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Offline dingus  
#26 Posted : Thursday, July 29, 2010 2:29:47 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
Hell of a post Zero, well stated.

They Should be showing the championship games on NFLN this weekend or next though and it might be worth checking out again cuz Formo's right, the Vikes had a lot to do with beating themselves in that game.


Guess I seem to take the whole beating yourself more of an excuse than reason. I'm not saying the Saints were more talented, but when a team forces you to make mistakes, and then capitalize on them, I thought that was the point of being an aggressive defense. Force your opponent to buckle and screw up.

I don't really remember the game too much, so I could be wrong. Maybe the Vikings OL was sacking Brett and the WR switching uniforms in the middle of the routes. :P Nah seriously, I just don't buy it.

I can't say I understood it when a fan says we beat ourselves, hell, even I've said it in the past, but really, what does that mean? How does a team beat itself?

Certain things I could understand, say missing a 30 some yard FG with limited pressure on the kicker. QB with plenty of time, has an open WR and throws it into coverage and intercepted. Fumbling the ball without anyone touching you. Etc, things of that nature, sure I get that, but I didn't see too many mistakes that weren't attributed to the Saints whipping the shit out of the Vikings in a way the Packers could only dream of doing.

Or is saying your team beat itself a way of saying they choked?


:shrug:


Don't get me wrong, the Saints played well and yes, I suppose beating themselves could be replaced with choked.

The 12 man penalty was a serious choke, who's fault was it? Favre for not staying out of the huddle and counting or the coaching staff for lack of awareness?

I'd say the pick by Porter was a huge choke by #4, but we as Packer fans have grown accustomed to that type of play, Favres biggest weakness was not trusting his teammates when the game was on the line. Run a few yards and slide, give Longwell the chance to make a 52 yarder. Pretty simple.

All that being said, I agree that the Saints did not unlock the secret to beating Favre. They played a tough, physical game and wound up with more points at the end. (The Vikings just helped em a bit!)
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Offline Dexter_Sinister  
#27 Posted : Saturday, July 31, 2010 4:18:14 AM(UTC)
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I could believe the Vikings gave away that game if it was a fluke for NO to get a pile of TOs. But it wasn't a fluke, they made their living off turnovers all year. If you watch the highlights of the game, every one of the turnovers except the bad exchange and the final int were forced. The exchange may have been forced a little by the penetration altering APs path. I didn't see it from a decent angle.

Favre also had a crappy but gutsy game. A 70 rating is bad for an all star. 61% completions, 2 ints and a fumble. Fairly close to his typical post season loss for the last 12 years.

AP didn't lose any fumbles unless you hang the exchange on him, then he gets one. Still less than Favre's 2 ints.

The thing NO did differently was not focusing on AP to the point of letting Favre have his way. Everything was contested. They didn't go for his fakes, didn't try and jump up and knock down a pass and didn't go for the ball. Just drive through him. AP got got his yards but for the most part was contained and frustrated.
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Offline Formo  
#28 Posted : Saturday, July 31, 2010 8:01:40 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
I could believe the Vikings gave away that game if it was a fluke for NO to get a pile of TOs. But it wasn't a fluke, they made their living off turnovers all year. If you watch the highlights of the game, every one of the turnovers except the bad exchange and the final int were forced. The exchange may have been forced a little by the penetration altering APs path. I didn't see it from a decent angle.

Favre also had a crappy but gutsy game. A 70 rating is bad for an all star. 61% completions, 2 ints and a fumble. Fairly close to his typical post season loss for the last 12 years.

AP didn't lose any fumbles unless you hang the exchange on him, then he gets one. Still less than Favre's 2 ints.

The thing NO did differently was not focusing on AP to the point of letting Favre have his way. Everything was contested. They didn't go for his fakes, didn't try and jump up and knock down a pass and didn't go for the ball. Just drive through him. AP got got his yards but for the most part was contained and frustrated.


AP lost 2 fumbles if I remember correctly. Also, personally, I feel they should have given him the rock more, despite the turnovers.. He was cutting through that defense like a hot knife through butter.

Yes, the Saints made a living last season by causing turnovers, but the Vikings still never turned the ball over more than 3 times ALL season long. and to have 5 in a game is bad.. even against an opportunistic defense.

Pop quiz: Which of these quarterbacks proved (or has proven) to be the toughest to intercept?

a) Johnny Unitas

b) Roger Staubach

c) Bart Starr

d) Bob Griese

e) Boomer Esiason

f) Brett Favre

HINT:
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Online Rockmolder  
#29 Posted : Saturday, July 31, 2010 11:53:59 AM(UTC)
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That list is not selective, at all.

