We control our own destiny.· Page 5

zombieslayer
Registered

14 years ago

As it stands right now and i would've never said this at the beginning of the year But i would take Big Ben over alot of the qbs right now. You claim Rodgers is doing so great because of his o-line sucks well Ben has a really bad line and if it wasn't for him getting away from sure sacks he would be right there with Rodgers sack totals. Look at the yards and tds Ben is there with fewer games and alot less to work with at wr.

But your right Warner will have more tds after this weeks game then Rodgers and will pass for over 4000 yards again this year but hes having a down year.

I have seen alot of Ben this year and he just impresses me on how 3 guys can be hanging on him and he will get away and complete a pass down the field.

"dhazer" wrote:

No, I don't claim Aaron's doing great "because" our OL sucks. I said he's doing great "despite" our OL sucking. HUGE difference.

Warner's bad years are still impressive. He's a Hall of Famer fo shizzle. But I'm just talking about '09. Aaron has more TDs, less INTs, more YPG, and is the NFL's #1 scrambler. It's funny about Warner, that we're even discussing this is a bad year for him. Absolutely amazing (Warner).

My man Donald Driver

(thanks to Pack93z for the pic)
2010 will be seen as the beginning of the new Packers dynasty. 🇹🇹 🇲🇲 🇦🇷

go.pack.go.
Veteran Member Topic Starter

14 years ago

#42

well Ben has a really bad line and if it wasn't for him getting away from sure sacks he would be right there with Rodgers sack totals.

dhazer wrote:

Okay, first of all, Rodgers is either as good or just about as good as him at getting away from pressure. You put a stationary QB back there that can run for his life in place of Rodgers and I guarantee you that we have about 60 sacks allowed this season. So don't even say that the Steelers line is worse than ours.

I don't see how you can even begin to think that Big Ben is a better QB than Rodgers. It's quite obvious that they would have NEVER won that Superbowl without that defense. I don't see how you can even argue that.

Yeah, Warner got his team there with out a solid defense. They were mediocre at best, IMHO. You put Ben on the Cardinals last year and there's no way that the Cards even get to the Superbowl.

Now, let's compare Ben and Rodgers, individually. I'm going to leave out the offensive line and defense and all of that. Individual stats:

Rodgers: 22 TD; 5 INT; 3,136 YDS; 104.9 RTG.

Rothelisberger: 17 TD; 10 INT; 2,867 YDS; 98.6 RTG.

And even with Rodgers having been played one more game, I don't see any of Ben's stats being better than Aaron's AFTER they play the Ravens.

I don't think there's any question that Rodgers is having the better season.

Rockmolder
Honored Member

14 years ago

#43

"dhazer" wrote:

I think that Big Ben has impressed a lot of people. He has some nice pocket awareness and an amazing frame for a QB. I wouldn't call their O-line as bad as ours, but it's not that far off.

That said, he makes a lot more mistakes. His higher amount of ints is directly connected to his fewer TDs. He throws it into coverage more, makes mistakes. Having him scramble around like that is fun to see and helps them a lot, but it also hurts them a lot.

I'm not saying that Ben is a bad QB. He's great. I just don't think that he's on Rodgers level.

I do think that he's better than Eli, but I just hated that Eli got declared the worlds greatest QB after his SB victory, while riding on his defense and running game. Have to say that he has been improving lately.

djcubez
Senior Member

14 years ago

#44

This Big Ben versus Rodgers argument is ridiculous. First of all, Roethlisberger wins because he has two super bowl rings, who cares if he had the number one defense? Didn't he take his team down the field to score the winning touchdown in the last Super Bowl at the very end of the game? He's a proven winner and nothing can supplant that.

Yes, stat-wise Rodgers is a better QB, it's a no-brainer. However when you watch Ben play he just gets the game. He has a level of understanding that most quarterbacks don't. He takes a lot of bad sacks but half the time he gets out of them and makes a play. He inspires his teammates and makes them play better. I'm not saying Rodgers doesn't do these things but he had more time to prepare while sitting behind Favre for three years. Roethlisberger was thrust in as a rookie and went 15-1. A lot of that is the defense but for a a first-year QB that's impressive. Until Aaron gets to the playoffs and starts winning big games against good teams he can't be considered equivalent to Roethlisberger. Rodgers may be the better passer but Big Ben is simply a winner and a playmaker.

RaiderPride
Senior Member

14 years ago

#45

HAZER...

I truly think that you are kidding around. I think you get a kick out of the responses you get by bringing down Arron.

I think you are a die-hard Arron/Packer fan who just gets a kick out of posting this stuff just to get a "RISE" out of people.

