doesn't have lateral movement or he can't come out of his cuts. He just doesn't have it."


Rice is the marquee example. He never timed well but on game day no one ever caught him.

You also said the evidence didn't support my assertions. I've been telling you that there are other factors that contribute to draft position. Pulling the 40 times of the 34 receivers taken in this last draft, plotting those times against draft position, and finding that the data showed essentially 0 correlation is evidence that the 40 times aren't the be all, end all metric your incessant harping on them would suggest. That doesn't mean the 40 time doesn't play it's part, that it's not considered important; but it probably means there are other factors in play.
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Offline uffda udfa  
#65 Posted : Sunday, June 22, 2014 10:00:00 PM(UTC)
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I was just waiting for the Rice stuff to be brought up. Thank you for taking time to read the article.

Yes, I do know there are other factors than just 40 time... the play speed thing I completely get... the posting of the Baalke quote and referencing it in subsequent posts points to that.

If you'd only go back and look at some of the things I said about the 40 before the draft, you'd be completely surprised. I get it... trust me.

No one ever caught Jerry Rice? That's the kind of stuff that always makes me smile. I think a few WR draft prospects said the same but I looked at their YouTube highlights and found examples that contradicted the player's assertion. Jerry Rice surely was caught from behind and quite easily I might add with someone with a vastly superior 40 that doesn't seem to matter.... Just forward this clip to: :40 in


EDIT: On Rice's comments...yes, he's correct, but that's why they run 3 cone drills to measure that lateral quickness he said some fast guys don't have. My guy Moncrief wasn't very good at the 3 cone. And I should say... I wanted Borland despite his known shortcomings and it had nothing to do with him being a Badger. Drives me nuts when fans of college teams go cuckoo for wanting their own on their favorite pro team. Too many blind Buckeyes fans when it comes to AJ Hawk.

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Offline uffda udfa  
#66 Posted : Sunday, June 22, 2014 10:30:44 PM(UTC)
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I should add that the genesis of my frustration with the 40 time thing has to do with teams in the NFC North, over the years, having guys with electrifying speed that Green Bay never seems to have...and I mean...NEVER.

Vikings... Randy Moss, Percy Harvin, AD, Corrdarrelle Patterson

Lions... Megatron, Reggie Bush, and now Ebron

Bears...Devin Hester

Why do the Green Bay Packers NEVER have a guy like the above? Ever? Randall Cobb excites all of us...because he looks so fast compared to what we've had over the years. The guy runs 4.46...about the best I recall seeing in forever. Well, Ahman Green had special speed and so does Shields. Why can't we ever have one WR who is just special when it comes to speed? Why? We're always adding guys who are solid but not special to our receiving stable. It sucks watching us flail trying to tackle guys like Harvin, Patterson, Hester, Megatron, etc... Wouldn't it be nice to have a weapon like that in our WR corps...for once? That's what I really wanted ...we got it in the 7th round, at least. Moncrief is a guy I really wanted...Taller and much faster with same leaping ability. Carved up LSU pretty good...played in real football conference. We get the possession type which might be fine for our O, but Moncrief was the homerun hitter. Aaron Rodgers has lamented the way D's play us taking away our long ball...because we have nobody with elite speed to run by it. Now, we have just another guy in the same mold who can't beat it in Adams. To know we struggled with "taking the top off a defense" and then add a guy who runs 4.56 is just infuriating to me. Get me Moncrief who can fly...instead the guy went a whole round later to Indy.
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Offline steveishere  
#67 Posted : Monday, June 23, 2014 4:26:41 AM(UTC)
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Year after year we have one of the most productive deep passing attacks in the league. Our speed on offense certainly hasn't been a problem or hinderance. Jennings hit as many big plays as anyone in the league while he was here healthy and now it's Jordy doing it. Who cares what their 40 times were 5+ years ago when the production is there.

Kind of a cool site here

40+ yard TDs since 2011

40+ yard TDs 2007-2012

Now I'm not saying that these guys are hall of famers or even the best in the league. I'm saying that complaining about them not having "electric speed" seems dumb when they still produce the big plays at a high rate. It seems their speed is perfectly fine. LOL if a guy ran a 5.00 40 yard dash but he still manages to get open deep and score TDs that works for me just as well as a 4.2 guy doing the same thing.