Unitas and Starr played in an era where you could pretty much club receivers to the ground without getting a flag.

Griese played in that same NFL for a short while and he might just be the worst played to enter the HoF.

I hardly think of Esiason as elite. I'd even take Ken Anderson over him.

Staubach played in a different time, as well, but at least he got the same level of publicity and love as Favre did and he was one hell of a player in his time.
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Offline Formo  
#30 Posted : Saturday, July 31, 2010 2:16:44 PM(UTC)
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The players picked were the ones I saw in an article. Apparently the only reason Boomer was added because he has been known to be almost anti-Favre when it comes to his INT stats.

You can look at a handful of other Pro Bowl / HoF QBs...

Troy Aikmen: 3% (4,715 attempts, 141 INTs)
Terry Bradshaw: 5.4% (3,901 attempts, 210 INTs)
John Elway: 3.1% (7,250 attempts, 226 INTs)
Dan Marino: 3% (8,358 attempts, 252 INTs)
Joe Montana: 2.6% (5,391 attempts, 139 INTs)**
Warren Moon: 3.4% (6,823 attempts, 233 INTs)
Steve Young: 2.6% (4,149 attempts, 107 INTs)

So really, in comparison to the greatest of the greats.. Favre still is in their league. Just get the average of those 7 QB's INT % and you get... -=drum roll=- 3.3% Which actually surprises me and should surprise some of you, too. I would have thought his % was WAY higher. Now, the question remains.. was last year lack of INTs a mirage or prove that he's one of the greatest within the right system?

**: My personal all time favorite QB
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Offline Zero2Cool  
#31 Posted : Saturday, July 31, 2010 2:28:19 PM(UTC)
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Is it the time quantity of interceptions or the timing of interceptions that sticks to Brett the most?

The only 7 you toss in the regular season mean squat when you throw 2 in the championship game that all but seal your teams defeat.

Go ahead, chuck 20 during the regular season, but go ahead and give me 0 in the post season.
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Offline Dexter_Sinister  
#32 Posted : Sunday, August 1, 2010 3:15:33 AM(UTC)
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First, Favre's int percentage perception. Favre was tied for 51st for his career. Behind Jeff Blake, Trent Green and Tony Banks. Ironically, the guy at the top of the list, Aaron Rodgers with 1.8. You can cherry pick who ever to make him look good or bad. The fact remains that he is pretty far down the list. The thing about Starr is when they really needed him, he showed up. during 64-66 seasons, Starr had a total 16 INTs in 42 consecutive games. We won 3 championships during that run.

Second, Give or Take? The Saints made a living taking the ball from everybody they played. The fact that the Vikings were not careless with the ball last year, supports my assessment that the Saints took it from them. The Saints were better at taking the ball than the Viking were at keeping it.

Pop quiz, did you see all the highlights of the NO players knocking the ball out? They were not drops, they were strips. They were punching and ripping at the ball every tackle. They tried harder to take it than the Vikings to keep it.

Third, was he for real of was it an Illusion? I saw a lot of INTs that were dropped. San Fran dropped one right before that throw. Balt dropped one that would have stopped the game winning drive. Woodson had one in the endzone called back by a bad PI call in MN. Some passes were thrown up for grabs and the receiver came down with it. Typical triple coverage pop ups. I think it was not the system. He could easily have had double the total he ended up with. I think reality will slap them in the back of the neck this year.

Fouth. Choking hazard, Favres losing efforts in the playoffs, he has a rating under 70 for the last 12 years. Attesting to the choking Zero was referring to.
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Offline Zero2Cool  
#33 Posted : Sunday, August 1, 2010 3:20:22 AM(UTC)
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Good stuff, but the dropped INT's, every QB has at least a half dozen of those babies. Just like they have a few that are the WR's fault for tipping or running the wrong route.
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Offline Dexter_Sinister  
#34 Posted : Sunday, August 1, 2010 4:08:49 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
Good stuff, but the dropped INT's, every QB has at least a half dozen of those babies. Just like they have a few that are the WR's fault for tipping or running the wrong route.


Everybody has dropped INTs, sometimes you are luckier than others. When they drop game changing INTs are what I was talking about. They seemed to have some lucky bounces. Some were stone hands, hit em in the numbers drops.

We missed a couple against Pitt that would have sealed that game. Woodson in particular going across the middle in underneath coverage a couple of plays before the game winner.

