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Offline HoustonMatt  
#101 Posted : Sunday, October 19, 2008 11:20:17 PM(UTC)
HoustonMatt

Rank: 6th Round Draft Pick

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Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post


But there is a difference, football is a team sport not an individual performance. And I'm not saying ignoring stats but use ones that have some subjectivity and opinion in them and watch the tape. So basically just said I'm right other than me assuming which I'm not sure I'm wrong about doing that ether.


And good luck with the chick.


You're absolutely right and I think we're essentially in agreement outside of semantics. In baseball it's much easier to single out a player's contributions to the team than it is in football because football is more inter-connected. Really, how does one properly attribute a 5 yd run amongst the rb and o-line? It'll be tough and most definitely still involve some subjectivity, but the idea is to strip away the subjective to the furthest extent possible.

My original post wasn't so much about debating either one of you, as much as it was designed to get current football fans thinking about the sub-par statistics we are forced to use. Baseball is light years ahead in this regard. As Whiskey pointed out,, there are some sites attempting to improve stats (Football Outsiders is another), but we're still lacking.

As for the girl, turns out she was 19. I'm pushing 27 and so is my roommate. I have no clue what he was doing bringing a 19 year old chick over here. 21+ is my policy. Thanks for the best wishes though!
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Offline beast  
#102 Posted : Sunday, October 19, 2008 11:38:56 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
As for the girl, turns out she was 19. I'm pushing 27 and so is my roommate. I have no clue what he was doing bringing a 19 year old chick over here. 21+ is my policy. Thanks for the best wishes though!


:icon_smile: That's reminds me of a time I was 18 and my 19 old friend got me to be his "wing man" for this chick... I told him no at first because I thought she was 17 and naive about things. He was like no she got to be at least 18 and he though she was 19 or 20.... So I agreed and we went over and got to get to know her... turn out she just had her 15 birthday a week earlier... and we complete backed off as soon as we found that out... She didn't look 15 at all.
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Offline Zero2Cool  
#103 Posted : Sunday, October 19, 2008 11:46:03 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
You're an idiot, and I'm done trying to talk sense to a jackass.


This is uncalled for and unacceptable. Consider this your warning.
"I do not think there is any thrill that can go through the human heart like that felt by the inventor as he sees some creation of the brain unfolding to success... such emotions make a man forget food, sleep, friends, love, everything." - Nikola Tesla

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Offline porky88  
#104 Posted : Monday, October 20, 2008 12:58:36 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
For every Joe Gibbs' Redskins, Bill Walsh 49ers, and John Elway Broncos there is the Ravens, Bears or the Buccaneers.



Oh, fo shizzle.

But like I've said half a dozen times on this thread, super D teams win ONE SB while super O teams win DYNASTIES.

I'd rather have a DYNASTY than a single SB win.


70's Steelers
90's Cowboys
00's Patriots

All defenses.

Like I said Troy Aikman only threw for 20 touchdowns one time in his career. The rest of the way it was a dominate defense with a running game that got the job done.

70's Steelers notorious for their defense.

00's Patriots pretty good defense. Yeah Tom Brady was fantastic, but that defense shut down a Rams offense in the Super Bowl that was unbelievable. They also stopped an Eagles offense that was unbelievable.

You take the offense in the regular season and you can go 13-3 and reach the Super Bowl.

I'll take the defense and go 11-5 and beat you in the Super Bowl.

You know both ways work and the fact that you can make legit cases for 99 Rams or a 85 Bears just proves it's a team sport. You build a good team and you can win in a number of ways.


70s Steelers - Bradshaw, Webster, Stallworth, Swann, Harris
90s Cowboys - Aikman, Irvin, Smith, Johnston, and one of the best O-lines ever
00s Pats - Brady, Brown, Dillon, Vinatieri (best clutch kicker in his prime)

Those teams were no slouches on offense.

Take a moment and read that article I linked earlier. It has some interesting analysis of offensive and defensive standard deviations from expected performance in the playoffs historically.


Citing Lynn Swann. He's only one of the most overrated receivers to play the game. If you want crazy stats, look at his and I don't mean crazy in good.

Troy Brown and Corey Dillon really don't put that much fear in defenses. Although Dillon was rock solid for the one championship he was there for.

I'm of the opinion Dallas had one of the best teams ever so I would argue top to bottom you'll fine talent on their team.

Again every point made in this thread has something in common. It all proves this is a team sport.

I look at the dynasty teams and I see teams with efficient Hall of Fame QB's and excellent defenses. Even the 49ers. Top to bottom, they're all good and that's why they're a dynasty.
Offline zombieslayer  
#105 Posted : Monday, October 20, 2008 2:09:32 PM(UTC)
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Lynn Swann was incredible. He made catches other WRs dreamed of catching.

Those teams you cited were complete teams. They were balanced. Solid O, solid D.

One thing I noticed in this thread is no one successfully countered WhiskeySam's stat of 11-6.
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Offline porky88  
#106 Posted : Monday, October 20, 2008 2:19:33 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
Lynn Swann was incredible. He made catches other WRs dreamed of catching.

Those teams you cited were complete teams. They were balanced. Solid O, solid D.

One thing I noticed in this thread is no one successfully countered WhiskeySam's stat of 11-6.


I actually pointed out two of those teams (Giants and Colts) and gave examples of how their defense actually won games for them in the post season or had a bigger impact in the post season than their offense did.

Ironically it was mentioned No. 1 Rams O vs. No. 1 Bucs D in the NFC Title game in 99 and how the O beat the D.

