Cheesey
14 years ago

Is it being negative or looking for the logic behind the optimism?

I don't think Dom Capers can turn this defense around because I think their is a talent problem. I worry about our aging corners. Harris's decline has started and C-Wood is bound to slow down sometime. I don't know what Raji will bring to the table as a rookie or how Kampman will adjust. Will Hawk break out? Will Barnett be at 100% and improve on his past mistakes?

Their are lots of ????? on Defense. If you put a tarp over a leaky roof does it solve the problem or just make it look like you made an attempt to do so. Sanders was a god to most in 07 and now he's the fall guy. I think the talent, and lack of depth is the problem.

"dd80forever" wrote:


You could say those same things about ANY team. Look at Chicago's defense. Do you honestly believe it's as good as it was 3 years ago? I saw where you think they are a #4 team.
But you think the Packers can't improve?
I think they can, and WILL improve. There are full scale changes being made that should address alot of the problems from last season. I don't think what they have done is a "tarp" thrown over a leaking roof.
At least thats how i feel.
You of course are free to keep the negative vibes flowing.
It helps to even things out here.
Makes up for all of us fans that think our chances are pretty good this year.
Honestly.....if i felt as you did, I wouldn't even want to watch any of the games.
UserPostedImage
Dulak
14 years ago

Is it being negative or looking for the logic behind the optimism?

I don't think Dom Capers can turn this defense around because I think their is a talent problem. I worry about our aging corners. Harris's decline has started and C-Wood is bound to slow down sometime. I don't know what Raji will bring to the table as a rookie or how Kampman will adjust. Will Hawk break out? Will Barnett be at 100% and improve on his past mistakes?

Their are lots of ????? on Defense. If you put a tarp over a leaky roof does it solve the problem or just make it look like you made an attempt to do so. Sanders was a god to most in 07 and now he's the fall guy. I think the talent, and lack of depth is the problem.

"dd80forever" wrote:



Those are interesting questions ...

I cant see how our defense will be worse when compared to the last 1/2 of the season of last year.

We should be getting 2 starters back; have 2 1st round picks in the mix up (including the #1 DT in the draft) ... and it appears a heck of a LB in matthews. We also got some other guys from a corner back the steelers safety and a few other guys.

ya woodson and harris could have issues this year but even if they did I see our addittions more then making up for that fact.

From the first interview that dom gave as a packers DC I was impressed with him. Assuming this attitude transfers to his coaching I can see great things coming.

Our D is the thing I am most pumped about this year - well and seeing how our new fullback and Oline (we'll see) does.

remember kampman will still have his handdown 50%~ of the time at least. capers said 3 year transition but who knows maybe if the guys catch on they will do more plays as a full 3-4
longtimefan
14 years ago

Is it being negative or looking for the logic behind the optimism?

I don't think Dom Capers can turn this defense around because I think their is a talent problem. I worry about our aging corners. Harris's decline has started and C-Wood is bound to slow down sometime. I don't know what Raji will bring to the table as a rookie or how Kampman will adjust. Will Hawk break out? Will Barnett be at 100% and improve on his past mistakes?

Their are lots of ????? on Defense. If you put a tarp over a leaky roof does it solve the problem or just make it look like you made an attempt to do so. Sanders was a god to most in 07 and now he's the fall guy. I think the talent, and lack of depth is the problem.

"dd80forever" wrote:




Dom has proven he can get the D to turn around in his 1st season with a team


click me 


When Capers took over the 25th-ranked Jaguars defense in 1999, the Jaguars moved up 21 spots in the rankings and led the league in scoring defense.

And when he changed the Dolphins to a 3-4 in 2006, they went from 18th to fourth in the defensive rankings.

14 years ago



- Our LBers had a pretty rough time; missed assignement or poor tackles

- injuries that had a big impact. Jenkins and Barnett

"pack93z" wrote:



That there still remains a mystery why Moss still has a freaking job yet today.

If there was infighting amongst the Defensive staff.. how isn't he a problem in that infighting.

Scheme or not, the linebackers played tentative reactive ball.. not what I expect to see out of a hard nosed defense.. getting beat is one thing.. getting beat before you react is another.. piss on the scheme.. make a damn play for your ball club.