That is they way it goes. Some years you are unlucky and every ball has a weird bounce and goes the wrong way and some years go your way. I think this was one of the going your way years for Favre. Until NO that is.
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Offline Formo  
#35 Posted : Sunday, August 1, 2010 6:23:44 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
First, Favre's int percentage perception. Favre was tied for 51st for his career. Behind Jeff Blake, Trent Green and Tony Banks. Ironically, the guy at the top of the list, Aaron Rodgers with 1.8. You can cherry pick who ever to make him look good or bad. The fact remains that he is pretty far down the list. The thing about Starr is when they really needed him, he showed up. during 64-66 seasons, Starr had a total 16 INTs in 42 consecutive games. We won 3 championships during that run.


Perception? The numbers are numbers. The INT%, TD% and completion % to me are the most important individual stat for a QB. My point is Favre isn't as bad with the INT part as we all thought he was. But you can keep denying those numbers all you want. I already compared him to the NFL best when it came down to it.

Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
Second, Give or Take? The Saints made a living taking the ball from everybody they played. The fact that the Vikings were not careless with the ball last year, supports my assessment that the Saints took it from them. The Saints were better at taking the ball than the Viking were at keeping it.

Pop quiz, did you see all the highlights of the NO players knocking the ball out? They were not drops, they were strips. They were punching and ripping at the ball every tackle. They tried harder to take it than the Vikings to keep it.


And the botched handoff was caused by the Saints, too, right? My point is.. the Vikings ballhandlers didn't do their job handling the rock. NO can punch, rip and yank at the thing all game long, it doesn't negate that the Vikings still have to hold on to the thing. This is why I put the blame soley on the Vikings ballhandlers. I credit NO for their relentlessly opportunistic defense, but bottom line if you have the ball, you don't lose it. Ever.


Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
Third, was he for real of was it an Illusion? I saw a lot of INTs that were dropped. San Fran dropped one right before that throw. Balt dropped one that would have stopped the game winning drive. Woodson had one in the endzone called back by a bad PI call in MN. Some passes were thrown up for grabs and the receiver came down with it. Typical triple coverage pop ups. I think it was not the system. He could easily have had double the total he ended up with. I think reality will slap them in the back of the neck this year.


I agree with Zero on this one.. You can say that for every single QB in the league (about the dropped INTs, etc), so to say that Favre coulda/woulda/shoulda is moot.

Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
Fouth. Choking hazard, Favres losing efforts in the playoffs, he has a rating under 70 for the last 12 years. Attesting to the choking Zero was referring to.


Like I said after that game.. It's ignorant to the season and to the history of the Vikings to say Favre choked that game for the Vikings instead of acknowledging that it was the VIKINGS that choked that game away. Every casual NFL fan that doesn't know their ass from their elbow when it comes to the history of the Vikings, thus they laughed that 'Favre choked in that game' completely ignoring the 5 1/2 - 6 1/2 other times the ball was dropped by a player in purple withOUT the number 4 on the jersey.

Don't get me wrong, Favre's history in the playoffs isn't all that great, and I am very much aware of this. But sadly enough for the rest of the NFL, even with said history he still gives the Vikings the best chance at a playoff run.
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Offline CDNRodgersfan  
#36 Posted : Sunday, August 1, 2010 5:40:34 PM(UTC)
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To me time of int plays a big role and that's why Montana will always be the greatest. The guy kept cutting down on his int's the more important the game and I'm to lazy to check it up but I do believe he's only thrown like 1 int in SB games
Offline Nonstopdrivel  
#37 Posted : Sunday, August 1, 2010 7:46:18 PM(UTC)
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Yes, though they would have not won that fourth Super Bowl had the defense not dropped an interception thrown directly into their hands.
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Offline Dexter_Sinister  
#38 Posted : Sunday, August 1, 2010 8:50:33 PM(UTC)
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Interception percentage perception was just a little alliteration. I know you compared him to the recognizable names, my point was, it was cherry picking and not counting every ones else that was above him. Spinning it to make him look better. That is why I said to take the spin off, he was flat out ranked 51st. He is right on the edge of the top 25%.

For the TO battle, MN played their game and NO played theirs. NO is known for creating TOs. You call them opportunists which is not accurate, they were larcenists. MN lost the TO battle because NO was better at playing their game than MN was at their own. Even if you split that hair, it is far from a fluke because NO always did that.

I did mention the botched hand off in an earlier post. I also mentioned the final Int as being a possible exception. But if you look at the penetration by the D-line, they may be responsible for AP altering his path because a defender shot through the hole he was heading for resulting in a forced fumble. I couldn't get a good look from the views shown so that is questionable, either way. But yes, I did mention that.