In fact... I think you get a "RISE" out of Arron. I think you really love this kid. And you are just playing with us all here.

I think Aaron is your favorite player in the NFL. And this is just fun for you.

You are great for this forum... I mean that. I love your posts.

""People Will Probably Never Remember What You Said, And May Never Remember What You Did. However, People Will Always Remember How You Made Them Feel."

Rockmolder
Honored Member

14 years ago

#46

"djcubez" wrote:

So what on earth does that stand for? Being a winner? Do you consider Trent Dilfer a better QB than Rodgers because he's a winner? And what about Marino? He's a worse QB than Big Ben because he had a bad supporting cast his entire career?

I'm pretty sure that I could be a winner in that first Super Bowl the Steelers won. He worked against them more than he did with them.

That said, Ben has been doing pretty well, now he's carrying the team, but notice anything in the record? He's not carrying his team now his defense isn't the nr. 1. And that's with a pretty potent running game, which he's had his entire career, as well.

I don't think that he's replacable with just any QB. I actually think that he's one of the betters guys in the league. I don't think, however, that he's as good as Rodgers. I actually would've put Cutler ahead of him at the start of the season, but I guess that that isn't true, anymore.

British
Registered

14 years ago

#47

Trotting out the old line of 'he's better because he has a superbowl ring' comes across as simply thick skulled analysis.

By that reasoning Trent Dilfer is better than Dan Marino.

Of all sports Football relies more on THE TEAM than any other. A great secondary can get picked apart without a pass rush. Likewise great pass rushers can be nullified if the secondary isn't covering receivers.

A great QB with no receivers or OLinemen is likely going to get killed, while a mediocre QB with time, protection and some brilliant offensive weapons can succeed.

Rex Grossman was one game from being a SB winner.

Winning teams hardly ever come down to just one man which is why judging a QB on W-L record is so stupid. It sounds all tough and clever but its just not.

Big Ben is a good quarterback but it's not just 'because he has 2 superbowl rings'. You're going to have to come up with some better evidence than that.

Does that make him twice as good as Favre? And Bart Starr won 5 NFL championships. Is he five times as good as Favre? And they, including Dilfer, are all infinitely better than Marino who didn't win any.

djcubez
Senior Member

14 years ago

#48

"Rockmolder" wrote:

"djcubez" wrote:

Here's how Roethlisberger ranks throughout the years.

2004: 22nd in Yards, 19th in TDs, 5th in QB Rating, 4th in COMP%
2005: 21st in Yards, 14th in TDs, 3rd in QB Rating, 9th in COMP% (missed 4 games this season)
2006: 8th in Yards, 13th in TDs, 21st in QB Rating, 19th in COMP%
2007: 14th in Yards, 3rd in TDs, 2nd in QB Rating, 7th in COMP%
2008: 14th in Yards, 15th in TDs, 24th in QB Rating, 21st in COMP%
2009: 6th in Yards, 9th in TDs, 8th in QB Rating, 3rd in COMP%

He's had pretty up and down years statistically but not bad overall. Here's the stats I find important:

2004: 6 fourth quarter comebacks, 15 wins, 1 playoff win
2005: 2 fourth quarter comebacks, 11 wins, 4 playoff wins
2006: 3 fourth quarter comebacks, 8 wins
2007: 2 fourth quarter comebacks, 10 wins
2008: 7 fourth quarter comebacks, 12 wins, 3 playoff wins
2009: 1 fourth quarter comeback, 6 wins

Roethlisberger has an 8-2 playoff record. Roethlisberger had SIX fourth quarter comebacks in his ROOKIE season. Roethlisberger seamlessly went through a head coach and offensive coordinator change.

Roethlisberger is simply a winner, that's my argument and I'm sticking to it. No one's saying Rodgers' can't be better, he's just not there yet. In fact Rodger's has only beaten three teams coming into a game with a winning record his whole career (2009 Dallas (7-2), 2008 Colts (3-2) & Bears (5-4)).

EDIT: Yes, I agree that judging a player's career based on wins and losses is not the best comparison. However the QB is the most important position in football. The QB gets the ball on every offensive play (excluding wildcat/special teams). The QB makes reads on the defense. The QB makes adjustments at the line. The QB chooses wear and who to throw the ball to. The QB is ultimately the guide to the offense and without a good QB teams rarely succeed. Name me 5 QB's that have been horrendous and have won a Super Bowl. Dilfer may not be a better passer than Marino but he made good decisions that helped his team win games. The team with the most points wins football games, the offensive unit scores points and the QB is in charge of the offense. Therefore the QB, over any other player on the football field, is directly tied to the wins and losses of his football team. To state otherwise is ignorant.