The play of the linebackers last couple of years at times was embarrassing.. if those inside backers struggle this year.. you better believe I will be back upon the criticizing Moss train.

But I have confidence in the ability of Capers and the collective team that has been assembled around him.. if there is a problem in the coaching style yet in the middle.. I fully expect it to be resolved post haste.

"Dulak" wrote:



You know, losing Jenkins and not having Harrell healthy (again) hurt us, I think. When your D-line doesn't perform up to par, the linebackers don't know what gaps to shoot or cover, and they probably get more and more "reactive" as the season moves on. It will be VERY interesting to see how they play this year. I expect us all to be very happy again that we have Barnett on our team. He is vastly underrated by most fans nowadays, imo.
UserPostedImage
ILikeThePackers39
14 years ago

Is it being negative or looking for the logic behind the optimism?

I don't think Dom Capers can turn this defense around because I think their is a talent problem. I worry about our aging corners. Harris's decline has started and C-Wood is bound to slow down sometime. I don't know what Raji will bring to the table as a rookie or how Kampman will adjust. Will Hawk break out? Will Barnett be at 100% and improve on his past mistakes?

Their are lots of ????? on Defense. If you put a tarp over a leaky roof does it solve the problem or just make it look like you made an attempt to do so. Sanders was a god to most in 07 and now he's the fall guy. I think the talent, and lack of depth is the problem.

"dd80forever" wrote:



Sander's was a "God to most in 07." ?????? What? Are you serious?? I don't remember hardly anyone thinking Sander's was "God." I never really liked him and if you need any proof just see the 2007 NFC Championship game. He was rigid, un-creative, and conservative. Good guy, just not flexible enough.

I think you're giving life to something that doesn't exist there. I remember people giving him props when the defense played a good game, but the general consensus was fairly negative in the forums I attended.

Adding an innovative and experienced defensive coordinator along with some fresh young talent cannot help but at least slightly improve one of the lower ranked defenses in the league. That in itself wins another game or two over last year, not counting Rodger's and others learning curves improving.

I'm not saying there's not worries, but your above argument is just non-sense.

"doddpower" wrote:




Are you serious? Everyone was in love with the Def. in 07.

"dd80forever" wrote:




I wasn't - I liked the players for the most part (some more than others), but I felt from day 1 with Sanders that he couldn't run that defense half as well as Bates did. I hated the lack of creativity and blitzing, and I was never even close to satisfied with the run defense. To me, it was like he didn't even understand the D and was just calling sets from a note card.

As far as some fans having blind optimism, I think the case can be made that your own vision isn't as clear as you'd like to claim it is.

First: Injuries. You may not think that Cullen Jenkins is very good - I don't know, I've not heard your opinion. IMO, the guy is and was the lynchpin for that defense. He's going to be back. As will our entire LB corps, which have been augmented with a kid who should be a strong competitor out of the gate. There's even indication that our own seldom-seen kid Harrell will be heathy, and we'll finally get to see what the kid can do. Am I using injuries as an excuse? Nope - what I am saying is that getting those guys we lost last season to injury back on the field is a reason for some optimism.

Additions: No, we don't know that Raji will come in and be the beast we need in the middle. No team who drafts a player KNOWS that they're getting what they paid for - Minnesota didn't KNOW AP would work out, and I remember constant hand-wringing about whether or not he was injury-prone his entire rookie year. But we can reasonably infer that the kid's measurables, in addition to the fact that he dominated in a big way against top-tier competition in college, indicate that he has good chance to be what we need. Same with Matthews - sure, he could flame out, but there's reason to hope that he'll be what we need on that right side. Again, it's reason, IMO, for some optimism.

Secondary: Yes, they're getting older. But I'm lost as to why you think Woodson is teetering on the precipice when he had a career year last year while playing with a broken toe - that's a little beyond me, and IMO it's also overly pessimistic. Al isn't everything he used to be, but nobody's going to work harder than he is, and he's still better than 90% of the other corners in our division. Williams could be due for a breakout season, as well, and we've got good youth improving behind them. Bigby is a question mark: If he starts the year out healthy, there's a chance we'll see a return to form, and if not we've picked up another guy who knows the scheme. Collins is a pro-bowler, so if you don't like him I can't help you there.

