mi_keys
8 years ago

My point is this... Yes, we "draft and develop" but so does every other team in the NFL. There isn't a team in the NFL who doesn't participate in the NFL draft year after year and there isn't a team who gets rid of all the guys they draft every single year.

Originally Posted by: uffda udfa 



There isn't a single person on this forum that has alleged otherwise. sschind, in the very post you quoted, agreed that every team participates in the draft.

By definition, all teams...draft...and...develop.

Originally Posted by: uffda udfa 



If you want to define it strictly literally, then yes. But that's not the context in which people use the phrase. Again, as sschind laid out, people talk about teams such as the Packers being draft and develop when the focus is on that aspect of roster building.

That is almost exclusively what Ted relies on.

Originally Posted by: uffda udfa 



We know. That's why people talk about the Packers as a "draft and develop" team.

I simply don't like it.

Originally Posted by: uffda udfa 



We know. You tell us this in almost every single thread you post in.

I also do not like adding multiple FA's every single year.

Originally Posted by: uffda udfa 



Cool. Something we agree on.

What I do like is adding a difference maker and we rarely ever do such a thing and that is a major frustration when we have a QB like we have now. Ted Thompson would rather wait 3 or 4 years to see if we might have a blue chipper rather than spend, now, to maybe get one immediately.

Originally Posted by: uffda udfa 



Bold added for emphasis and underlined word added full stop. That's the point you never represent accurately: you always represent the potential for failure in drafting and never represent the potential for failure in FA. No free agent is a sure thing. Lots and lots of them flop horrifically. Some do okay but don't live up to expectations. Others light it up. But it is never a guarantee.

You also always insist on phrasing the draft route as strictly 3 to 4 years down the road. Sure, some do take time to develop. Others make an impact right away.

I think that is ridiculously wrong. He wants to save money and is always thinking about years down the road and misses too much of what is going on right now with his robotic plodding approach that, btw, only works if you have an all world QB.

Originally Posted by: uffda udfa 



And your usual straw man about how he's only worried about the future or saving money. No, he has a philosophical difference as to how create the best odds at winning the most number of titles. That's it. Maybe he's wrong overall, and he certainly has been on individual players or moves (as all GMs have been), but you harping on and on and on about your philosophical differences and rehashing the same strawman argument incessently does nothing to show if, and how, he might be wrong.

I admire teams for going for it and trying. People always want to point to the teams that don't win the SB while using FA. Well, our team has been there 1 time this century using draft and develop. See, look at what a failure it is! One SB appearance in 15 years. It's really odd how people look at what they want to see and turn blind eye to reality. Again, I will always admire a team/GM who GOES FOR IT, not one who just plods along hoping and wishing.

Originally Posted by: uffda udfa 


Ted Thompson has been here 10 years. Not sure what 5 years of Sherman incompetence has to do with him. Hell, Sherman was someone who would go for it from time to time and wiffed horribly with bums like Hardy Nickerson and Joe Johnson. TT's overseen 1 Super Bowl title in 10 years. Considering there are 32 teams, that's not a failure.

By the way, with 32 teams, the average expected number of years between Super Bowl appearances is 16 years. So even your grouping Sherman's failures in with Ted Thompson doesn't make Green Bay's performance over that tenure an outright failure.

The rest of your "blind eye to reality", "go for it", and "plodding along" comments are rhetorical fluff.

The draft and develop approach views the risk of heavy activity in free agency as outweighing the expected return. It's that simple. You spend big on a free agent and you might not have the capspace to retain your young talent. And if that free agent doesn't pan out you've now bled away some of your young talent for a bust or you've cut said bust and you're now carrying dead cap space. That's the potential failure of free agency.

The draft and develop approach is most assuredly not a philosophy of not giving a shit. That's a strawman.
Born and bred a cheesehead
+3
Barfarn
8 years ago

What I do like is adding a difference maker and we rarely ever do such a thing and that is a major frustration when we have a QB like we have now. Ted Thompson would rather wait 3 or 4 years to see if we might have a blue chipper rather than spend, now, to get one immediately. I think that is ridiculously wrong.
I admire teams for going for it and trying. People always want to point to the teams that don't win the SB while using FA. Well, our team has been there 1 time this century using draft and develop. See, look at what a failure it is! One SB appearance in 15 years. It's really odd how people look at what they want to see and turn blind eye to reality. Again, I will always admire a team/GM who GOES FOR IT, not one who just plods along hoping and wishing.

Originally Posted by: uffda udfa 



"blind eye to reality?"
Dude, That's YOU! Everyone else is talking concrete facts and real examples, BUT YOU.

Meanwhile you spout these verbal Escher diagrams.

