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OlHoss1884  
#1 Posted : Wednesday, June 25, 2014 7:50:20 PM(UTC)
To move this discussion to this thread...

It's hard to compare eras so this is in no particular order but these guys would be my all time best:

Unitas
Graham
Baugh
Marino
Montana
Elway
P. Manning
Brady
Favre
Starr

I only kept Rodgers off that list because he hasn't played long enough for me to objectively evaluate his career and I took Bart over Brees because he called his own plays.
wpr  
#2 Posted : Thursday, June 26, 2014 5:33:06 AM(UTC)
looks reasonable. I would have Starr on the list because of 5 championships instead of calling his own plays. Some would add Tarkenton to the list. I am not sure who I would want to take off and he didn't win any championships so who cares.
sschind  
#3 Posted : Thursday, June 26, 2014 6:26:50 AM(UTC)
OlHoss1884 said: Go to Quoted Post
To move this discussion to this thread...

It's hard to compare eras so this is in no particular order but these guys would be my all time best:

Unitas
Graham
Baugh
Marino
Montana
Elway
P. Manning
Brady
Favre
Starr

I only kept Rodgers off that list because he hasn't played long enough for me to objectively evaluate his career and I took Bart over Brees because he called his own plays.


I like the no particular order thing and its far more realistic. Obviously people are still going to argue over a player or two who should have made it but I'm guessing that 8 of these would be on 95% of the people's lists and the 2 that might not make it would be damn close. I'm talking people who know football regardless of age and not those who think the NFL started in 1985.

Of course you are still going to get haters who claim Brady doesn't belong and kool-aide drinkers who think Kaepernick does but when you see something like that I think you can pretty much discount anything they have to say.
Wade  
#4 Posted : Thursday, June 26, 2014 10:15:55 AM(UTC)
OlHoss1884 said: Go to Quoted Post
To move this discussion to this thread...

It's hard to compare eras so this is in no particular order but these guys would be my all time best:

Unitas
Graham
Baugh
Marino
Montana
Elway
P. Manning
Brady
Favre
Starr

I only kept Rodgers off that list because he hasn't played long enough for me to objectively evaluate his career and I took Bart over Brees because he called his own plays.


My 10 (again, in no particular order): Unitas, Graham, Baugh, Montana, Brady, Starr, Luckman, Herber, Staubach, Waterfield.

Much as I hate saying this about Pretty Boy, Brady is the only current player to me that belongs in the the top 10, for the same reason as I put Montana there, titles. Manning is omitted for the same reason Favre and Marino are: in otherwise close calls, championships always >stats. I will go to my grave thinking Elway was overrated.

I do expect Rodgers to retire in the top 10 though.

cheeseheads123  
#5 Posted : Thursday, June 26, 2014 2:17:58 PM(UTC)
Wade said: Go to Quoted Post
My 10 (again, in no particular order): Unitas, Graham, Baugh, Montana, Brady, Starr, Luckman, Herber, Staubach, Waterfield.

Much as I hate saying this about Pretty Boy, Brady is the only current player to me that belongs in the the top 10, for the same reason as I put Montana there, titles. Manning is omitted for the same reason Favre and Marino are: in otherwise close calls, championships always >stats. I will go to my grave thinking Elway was overrated.

I do expect Rodgers to retire in the top 10 though.



You put way too much value into rings.
wpr  
#6 Posted : Thursday, June 26, 2014 7:54:55 PM(UTC)
cheeseheads123 said: Go to Quoted Post
You put way too much value into rings.


As long as the measure of success is championships there is no such thing.
sschind  
#7 Posted : Friday, June 27, 2014 6:47:01 AM(UTC)
wpr said: Go to Quoted Post
As long as the measure of success is championships there is no such thing.



As long as YOUR measure of success is championships there is no such thing TO YOU. It may be legitimate to measure teams by the number of championships but not individulas. Championships are a TEAM accomplishment and you are applying them to individuals. Yes the QB is considered the leader of the team but if his followers suck he can't do shit.

If you took any one of those QBs you listed and put them on most of the 70's or 80's Packers teams and they don't get their rings which means they are not great QBs I guess.

I know you are not saying guys like Dilfer are better than Marino because they have a ring and that you are using it as more of a tie breaker between two otherwise fairly evenly matched individuls but you have to make sure that those individuals are fairly evenly matched before you apply the ring criteria and not let the number of rings influence your judgement in the first place.

wpr  
#8 Posted : Friday, June 27, 2014 7:09:06 AM(UTC)
sschind said: Go to Quoted Post
As long as YOUR measure of success is championships there is no such thing TO YOU. It may be legitimate to measure teams by the number of championships but not individulas. Championships are a TEAM accomplishment and you are applying them to individuals. Yes the QB is considered the leader of the team but if his followers suck he can't do shit.