My point is: It's not blind optimism. There are plenty of indicators that this defense will be, at worst, some improvement over last year's defense. Are there question marks? Of course, and anyone here who looks you in the eye with a straight face and guarantees a top-whatever-ranked defense is probably being very optimistic. But to paint this as some pie-in-the-sky optimism based on nothing but faith in some guy in a suit is, to me, ridiculously pessimistic.

There's room in the middle, where the sensible folks sit.
blank
zombieslayer
14 years ago

Is it being negative or looking for the logic behind the optimism?

I don't think Dom Capers can turn this defense around because I think their is a talent problem. I worry about our aging corners. Harris's decline has started and C-Wood is bound to slow down sometime. I don't know what Raji will bring to the table as a rookie or how Kampman will adjust. Will Hawk break out? Will Barnett be at 100% and improve on his past mistakes?

Their are lots of ????? on Defense. If you put a tarp over a leaky roof does it solve the problem or just make it look like you made an attempt to do so. Sanders was a god to most in 07 and now he's the fall guy. I think the talent, and lack of depth is the problem.

"longtimefan" wrote:




Dom has proven he can get the D to turn around in his 1st season with a team


click me 


When Capers took over the 25th-ranked Jaguars defense in 1999, the Jaguars moved up 21 spots in the rankings and led the league in scoring defense.

And when he changed the Dolphins to a 3-4 in 2006, they went from 18th to fourth in the defensive rankings.

"dd80forever" wrote:



Led the league in scoring defense? I love that.

Woody, Nick, and everyone else are scorers. EVERY time they get INTs, there's a good chance they score a TD.

Thanks for finding these. I do think our DBs are top tier. Our problem is our DL. This draft hopefully solved this.

I also hated our DCs last year. We failed to make adjustments. You cannot beat top tier NFL teams if you can't adjust defensively. Dom should fix that.

DD80 did have a good point about talent missing, but hopefully this year it will be different. I think the DL failing last year brought down the entire D by exhausting our LBs to the point they looked useless (but the true blame goes to the DL for not doing their jobs).

What we need - Jenkins to stay healthy, Raji to prove he's the best DT of the '09 draft, and for Bustin to prove he's not a bust. Bustin doesn't even have to be good. He just needs to play 16 games and contribute enough to let the other DL teammates some rest.

We'll need some sacks. in '07, we got 36. In '08, we dropped to 27. Dom's scheme should contribute, and of course with Jenkins healthy, that sack total should go up too. Knock on wood. We'll need healthy defensive players in '09.
My man Donald Driver
UserPostedImage
(thanks to Pack93z for the pic)
2010 will be seen as the beginning of the new Packers dynasty. 🇹🇹 🇲🇲 🇦🇷
Pack93z
14 years ago

Is it being negative or looking for the logic behind the optimism?

I don't think Dom Capers can turn this defense around because I think their is a talent problem. I worry about our aging corners. Harris's decline has started and C-Wood is bound to slow down sometime. I don't know what Raji will bring to the table as a rookie or how Kampman will adjust. Will Hawk break out? Will Barnett be at 100% and improve on his past mistakes?

Their are lots of ????? on Defense. If you put a tarp over a leaky roof does it solve the problem or just make it look like you made an attempt to do so. Sanders was a god to most in 07 and now he's the fall guy. I think the talent, and lack of depth is the problem.

"longtimefan" wrote:




Dom has proven he can get the D to turn around in his 1st season with a team


click me 


When Capers took over the 25th-ranked Jaguars defense in 1999, the Jaguars moved up 21 spots in the rankings and led the league in scoring defense.

And when he changed the Dolphins to a 3-4 in 2006, they went from 18th to fourth in the defensive rankings.

"dd80forever" wrote:



To expand upon it.. Thread about Kampman into said defense... 