As per my response to Zero in the comment about dropped INTS, I was referring to Game Changers. Balt, SF and @GB could easily have been loses because of poor throws at a critical time. Throws that in years past may have been caught. In short, he did get lucky.

As far as Favre choking, He has a history of having low ratings in the playoff losses, as he did in NO. I would not call a 70 rating a clutch performance. His career average would have been enough to win that game. His average for the year would have been enough to win by a couple of scores. If he played as well as Rodgers did in our loss against AZ, he would have watched the final quarter from the bench because they would have had a 3 touchdown lead. A great player steps up at critical times and actually gets better regardless of how the rest of the team plays. Not worse. I am not saying he is responsible for the loss, but he is for playing poorly. Gutsy, but poorly.

Sure, best chance at a playoff run, he is a great QB. But the Vikings have lots of Playoff appearances, they got there the year before Favre signed. They want a Super Bowl win. He has shown an inconsistency that makes a 3 game run in the playoffs unlikely, if you are counting on him. The only time we made it was when it wasn't up to him to get us there.
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Offline Zero2Cool  
#39 Posted : Sunday, August 1, 2010 10:00:06 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
To me time of int plays a big role and that's why Montana will always be the greatest. The guy kept cutting down on his int's the more important the game and I'm to lazy to check it up but I do believe he's only thrown like 1 int in SB games


Joe Montana did not throw an interception during a Super Bowl.

The fourth Super Bowl Joe won, was by 45 points, no single interception would have swung that one.
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Offline Formo  
#40 Posted : Monday, August 2, 2010 1:54:15 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
Interception percentage perception was just a little alliteration. I know you compared him to the recognizable names, my point was, it was cherry picking and not counting every ones else that was above him. Spinning it to make him look better. That is why I said to take the spin off, he was flat out ranked 51st. He is right on the edge of the top 25%.


I was cherry picking the BEST QBS IN THE GAME. Not to make Favre look good. Alluding that I was trying to skew the stats is what I am defending. Was NOT my intention and I'd appreciate it if you stopped alluding to it in that manner, mmk?

Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
For the TO battle, MN played their game and NO played theirs. NO is known for creating TOs. You call them opportunists which is not accurate, they were larcenists. MN lost the TO battle because NO was better at playing their game than MN was at their own. Even if you split that hair, it is far from a fluke because NO always did that.


It was a fluke in my eyes because when was the last time ANY team put the rock on the ground more than 6 times in a game? And the Vikings did just that. NO averaged 2.4 turnovers by defense last regular season.. the Vikings average 1.1 turnovers by the offense last regular season. You are correct in that the Saints won that battle of the wills.. but it's still flukey. NO forced 4 turnovers 3 times last year.. no game did they force over 4 until that championship game.

Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
I did mention the botched hand off in an earlier post. I also mentioned the final Int as being a possible exception. But if you look at the penetration by the D-line, they may be responsible for AP altering his path because a defender shot through the hole he was heading for resulting in a forced fumble. I couldn't get a good look from the views shown so that is questionable, either way. But yes, I did mention that.


I missed that post. But you can't credit the Saints for causing that TO.. just for being opportunistic enough to land on the thing. No matter what the cause.. AP should NOT have dropped it.

Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
As per my response to Zero in the comment about dropped INTS, I was referring to Game Changers. Balt, SF and @GB could easily have been loses because of poor throws at a critical time. Throws that in years past may have been caught. In short, he did get lucky.


Lucky like every other QB that has had an INT or two dropped.. Like every other QB in the league.

Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
As far as Favre choking, He has a history of having low ratings in the playoff losses, as he did in NO. I would not call a 70 rating a clutch performance. His career average would have been enough to win that game. His average for the year would have been enough to win by a couple of scores. If he played as well as Rodgers did in our loss against AZ, he would have watched the final quarter from the bench because they would have had a 3 touchdown lead. A great player steps up at critical times and actually gets better regardless of how the rest of the team plays. Not worse. I am not saying he is responsible for the loss, but he is for playing poorly. Gutsy, but poorly.


Oh, he didn't have a good game that day, I agree. I don't think A-Rod would have had the lead you think he would have if he was QBing the Vikes because AP dropped the ball 3 times, not Favre. But we really can't discuss that too deeply because A-Rod doesn't QB the Vikes. Favre is a great player and anyone saying otherwise is foolish. The best? I don't think so. One of the greatest? Yes. I don't get how people only remember some QBs for the 10 poor passes they throw and not for the almost 40 good to great throws.

Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
Sure, best chance at a playoff run, he is a great QB. But the Vikings have lots of Playoff appearances, they got there the year before Favre signed. They want a Super Bowl win. He has shown an inconsistency that makes a 3 game run in the playoffs unlikely, if you are counting on him. The only time we made it was when it wasn't up to him to get us there.


So, who would you have suggested the Vikings go after instead of signing Favre last year? Not a single QB that the Vikes had a chance to sign would have brought to the table what Favre did.
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Offline Zero2Cool  
#41 Posted : Monday, August 2, 2010 2:14:35 AM(UTC)
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The Vikings didn't need a QB to win games for them. They need a QB who won't make mistakes, which is what Brett did better than any year of his career, except the playoffs.

If the Vikings could land someone who can make smart decisions with taking no foolish risks, they'd be scary in both the regular season and post season.

Brett seems to lose faith in his team in the post season and feels he needs to do it all himself, unfortunately us Packers fans know this all too well. :(
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Offline Dexter_Sinister  
#42 Posted : Tuesday, August 3, 2010 3:07:10 AM(UTC)
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Favre plays poorly in the playoffs about half of the time. Makes winning 3 straight really tough.

Consider the era that he playes in. Johnny U, Fran Tarkington, Bart Starr, Rodger Staubach, Dan Marino and Joe Montana were the best compared to their contemporaries. Favre is 14th in QB rating among active QBs behind the likes of Duante Culpepper and Jeff Garcia. Just a tenth of a point above McNabb. I don't see the 14th ranked QB from the 60s or 70s on the list of all time greats.

His unfortunate inability to take the team on his shoulders and cary them across the finish line instead of choking, keeps him out of Great category. Not because he doesn't win, but because he chokes when it was up to him. Favre falls way short with ratings in the 60s for playoff losses in the last 12 years. Starr's QB rating went up when he was in the playoffs, Favre's goes down.
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Offline zombieslayer  
#43 Posted : Tuesday, August 3, 2010 2:21:51 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
Favre plays poorly in the playoffs about half of the time. Makes winning 3 straight really tough.

Consider the era that he playes in. Johnny U, Fran Tarkington, Bart Starr, Rodger Staubach, Dan Marino and Joe Montana were the best compared to their contemporaries. Favre is 14th in QB rating among active QBs behind the likes of Duante Culpepper and Jeff Garcia. Just a tenth of a point above McNabb. I don't see the 14th ranked QB from the 60s or 70s on the list of all time greats.

His unfortunate inability to take the team on his shoulders and cary them across the finish line instead of choking, keeps him out of Great category. Not because he doesn't win, but because he chokes when it was up to him. Favre falls way short with ratings in the 60s for playoff losses in the last 12 years. Starr's QB rating went up when he was in the playoffs, Favre's goes down.


FYI - Favre's 2 SBs were quite a bit better than P Manning's 2 SBs. Check their Playoff records as well. Favre is 13-11. Manning is 9-9.
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Offline Dexter_Sinister  
#44 Posted : Wednesday, August 4, 2010 12:01:15 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
Favre plays poorly in the playoffs about half of the time. Makes winning 3 straight really tough.

Consider the era that he playes in. Johnny U, Fran Tarkington, Bart Starr, Rodger Staubach, Dan Marino and Joe Montana were the best compared to their contemporaries. Favre is 14th in QB rating among active QBs behind the likes of Duante Culpepper and Jeff Garcia. Just a tenth of a point above McNabb. I don't see the 14th ranked QB from the 60s or 70s on the list of all time greats.

His unfortunate inability to take the team on his shoulders and cary them across the finish line instead of choking, keeps him out of Great category. Not because he doesn't win, but because he chokes when it was up to him. Favre falls way short with ratings in the 60s for playoff losses in the last 12 years. Starr's QB rating went up when he was in the playoffs, Favre's goes down.


FYI - Favre's 2 SBs were quite a bit better than P Manning's 2 SBs. Check their Playoff records as well. Favre is 13-11. Manning is 9-9.


How is Favres playoff record in the last 12 years?

You say rating, then you say records. Put the stat on the other point. Both are 1-1 in the super bowl and Mannings ratings are better in his playoff losses for the last 5 years than Favres. Payton had games in the playoffs losses in the 90s and Favre had 60s. When they need Favre to step up, he didn't and when they need Manning, he did. It depends on your spin.

The point this is side tracking from is, Favre doesn't play well in the losses. Regardless of how Manning plays. Greats don't have bad games every time the season is on the line and it is win or go home.
I want to go out like my Grandpa did. Peacefully in his sleep.

Not screaming in terror like his passengers.
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