Do you think Ted Thompson can sitting back pluck difference making FAs like ordering a McDouble from McDonalds? There is typically no more than 1or 2 in any year and sometimes there are NONE! Then there's the alternative costs for these 1-2, if ya pay them trillions, like, who gets cut or not signed as a result? And sometimes a guy that otherwise might be a difference maker on the football field, isn't; because of personal issues like, he is unhappy living away from family or his wife/kids are unhappy they had to be transplanted.

True, all teams draft and develop, it's just that few, if any, are a disciplined about it as TT. So just like everyone lies; one who is identified as a liar is one who does it often.

In last 5 years, TT's D&D methods provided Mike McCarthy with a roster for 3 SB appearances [if not for a Bosticide and of a death of a coach's son] and perhaps more if not for a plague of injuries; 4 div champs; 5 PO appearances.

And i know what yer thinking...about the 3 SB appearance comment. But, getting to SB is a confluence of SEVERAL things. The issue at hand is about whether TT's D&D methods provide SB rosters, not if other factors prevented those rosters from getting to SB. If other factors stopped the SB appearances the subject rosters were destined to deliver, it is outright stupid to change the part of the confluence that works. STUPID!

And to change it to the "going for it" method that is proven not to work is certifiably STUPID.
uffda udfa
8 years ago

"blind eye to reality?"
Dude, That's YOU! Everyone else is talking concrete facts and real examples, BUT YOU.

Meanwhile you spout these verbal Escher diagrams.

Do you think Ted Thompson can sitting back pluck difference making FAs like ordering a McDouble from McDonalds? There is typically no more than 1or 2 in any year and sometimes there are NONE! Then there's the alternative costs for these 1-2, if ya pay them trillions, like, who gets cut or not signed as a result? And sometimes a guy that otherwise might be a difference maker on the football field, isn't; because of personal issues like, he is unhappy living away from family or his wife/kids are unhappy they had to be transplanted.

True, all teams draft and develop, it's just that few, if any, are a disciplined about it as TT. So just like everyone lies; one who is identified as a liar is one who does it often.

In last 5 years, TT's D&D methods provided Mike McCarthy with a roster for 3 SB appearances [if not for a Bosticide and of a death of a coach's son] and perhaps more if not for a plague of injuries; 4 div champs; 5 PO appearances.

And i know what yer thinking...about the 3 SB appearance comment. But, getting to SB is a confluence of SEVERAL things. The issue at hand is about whether TT's D&D methods provide SB rosters, not if other factors prevented those rosters from getting to SB. If other factors stopped the SB appearances the subject rosters were destined to deliver, it is outright stupid to change the part of the confluence that works. STUPID!

And to change it to the "going for it" method that is proven not to work is certifiably STUPID.

Originally Posted by: Barfarn 



The going for it method has proven not to work? Oh, you mean like New England last year? ...or Seattle the year before?

The average span of being in or winning a SB is 16 years? Tell that to Detroit, Philly, Cleveland, Arizona, etc. Heck, tell that one to New England. We have Aaron Rodgers at QB and Favre before him. I think we should've been there a little more than we have if we had the GM'ing/Coaching that we believe we have, but we don't.

I find it hysterical to see that Ted Thompson has a philosophical difference on how to create the best odds at winning the most number of titles. The titles you must be referring to have to be divisional because you sure can't mean Super Bowl. Barfarn...I know that wasn't you.

The truth is and will remain that we've had back to back two of the better QB's to ever play the game and we've been to the SB 3 times. New England has won more than that over less time because why? They are the better organization. Plain and simple. Our GM/GM's and coaching just isn't as good as theirs nor have our total team talent either.





UserPostedImage
Ted Thompson sits on his hands per former GM: "because they’ve had 25 fricking years of great quarterbacks. Of course it works. Try it without a special quarterback."


mi_keys
8 years ago

The average span of being in or winning a SB is 16 years? Tell that to Detroit, Philly, Cleveland, Arizona, etc. Heck, tell that one to New England. We have Aaron Rodgers at QB and Favre before him. I think we should've been there a little more than we have if we had the GM'ing/Coaching that we believe we have, but we don't.

Originally Posted by: uffda udfa 



Lol, so there's teams that have done better and teams that have done worse than the average? Wow. Thanks for that grand insight. Do you know what an average is?

Born and bred a cheesehead
uffda udfa
8 years ago

Lol, so there's teams that have done better and teams that have done worse than the average? Wow. Thanks for that grand insight. Do you know what an average is?

Originally Posted by: mi_keys 



Yes. I also know what it means for us to have a QB who is better everyone else's and not capitalizing on those rare years in franchise history. The comfort level with just winning the division is really sad considering how special our guy under center is. It's okay...stay on cruise control and drive 55...we'll never get to the ultimate destination but I'm sure there'll be some pretty scenery along the way that will be comforting to many of the passengers.
UserPostedImage
Ted Thompson sits on his hands per former GM: "because they’ve had 25 fricking years of great quarterbacks. Of course it works. Try it without a special quarterback."