I am so jacked about this defenses "potential" I could suit up today and just hit something.. lol.. then pay for it for a couple of days. 😉
"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
evad04
14 years ago



I wasn't - I liked the players for the most part (some more than others), but I felt from day 1 with Sanders that he couldn't run that defense half as well as Bates did. I hated the lack of creativity and blitzing, and I was never even close to satisfied with the run defense. To me, it was like he didn't even understand the D and was just calling sets from a note card.

As far as some fans having blind optimism, I think the case can be made that your own vision isn't as clear as you'd like to claim it is.

First: Injuries. You may not think that Cullen Jenkins is very good - I don't know, I've not heard your opinion. IMO, the guy is and was the lynchpin for that defense. He's going to be back. As will our entire LB corps, which have been augmented with a kid who should be a strong competitor out of the gate. There's even indication that our own seldom-seen kid Harrell will be heathy, and we'll finally get to see what the kid can do. Am I using injuries as an excuse? Nope - what I am saying is that getting those guys we lost last season to injury back on the field is a reason for some optimism.

Additions: No, we don't know that Raji will come in and be the beast we need in the middle. No team who drafts a player KNOWS that they're getting what they paid for - Minnesota didn't KNOW AP would work out, and I remember constant hand-wringing about whether or not he was injury-prone his entire rookie year. But we can reasonably infer that the kid's measurables, in addition to the fact that he dominated in a big way against top-tier competition in college, indicate that he has good chance to be what we need. Same with Matthews - sure, he could flame out, but there's reason to hope that he'll be what we need on that right side. Again, it's reason, IMO, for some optimism.

Secondary: Yes, they're getting older. But I'm lost as to why you think Woodson is teetering on the precipice when he had a career year last year while playing with a broken toe - that's a little beyond me, and IMO it's also overly pessimistic. Al isn't everything he used to be, but nobody's going to work harder than he is, and he's still better than 90% of the other corners in our division. Williams could be due for a breakout season, as well, and we've got good youth improving behind them. Bigby is a question mark: If he starts the year out healthy, there's a chance we'll see a return to form, and if not we've picked up another guy who knows the scheme. Collins is a pro-bowler, so if you don't like him I can't help you there.

My point is: It's not blind optimism. There are plenty of indicators that this defense will be, at worst, some improvement over last year's defense. Are there question marks? Of course, and anyone here who looks you in the eye with a straight face and guarantees a top-whatever-ranked defense is probably being very optimistic. But to paint this as some pie-in-the-sky optimism based on nothing but faith in some guy in a suit is, to me, ridiculously pessimistic.

There's room in the middle, where the sensible folks sit.

"ILikeThePackers39" wrote:


Excellent post. One element of our defense from last year that is rarely mentioned is how well we did with interceptions. The Pack ranked third in the NFL in interceptions. When you consider how effectively teams were running on us, that statistic is even more impressive (you know, run sets up the pass, etc.).

I think interceptions can be "lucky" which is why one can't necessarily expect the same type of production this season. But doesn't it logically follow that if our run defense (and overall defense) improves even marginally that it will help the playmakers in our secondary? I think so.
William Henderson didn't have to run people over. His preferred method was levitation.
"I'm a reasonable man, get off my case."
zombieslayer
14 years ago



I think interceptions can be "lucky" which is why one can't necessarily expect the same type of production this season. But doesn't it logically follow that if our run defense (and overall defense) improves even marginally that it will help the playmakers in our secondary? I think so.

"evad04" wrote:



True about INTs being lucky, but when you have that opportunity, you have to take advantage of it.

Woody knows exactly when to get a jump on the ball and he's actually getting better with age. Thus is why his INT totals are IMPROVING, not going down.

My big beef with Collins in '07 was that he'd drop INTs. Dropping INTs is one of my big pet peeves, for INTs stop a drive right there.

In '08, he took that criticism to heart (I'm sure the Coaches said the same thing) and held on to his "lucky" opportunities. The thing is, if the scheme is good, you'll get your lucky opportunities. You just have to take advantage of them.

Capers' scheme will get us those opportunities. Plus it helps that we have ball hawks in the secondary.