If you took any one of those QBs you listed and put them on most of the 70's or 80's Packers teams and they don't get their rings which means they are not great QBs I guess.

I know you are not saying guys like Dilfer are better than Marino because they have a ring and that you are using it as more of a tie breaker between two otherwise fairly evenly matched individuls but you have to make sure that those individuals are fairly evenly matched before you apply the ring criteria and not let the number of rings influence your judgement in the first place.



ease up a bit. You don't have to take everything so literally. What I said to cheeseheads123 was rather tongue in cheek.
Wade  
#9 Posted : Friday, June 27, 2014 9:58:13 AM(UTC)
sschind said: Go to Quoted Post
As long as YOUR measure of success is championships there is no such thing TO YOU. It may be legitimate to measure teams by the number of championships but not individulas. Championships are a TEAM accomplishment and you are applying them to individuals. Yes the QB is considered the leader of the team but if his followers suck he can't do shit.

If you took any one of those QBs you listed and put them on most of the 70's or 80's Packers teams and they don't get their rings which means they are not great QBs I guess.

I know you are not saying guys like Dilfer are better than Marino because they have a ring and that you are using it as more of a tie breaker between two otherwise fairly evenly matched individuls but you have to make sure that those individuals are fairly evenly matched before you apply the ring criteria and not let the number of rings influence your judgement in the first place.



Okay. Let's look at this another way. Manning has and Favre has stats that no other quarterback comes close to. In other words, they are not "evenly matched" in terms of their individual performance with Starr, Graham, and others.

On the other hand, is it true to say either one of them went through their careers with "followers who can't do shit"? Okay, they may not have had as many Hall of Famers as the Lombardi Packers did. I'll concede that. But on the other hand, how many Super Bowls have been won in the Favre/Manning era with that number of Hall of Famers on the team. How many Hall of Famers did Dilfer or Doug Williams or whoever play with?

The year Favre won his SB, I believe the Packers had the #1 defense in the league or close thereto. How many years did he have a top-10 defense? (I don't know the answer here, but I don't think it is "one.")

How many playoff games has Manning been on the *losing* side? How many playoff games was Marino on the *losing* side?

And as for Marino, who was *his* coach? I seem to remember the guy who he played most of his career for ended up in Canton, too.

It may seem so, but "championships" are not my main criterion for quarterback greatness. The only quarterback on my "top 10 list" for which they were the determinant actually is Montana. I actually wanted to leave Montana off my list, since I've never thought as highly of him. But the sheer number of times he won meant I had to include him.

But it isn't championships that decides for me. It is "if I were picking a team to field, who would I put at the position." And for quarterback, that means "leadership". And to me, Starr defines that term.

Might Manning, Favre, et al have won ith the Lombardi Packers? Might Marino? I don't know. Maybe.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on the criteria and priority among them.
Dexter_Sinister  
#10 Posted : Thursday, July 3, 2014 9:30:43 PM(UTC)
I took the passer rating of every QB that qualified for a career in the NFL going back to 1940. Then I deducted the average passer rating of the entire NFL during that players career from his rating. It gave me a ranking of how far above average each QB is as far as passing efficiency.

The reason I did that is there is no way you can realisticly compare players from different eras. Even going back to Favre's era, the average passer rating for his entire career is below 80. Today it is about 86. So comparing Favre to today's QB, you should raise his rating by 6.

In the 1940s when Don Hutson basically invented the WR position and they ussered in the moder passing game, the average rating was in the upper 40s. It has been increasing fairly steadily until today. There are so many rule, equipment, fitness, medical care, scheme and other changes that there isn't a reasonable way to compare. Just going from no black players to integration was a huge change.

Here is my top 25 and how far they were above average.

Rank Quarterback QBPRD
1 Sid Luckman+ 25.80
2 Sammy Baugh+ 22.02
3 Otto Graham+ 22.00
4 Aaron Rodgers 21.78
5 Steve Young+ 20.55
6 Roger Staubach+ 17.75
7 Joe Montana+ 17.40
8 Tommy Thompson 17.30
9 Norm Van Brocklin+ 16.00
10 Len Dawson+ 15.55
11 Sonny Jurgensen+ 15.47
12 Tom Brady 14.82
13 Peyton Manning 14.47
14 George Ratterman 13.81
15 Bart Starr+ 13.46
16 Kurt Warner 13.43
17 Fran Tarkenton+ 13.28
18 Ken Anderson 12.73
19 Tony Romo 12.51
20 Drew Brees 12.22
21 Philip Rivers 11.41
22 Johnny Unitas+ 11.32
23 Y.A. Tittle+ 11.19
24 Bob Griese+ 10.57
25 Bob Berry 10.41

I also do not give any credit for championships. If that were the case, Dilfer would be better than Marino.
sschind  
#11 Posted : Friday, July 4, 2014 7:18:34 AM(UTC)
Dexter_Sinister said: Go to Quoted Post
I took the passer rating of every QB that qualified for a career in the NFL going back to 1940. Then I deducted the average passer rating of the entire NFL during that players career from his rating. It gave me a ranking of how far above average each QB is as far as passing efficiency.