Message modified by user Monday, June 23, 2014 4:46:37 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Offline Mucky Tundra  
#68 Posted : Monday, June 23, 2014 5:31:27 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: steveishere Go to Quoted Post
Year after year we have one of the most productive deep passing attacks in the league. Our speed on offense certainly hasn't been a problem or hinderance. Jennings hit as many big plays as anyone in the league while he was here healthy and now it's Jordy doing it. Who cares what their 40 times were 5+ years ago when the production is there.

Kind of a cool site here

40+ yard TDs since 2011

40+ yard TDs 2007-2012

Now I'm not saying that these guys are hall of famers or even the best in the league. I'm saying that complaining about them not having "electric speed" seems dumb when they still produce the big plays at a high rate. It seems their speed is perfectly fine. LOL if a guy ran a 5.00 40 yard dash but he still manages to get open deep and score TDs that works for me just as well as a 4.2 guy doing the same thing.


Not surprised to see Jordy on the top of that list since 2011. McCarthy loves going to him deep off play-action.
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Offline uffda udfa  
#69 Posted : Monday, June 23, 2014 7:30:31 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: steveishere Go to Quoted Post
Year after year we have one of the most productive deep passing attacks in the league. Our speed on offense certainly hasn't been a problem or hinderance. Jennings hit as many big plays as anyone in the league while he was here healthy and now it's Jordy doing it. Who cares what their 40 times were 5+ years ago when the production is there.

Kind of a cool site here

40+ yard TDs since 2011

40+ yard TDs 2007-2012

Now I'm not saying that these guys are hall of famers or even the best in the league. I'm saying that complaining about them not having "electric speed" seems dumb when they still produce the big plays at a high rate. It seems their speed is perfectly fine. LOL if a guy ran a 5.00 40 yard dash but he still manages to get open deep and score TDs that works for me just as well as a 4.2 guy doing the same thing.


I'm not saying I expect our entire corps to be blazers, but it's crazy to me that we don't have one. You don't think that would make us even better on offense? You seem quite content with our speed at WR. Is our crew pretty good... absolutely. Would you like to address the idea that we don't have a guy who can take the top off a defense which was one of Rodgers laments that teams were taking away their long game? We had nobody on the roster that could just simply consistently run by people last year or the year before or the year before that. Sam Shields can change a game with his speed and often does. Where is that on O? Other teams in the NFCN have guys who can change games with their speed. We do not. Randall is the closest thing we have... and he is the type I'm referring to but just a bit faster is what I'm longing for.

It's nice that you're content with "the way things are"... don't you hope for better? I do. I see a speed merchant WR as a way to be better but I'll just get another reply about how so and so and so and so are good enough. Man, I hope Janis can play and make this team so we can have what it is I feel would make us that much better and more dangerous.

EDIT: I almost forgot that at least we have DuJuan Harris...if he's anything like he was, he's the kind of guy that our O needs. That speed and shiftiness of his is electric. An element that we sorely lack.

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Online texaspackerbacker  
#70 Posted : Monday, June 23, 2014 7:49:57 AM(UTC)
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I don't care how fast a guy is, a good DB can take an angle and cover him. I remember seeing Bullet Bob Hayes play many decades ago, and he was usually covered. Moves and play action are what gets it done - the reason Jordy Nelson is so productive on deep passes. I've seen Abbrederis get open that way in college, and I'm confident he can do the same in the NFL. Very likely the same and maybe more so for Davante Adams. Oh yeah, being able to catch the ball counts for something too.
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#71 Posted : Monday, June 23, 2014 7:52:24 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: uffda udfa Go to Quoted Post
I'm not saying I expect our entire corps to be blazers, but it's crazy to me that we don't have one. You don't think that would make us even better on offense? You seem quite content with our speed at WR. Is our crew pretty good... absolutely. Would you like to address the idea that we don't have a guy who can take the top off a defense which was one of Rodgers laments that teams were taking away their long game? We had nobody on the roster that could just simply consistently run by people last year or the year before or the year before that. Sam Shields can change a game with his speed and often does. Where is that on O? Other teams in the NFCN have guys who can change games with their speed. We do not. Randall is the closest thing we have... and he is the type I'm referring to but just a bit faster is what I'm longing for.

It's nice that you're content with "the way things are"... don't you hope for better? I do. I see a speed merchant WR as a way to be better but I'll just get another reply about how so and so and so and so are good enough. Man, I hope Janis can play and make this team so we can have what it is I feel would make us that much better and more dangerous.



Driver was a track guy.