EDIT 2: Please don't call me a Rodgers-hater either. I love the shit out of Rodgers and believe we got very lucky having him on our team.

Nonstopdrivel
Preferred Member

14 years ago

#49

The argument is preposterous. (I'd use spicier words, but I'm trying to be polite.) Leaning on the argument of "intangibles" is to take this debate out of the realm of science and relegate it to something mystical, which I refuse to do.

Furthermore, to argue that Roethlisberger is by default a better quarterback because he has two rings is to compare teams, not quarterbacks. We're trying to compare quarterbacks here; in order to do that, we must separate the quarterback from his team. There is such a thing as winning a Super Bowl in spite of your quarterback, and that's what the Steelers (not to mention the Ravens) have managed to do. Unquestionably, Roethlisberger has played for winning teams, studded with probable Hall of Famers, while Rodgers has not. That's not a mark on Rodgers -- that's a mark on his team and on the staff assembling and preparing the team.

Rodgers took over team whose defense became decimated with injuries and still put out an amazing performance. Roethlisberger and Dilfer had the luxury of playing with some of the most incredible defensive units ever assembled, and their numbers were paltry compared to Rodgers'. The fact that Roethlisberger had to have 6 comeback wins in his rookie year, despite the overpowering defense, shows how anemic their offensive output was. Comeback wins aren't a sign of greatness in my eyes. They're a symptom of a failure to put a team away early in the game.

I find it ironic, yet all too predictable, that a lot of the same people who came up with this arbitrary criterion that Rodgers had to pull a victory out of his ass within the last two minutes of a game still aren't willing to give him the credit he deserves. Yet somehow, just because after a mediocre game, Roethlisberger was able to capture lightning in a bottle and lead a final desperation drive, he's somehow a great quarterback? No. In order to get an accurate picture, we must examine the entire corpus of work, not a few isolated pieces; and despite some great moments, Roethlisberger's overall body of work is hardly stellar.

I showed exhaustively in another thread that despite enduring adversity the likes of which Favre never could have imagined, Rodgers is assembling perhaps the greatest portfolio of first- and second-year performances in the history of the NFL. Yet people still aren't satisfied. Incredible.

The Ravens and Steelers won rings in spite of their quarterbacks. The Packers are losing in spite of their quarterback. Even in his second year, Rodgers stands head and shoulders above Roethlisberger, and there's really no objective, balanced way to argue otherwise.

dhazer
Veteran Member

14 years ago

#50

I guess you didn't watch the Super Bowl last year with Ben making a Super Bowl winning drive? Or that he is right there this year with Rodgers in yards passing, oh and of course his career record will have to suck for the next 5 years for Rodgers to even come close to catching him in that. And do we forget that Warner had his tea in the Super Bowl last year and he don't live off a defense. So i really don't know how you folks are basing your opinion that Rodgers is the best qb in the remaining games.

"zombieslayer" wrote:

Warner is incredible. He's having an off year though.

Big Ben was the absolute WORST QB ever to win a SB. Ever. Look up the stats.

And as I said, history shows you can win a SB with a #1 D and not much else.

Last year's SB was lost on one play by Kurt Warner, throwing an INT on 1st and Goal from the 1 that was returned by a TD. That's 14 points right there. And guess who had the #1 D in the NFL last year? That's right - the Steelers. They allowed only 13.9 points per game. #1.

Aaron's the 3rd best QB in the NFC right now behind my main man Brett and Drew Brees. In the AFC, I'd take Brady and Manning over him and that's it. That puts Aaron at #5 in the NFL.

Let's now look at some stats...

QB rating - Favre, Brees, Aaron
TDs - Rodgers and Brees are tied for #1 and Favre and Manning are tied for #3. Note though that Rodgers played one more game so he'll more than likely drop to #4 or #5 if Brady has another Brady day.
Yards per game - Manning, Brees, Schaub, Ben R, Aaron
Scrambling - Aaron alone at #1 and tied for #1 in rushing TDs for QBs

Pretty impressive considering he's behind the WORST OL in the NFL.

Oh, forgot to add Aaron's TDs/INTs vs Big Ben's:

Aaron   22   5
Roeth   17   10

"dhazer" wrote:

Well if we are going strictly off of stats we know who was the best qb of all-time then 😛 Thats right Warren Moon if you count his CFL and NFL stats together 😛

Just Imagine this for the next 6-9 years. What a ride it will be 🙂 (PS, Zero should charge for this)

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