The reason I did that is there is no way you can realisticly compare players from different eras. Even going back to Favre's era, the average passer rating for his entire career is below 80. Today it is about 86. So comparing Favre to today's QB, you should raise his rating by 6.

In the 1940s when Don Hutson basically invented the WR position and they ussered in the moder passing game, the average rating was in the upper 40s. It has been increasing fairly steadily until today. There are so many rule, equipment, fitness, medical care, scheme and other changes that there isn't a reasonable way to compare. Just going from no black players to integration was a huge change.

Here is my top 25 and how far they were above average.

Rank Quarterback QBPRD
1 Sid Luckman+ 25.80
2 Sammy Baugh+ 22.02
3 Otto Graham+ 22.00
4 Aaron Rodgers 21.78
5 Steve Young+ 20.55
6 Roger Staubach+ 17.75
7 Joe Montana+ 17.40
8 Tommy Thompson 17.30
9 Norm Van Brocklin+ 16.00
10 Len Dawson+ 15.55
11 Sonny Jurgensen+ 15.47
12 Tom Brady 14.82
13 Peyton Manning 14.47
14 George Ratterman 13.81
15 Bart Starr+ 13.46
16 Kurt Warner 13.43
17 Fran Tarkenton+ 13.28
18 Ken Anderson 12.73
19 Tony Romo 12.51
20 Drew Brees 12.22
21 Philip Rivers 11.41
22 Johnny Unitas+ 11.32
23 Y.A. Tittle+ 11.19
24 Bob Griese+ 10.57
25 Bob Berry 10.41

I also do not give any credit for championships. If that were the case, Dilfer would be better than Marino.


Is this really your list of the top 25 qbs or is it just the results of your particular manipulation and analysis of the stats (passer rating)?

Do you really consider Tommy Thompson and George Ratterman and maybe 15 of the other QBs you have ranked ahead of him to be better than Johnny Unitas?

I understand you are trying to be objective and that's OK as far as it goes but objectivity does have its limits and if this is truly YOUR list of the top 25 QBs you are nuts.

Besides, I didn't even know the former governor of Wisconsin played pro football[grin1]
Wade  
#12 Posted : Friday, July 4, 2014 9:14:16 AM(UTC)
Ken Anderson -- now there is one I forgot. i wouldn't put him in my top 10, but I would put him on the All-Underrated list. Man, he was good.
Dexter_Sinister  
#13 Posted : Saturday, July 5, 2014 6:34:16 AM(UTC)
sschind said: Go to Quoted Post
Is this really your list of the top 25 qbs or is it just the results of your particular manipulation and analysis of the stats (passer rating)?

Do you really consider Tommy Thompson and George Ratterman and maybe 15 of the other QBs you have ranked ahead of him to be better than Johnny Unitas?

I understand you are trying to be objective and that's OK as far as it goes but objectivity does have its limits and if this is truly YOUR list of the top 25 QBs you are nuts.

Besides, I didn't even know the former governor of Wisconsin played pro football[grin1]


There are actually 3 on the list that don't belong. Thompson, Ratterman and Berry. It was supposed to filter out all QBs with under 1500 attempst because that is the cut off point for an official career.

I havae to check why they made it through the filter.
dfosterf  
#14 Posted : Thursday, July 10, 2014 6:45:08 PM(UTC)
Peyton Manning was rated the best player in the NFL last year. Rodgers was 11th. How much of that had to do with the health of our respective offensive lines? There is a lot to this game .
OlHoss1884  
#15 Posted : Wednesday, July 16, 2014 4:05:52 PM(UTC)
Wade said: Go to Quoted Post
Ken Anderson -- now there is one I forgot. i wouldn't put him in my top 10, but I would put him on the All-Underrated list. Man, he was good.


He was the original West Coast QB...Bill Walsh was the OC under Paul Brown who made him into what he was.

OlHoss1884  
#16 Posted : Wednesday, July 16, 2014 4:10:23 PM(UTC)
On the issue of titles...Dan Marino couldn't cover Jerry Rice for squat. If that loser could cover, tackle or catch, he would have had a few rings but all he could do is throw.

Keep in mind that even the great Tom Brady won 3 rings when his defense was loaded and the Patriots had a running game. As much as a QB leads his team and impoacts the game, he's not the only thing a team needs to win.

Otto Graham had Marion Motley and a stud defense. The Steelers has the Steel Curtain and Joe Montana has an all-Madden team all around him.

There are QB with titles who were certainly good...Griese, for example, but whose teams won it all because they had a lot more going for them.
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