Barfarn
8 years ago

The going for it method has proven not to work? Oh, you mean like New England last year? ...or Seattle the year before?

Originally Posted by: uffda udfa 



Why do you try to make points through snarky loaded questions? Why cant you just state an OPINION in a scholarly, respectful and honorable way?

31 other teams "go for it." If two of the 31 make SB, it's either just random luck or other factors caused that result beside "go[ing] for it." Either way this approach doesn't help your argument. It like betting on all the horses in the Kentucky Derby; and jumping up and down cheering because ya picked the winner.

FA acquisitions have destroyed Seattle. A brilliant core of 1st contract studs from 2010-12 [using TT's draft board] producing only 1 SB worthy roster [given the Bosticide], which for that one appearance the ONLY reason is the 1st contract studs and done DESPITE FA moves. If Bradford and Palmer don't get hurt Seattle misses POs in 2014; And no playoffs for Seapigeons in 2015. 29M in dead cap over 2 years because of numerous FA signings and their only 2 contributing FAs [Bennett and Avril] played 19 games in 2014 and got eleven (11) sacks on OLman named other than Sherrod.
texaspackerbacker
8 years ago

The going for it method has proven not to work? Oh, you mean like New England last year? ...or Seattle the year before?

The average span of being in or winning a SB is 16 years? Tell that to Detroit, Philly, Cleveland, Arizona, etc. Heck, tell that one to New England. We have Aaron Rodgers at QB and Favre before him. I think we should've been there a little more than we have if we had the GM'ing/Coaching that we believe we have, but we don't.

I find it hysterical to see that Ted Thompson has a philosophical difference on how to create the best odds at winning the most number of titles. The titles you must be referring to have to be divisional because you sure can't mean Super Bowl. Barfarn...I know that wasn't you.

The truth is and will remain that we've had back to back two of the better QB's to ever play the game and we've been to the SB 3 times. New England has won more than that over less time because why? They are the better organization. Plain and simple. Our GM/GM's and coaching just isn't as good as theirs nor have our total team talent either.

Originally Posted by: uffda udfa 



There's a lot of validity to what you say. It's basically a matter of degree regarding the "draft and develop" thing compared to rampant pursuit of other teams' free agents.

On the one hand, for as ardent a Ted Thompson detractor as you are, the Packer success you yourself describe make him look like a damn genius. On the other hand, it comes down to cause and effect. Is Ted Thompson and the emphasis on draft and development indeed the CAUSE of success? Or is the cause those two magnificent items of good fortune - one under Wolfe, one under Thompson - the extreme skill or dumb luck, take your pick - of getting those two great QBs?

I'm not the hater of Thompson you are, but I do indict him for failing to maximize the situation - being so extreme in his dedication to "draft and develop" that he hasn't put the best team he could have on the field to support his superstar.

Expressing the Good Normal Views of Good Normal Americans.
If Anything I Say Smacks of Extremism, Please Tell Me EXACTLY What.
mi_keys
8 years ago

Yes. I also know what it means for us to have a QB who is better everyone else's and not capitalizing on those rare years in franchise history. The comfort level with just winning the division is really sad considering how special our guy under center is. It's okay...stay on cruise control and drive 55...we'll never get to the ultimate destination but I'm sure there'll be some pretty scenery along the way that will be comforting to many of the passengers.

Originally Posted by: uffda udfa 



When all else fails, just rehash the same baseless accusation that others don't want to win a title.
Born and bred a cheesehead
uffda udfa
8 years ago

When all else fails, just rehash the same baseless accusation that others don't want to win a title.

Originally Posted by: mi_keys 



Oh, his lack of going for it in free agency is the exact opposite of "baseless" but you can think otherwise if you wish.
Ted Thompson is not going all out or "all in" as it were in each individual season. I know you think he does.

UserPostedImage
Ted Thompson sits on his hands per former GM: "because they’ve had 25 fricking years of great quarterbacks. Of course it works. Try it without a special quarterback."


RaiderPride
8 years ago

Yes. I also know what it means for us to have a QB who is better everyone else's and not capitalizing on those rare years in franchise history. The comfort level with just winning the division is really sad considering how special our guy under center is. It's okay...stay on cruise control and drive 55... we'll never get to the ultimate destination but I'm sure there'll be some pretty scenery along the way that will be comforting to many of the passengers.

Originally Posted by: uffda udfa 



"We'll never get to the ultimate destination."

Never? Really?


I have to ask?

Were you in a medically induced coma when Aaron drove away with that sick Chevrolet Camaro for being the MVP after reaching the ultimate destination?
""People Will Probably Never Remember What You Said, And May Never Remember What You Did. However, People Will Always Remember How You Made Them Feel."
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