What gets Greg Jennings open is short area quickness. Cobb is like that too, he can change direction on a dime.
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Offline uffda udfa  
#72 Posted : Monday, June 23, 2014 8:11:45 AM(UTC)
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Driver was a track guy but he lost his speed years before he was completely done. He and Woodson both had to go when they could no longer run as they once did.
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#73 Posted : Monday, June 23, 2014 11:26:51 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: uffda udfa Go to Quoted Post
I'm not saying I expect our entire corps to be blazers, but it's crazy to me that we don't have one. You don't think that would make us even better on offense? You seem quite content with our speed at WR. Is our crew pretty good... absolutely. Would you like to address the idea that we don't have a guy who can take the top off a defense which was one of Rodgers laments that teams were taking away their long game? We had nobody on the roster that could just simply consistently run by people last year or the year before or the year before that. Sam Shields can change a game with his speed and often does. Where is that on O? Other teams in the NFCN have guys who can change games with their speed. We do not. Randall is the closest thing we have... and he is the type I'm referring to but just a bit faster is what I'm longing for.

It's nice that you're content with "the way things are"... don't you hope for better? I do. I see a speed merchant WR as a way to be better but I'll just get another reply about how so and so and so and so are good enough. Man, I hope Janis can play and make this team so we can have what it is I feel would make us that much better and more dangerous.

EDIT: I almost forgot that at least we have DuJuan Harris...if he's anything like he was, he's the kind of guy that our O needs. That speed and shiftiness of his is electric. An element that we sorely lack.


Yeah, I always want us to be better and there are a lot of ways to be better besides having guys with a faster 40 time. How the shit is our speed at WR lacking when we've had one of the top big play WRs on our team the last 3 years and one of the most productive big play passing games? For some reason you seem to think me saying our speed is good enough means me saying that our speed isn't very good, I'm not saying that. I think our speed on offense is very good and our big play ability is very good and has been for quite some time.

I don't really see the difference between having a guy that will change a game with his speed or a guy that will change a game with something else he's good at. I like guys who change the game because they are good football players whether that be because they are super fast or because of something else. Casey Hayward had as much impact in his healthy season as any season Sam Shields has had. Give me 5 Haywards or 5 Shields I don't care I just want us to have great players I don't care so much what attribute that greatness manifests it self in as long as it helps us win and I'm not going to pout and cry and get depressed that a guy sucks just because he's not great at a certain attribute.

Heck look at Eddie Lacy, dude's not a burner but he sure as hell changed some games for us.
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Offline uffda udfa  
#74 Posted : Monday, June 23, 2014 2:07:57 PM(UTC)
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I'm perplexed by that response.... I know that you think our speed is fine...that is what is baffling. You cling to these 40 yard gains. We've been fortunate that our guys have won many jump balls and contested type catches. Yes, that skill is very important as well. However, how many plays are we leaving on the field that we could hit if our guys could actually separate consistently on deep routes? I just don't see any response that makes any sense for why it's okay not to have a guy who burns the turf at WR. It is a peculiar thing to keep insisting that it's wrong for me to be concerned with finding a guy who can jet.

When a defensive coordinator prepares for our O, he can do things to our O because it doesn't have a guy who flat out flies that they need to respect. A D can be played that takes away our long game due to the fact we don't have a speed guy. I'm not sure how you missed that point that I've tried making a couple of times very unsuccessfully. I'm all for guys changing games with whatever unique skill set they possess, but the one that is MISSING is... GREAT SPEED. That is not a tool in our toolbox and as I said things can be crafted to stop us based on the fact we don't have speed that needs respecting. Wouldn't it be nice to have that alternative? A guy who could beat some of the defenses designed to stop our O the way it's currently constituted without a flier?
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Offline steveishere  
#75 Posted : Monday, June 23, 2014 2:22:20 PM(UTC)
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With how easy it is to apparently craft a defense to stop our offense teams sure aren't too successful doing it. Why do you keep insisting our guys don't get any separation on deep routes, they get plenty of separation on deep routes. We don't really have any jump ball type WRs without Finley so I don't see how you can say we've thrived on that type of play. Our offense thrives on YAC which wouldn't be possible without guys getting separation. Having a super fast guy would be great but I'm not gonna cry about passing up a "speed" for a guy who is possibly a better WR but didn't time as fast.

Plus having a bruiser running game is going to make it really tough for teams to keep worrying about the deep ball. This is going to be a dangerous offense next year.
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