As for the 2nd part in what you said, agreed. That sounds logical.
My man Donald Driver
UserPostedImage
(thanks to Pack93z for the pic)
2010 will be seen as the beginning of the new Packers dynasty. 🇹🇹 🇲🇲 🇦🇷
Nonstopdrivel
14 years ago
I love the point you made that Harrell doesn't have to be good -- he just has to be there. One of the strengths of our '07 defense was that our line remained fresh because it was continually being rotated. As long as Harrell can spell the rest of the line and keep them fresh, we'll see a dramatic improvement in the line's performance.

I still want to see Harrell on a short leash, however. I think it will be a strategic mistake to roll into the season with him on the PUP. If he can't start on Day 1, I think he needs to go. The cap hit will be minimal and it will be time to give his successor a chance to step up and succeed.
UserPostedImage
Users browsing this topic
    Fan Shout
    buckeyepackfan (4h) : Lions extend Penei Soul 4yrs - 112mil
    buckeyepackfan (4h) : Lions extend St. Brown 4 years 120mil and
    Mucky Tundra (5h) : Now look, trading up to 13 to take a TE might not seem like a good idea later but it will be later!
    dfosterf (7h) : (Your trade up mock post)
    dfosterf (8h) : Mucky- The only thing fun to watch would be me flipping the f out if Gute goes up to 13 and grabs Brock Bowers, lol
    beast (11h) : DT Byron Murphy II, Texas... whom some believe is the next Aaron Donald (or the closest thing to Donald)
    Zero2Cool (12h) : What? And who?
    Mucky Tundra (17h) : *sad Mucky noises*
    Mucky Tundra (17h) : @JoeJHoyt Murphy said he’s been told he won’t slide past pick No. 16.
    wpr (23-Apr) : Just about time to watch Sonny Weaver stick it to the seahags. I never get tired of it.
    Martha Careful (23-Apr) : *game plan
    Martha Careful (23-Apr) : IMHO, not even close. He is not a guy you game play around.
    Mucky Tundra (23-Apr) : is Aiyuk worth a 1st rounder?
    Zero2Cool (23-Apr) : 49ers are seeking a 1st round pick in exchange for WR Brandon Aiyuk
    Mucky Tundra (22-Apr) : Based on Gutes comments, now I don't feel as silly having 13 picks in my mock the other day
    Zero2Cool (22-Apr) : Zach Wilson to Broncos.
    Zero2Cool (22-Apr) : Gutekunst says he'd love to have 13 or 14 picks. He's trading back huh lol
    beast (22-Apr) : Someday we'll have a draft betting scandal
    beast (21-Apr) : Sometimes looking extremely amazing, sometimes looking extremely lost
    beast (21-Apr) : I haven't looked into the QBs, but some have suggested Maye has some of the most extremely inconsistent tape they've seen
    beast (21-Apr) : Well it also sounds like Patriots are listening to trade offers, not that seriously considering any, but listening means they aren't locked
    Zero2Cool (21-Apr) : Maye needs to be AFC
    Mucky Tundra (21-Apr) : Not liking the idea of the Vikings getting Maye
    Zero2Cool (21-Apr) : Vikings HC joked that he may or may not have sent flowers to Bob Kraft. That's where rumor came from.
    beast (21-Apr) : Can't tell if this is real or BS, but some rumors about a possible Patriots/Vikings trade for #3 overall
    dfosterf (21-Apr) : One playbook to my knowledge. I was shooting for facetious.
    beast (20-Apr) : I'm not sure they have different playbooks for different OL positions, and Dillard run blocking is supposedly worse than his pass blocking..
    dfosterf (19-Apr) : The only problem with that is he isn't a guard either.
    dfosterf (19-Apr) : Put him at right guard. That is where he will be coached. That is where he will compete. He is not even allowed to look at the LT playbook.
    dfosterf (18-Apr) : Kidding aside, I hope the best for him.
    dfosterf (18-Apr) : Went to a Titans board. One comment there. Not very long. I quote: "LOL" They don't sound overly upset about our aquisition.
    beast (18-Apr) : OT Dillard has been absolutely horrible... like OG Newman levels
    dfosterf (18-Apr) : Suit him up and have him stand in front of the big board as a draft day cautionary tale.
    Zero2Cool (18-Apr) : Packers sign T Andre Dillard.
    Mucky Tundra (18-Apr) : Adds most of the information this time of year comes from agents.
    Mucky Tundra (18-Apr) : @RealAlexBarth Bill Belichick says accurate draft information doesn't leak from teams until about 12 hours before the draft. Adds most of th
    Mucky Tundra (18-Apr) : I am very happy that for moment, Jordan Love seems like a normal human being
    Zero2Cool (17-Apr) : Belichick * whatever
    Zero2Cool (17-Apr) : "There's a lot of depth at Offensive Tackle and Wide Receiver." Bill Bellichick
    Zero2Cool (17-Apr) : Thanks! I can't believe it's over haha
    Martha Careful (16-Apr) : Congratulations
    Zero2Cool (16-Apr) : Boom. Student Loan. $0.00. Only took about 20 years.
    Zero2Cool (14-Apr) : Packers DT Kenny Clark: New defensive coordinator Jeff Hafley will 'allow us to be way more disruptive'
    Zero2Cool (12-Apr) : Saints have agreed to terms on a contract with former Packers wide receiver Equanimeous St. Brown.
    beast (12-Apr) : No, but of it's for legislation, then half of the country will find it evil, not good, whatever it says....
    Mucky Tundra (12-Apr) : Draft is still 2 weeks away. UGH
    dhazer (11-Apr) : Does anyone know of a good AI generator to create letters of Support for legislation?
    Zero2Cool (11-Apr) : Gordon "Red" Batty retires as equipment manager
    Zero2Cool (10-Apr) : Sounds like that's pretty certain now.
    Zero2Cool (10-Apr) : Packers "at" Eagles in Brazil. Week One
    Please sign in to use Fan Shout
    2023 Packers Schedule
    Sunday, Sep 10 @ 3:25 PM
    Bears
    Sunday, Sep 17 @ 12:00 PM
    Falcons
    Sunday, Sep 24 @ 12:00 PM
    SAINTS
    Thursday, Sep 28 @ 7:15 PM
    LIONS
    Monday, Oct 9 @ 7:15 PM
    Raiders
    Sunday, Oct 22 @ 3:25 PM
    Broncos
    Sunday, Oct 29 @ 12:00 PM
    VIKINGS
    Sunday, Nov 5 @ 12:00 PM
    RAMS
    Sunday, Nov 12 @ 12:00 PM
    Steelers
    Sunday, Nov 19 @ 12:00 PM
    CHARGERS
    Thursday, Nov 23 @ 11:30 AM
    Lions
    Sunday, Dec 3 @ 7:20 PM
    CHIEFS
    Monday, Dec 11 @ 7:15 PM
    Giants
    Sunday, Dec 17 @ 12:00 PM
    BUCCANEERS
    Sunday, Dec 24 @ 12:00 PM
    Panthers
    Sunday, Dec 31 @ 7:20 PM
    Vikings
    Sunday, Jan 7 @ 3:25 PM
    BEARS
    Sunday, Jan 14 @ 3:30 PM
    Cowboys
    Saturday, Jan 20 @ 7:15 PM
    49ers
    Recent Topics
    3h / Green Bay Packers Talk / Mucky Tundra

    6h / Random Babble / beast

    9h / Green Bay Packers Talk / dfosterf

    22-Apr / Green Bay Packers Talk / Mucky Tundra

    22-Apr / Green Bay Packers Talk / Mucky Tundra

    21-Apr / Fantasy Sports Talk / dfosterf

    21-Apr / Green Bay Packers Talk / dfosterf

    19-Apr / Random Babble / Zero2Cool

    18-Apr / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

    18-Apr / Random Babble / Mucky Tundra

    18-Apr / Green Bay Packers Talk / Mucky Tundra

    17-Apr / Green Bay Packers Talk / Mucky Tundra

    17-Apr / Green Bay Packers Talk / Mucky Tundra

    17-Apr / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

    17-Apr / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

    Headlines
    Copyright © 2006 - 2024 PackersHome.com™. All Rights Reserved.