Yeah by a score of 11-6. High powered offense really did a lot in that game.

As far as Swann

http://www.pro-football-...m/players/S/SwanLy00.htm

He's in the Hall of Fame for the way he caught the ball. Not that he actually did that all the time.

5,500 receiving yards and 51 touchdowns in 9 years.
Offline zombieslayer  
#107 Posted : Monday, October 20, 2008 2:29:57 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post


I actually pointed out two of those teams (Giants and Colts) and gave examples of how their defense actually won games for them in the post season or had a bigger impact in the post season than their offense did.

Ironically it was mentioned No. 1 Rams O vs. No. 1 Bucs D in the NFC Title game in 99 and how the O beat the D.

Yeah by a score of 11-6. High powered offense really did a lot in that game.

As far as Swann

http://www.pro-football-...m/players/S/SwanLy00.htm

He's in the Hall of Fame for the way he caught the ball. Not that he actually did that all the time.

5,500 receiving yards and 51 touchdowns in 9 years.


In defense of Swann, he played in a time when WRs weren't prima donnas and took hits all the time. Now, you can't even look at a WR wrong without drawing a flag. The rules have changed. So 5500 yards and 51 TDs in 9 years was a lot for that time period.

The 11-6 stat was for 11 SB winning teams having a higher ranked O over 6 teams having a higher ranked D.

I think in the end, BALANCE wins. I'm just saying if you absolutely had to choose a #1 O or a #1 D or else the bad guys will shoot your dog, I'd choose a #1 O.

EDIT: By the way, yeah, that is ironic about '99. But s*** happens I guess.
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Offline obi1  
#108 Posted : Monday, October 20, 2008 2:58:07 PM(UTC)
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OK,

HOw about this?

IF you could have a top 5 Offense or Top 5 Defense but your team was going to be mediocre(10~20) on the other side of the ball... Which would you rather have, Based on the stats that was provided by Zombieslayer???
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Offline WhiskeySam  
#109 Posted : Monday, October 20, 2008 3:02:09 PM(UTC)
WhiskeySam

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Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
Lynn Swann was incredible. He made catches other WRs dreamed of catching.

Those teams you cited were complete teams. They were balanced. Solid O, solid D.

One thing I noticed in this thread is no one successfully countered WhiskeySam's stat of 11-6.


I actually pointed out two of those teams (Giants and Colts) and gave examples of how their defense actually won games for them in the post season or had a bigger impact in the post season than their offense did.

Ironically it was mentioned No. 1 Rams O vs. No. 1 Bucs D in the NFC Title game in 99 and how the O beat the D.

Yeah by a score of 11-6. High powered offense really did a lot in that game.

As far as Swann

http://www.pro-football-...m/players/S/SwanLy00.htm

He's in the Hall of Fame for the way he caught the ball. Not that he actually did that all the time.

5,500 receiving yards and 51 touchdowns in 9 years.


I think Zombie gave a nice summation of Swann. RE: the Giants, I'll mention that it was the defense AND the mature play of Eli Manning that won the title. After all, Eli rallied the Giants from 4th quarter deficits twice in the Super Bowl, the second after his defense wasn't able to hold the Pats.
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Offline WhiskeySam  
#110 Posted : Monday, October 20, 2008 3:05:00 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
OK,

HOw about this?

IF you could have a top 5 Offense or Top 5 Defense but your team was going to be mediocre(10~20) on the other side of the ball... Which would you rather have, Based on the stats that was provided by Zombieslayer???


I'd still take the O because the analysis on another site showed that statiscally top offenses are much greater than the average offense than top defenses are greater than average defenses. Essentially, that says it's easier for a defense to be better than average than for an offense to be better than average. Of course, I might be biased towards the Big O because I'm still an Oscar Robertson fan.
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Offline Pack93z  
#111 Posted : Monday, October 20, 2008 3:11:20 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
OK,

HOw about this?

IF you could have a top 5 Offense or Top 5 Defense but your team was going to be mediocre(10~20) on the other side of the ball... Which would you rather have, Based on the stats that was provided by Zombieslayer???


Defense again.. without question.

A dominate defense will help your offense more than the other way around. To control a game you have to have a defense that can get itself off the field. If your defense blows, your offense with have the rhythm of the game dictated to it.. Every possess is vital..

With a defense, you will have two important things going for you..

1) More cracks at the offensive side of the ball.. which is normally a good thing unless you are turnover happy.

2) You can almost always slow the progression of the game down.. keeping whatever pathetic form of an offense in the game.

To be a successful football team you want to control the pace and speed of the game.. I believe it easier to due that with a jarring defense than a highlight reel of an offense.. look no further than the Jekyll and Hyde teams of the Bengals of this decade.. lots of offense.. but never went anywhere.

I will build defense before offense every single time, if I can't do both concurrently.
I think when there's enough will and aggression, there's no shortage of talent either.

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Offline obi1  
#112 Posted : Monday, October 20, 2008 3:29:42 PM(UTC)
obi1

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Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
OK,

HOw about this?

IF you could have a top 5 Offense or Top 5 Defense but your team was going to be mediocre(10~20) on the other side of the ball... Which would you rather have, Based on the stats that was provided by Zombieslayer???


I'd still take the O because the analysis on another site showed that statiscally top offenses are much greater than the average offense than top defenses are greater than average defenses. Essentially, that says it's easier for a defense to be better than average than for an offense to be better than average. Of course, I might be biased towards the Big O because I'm still an Oscar Robertson fan.


YEP, I gave up basketball after Big O, Bobby D, Lew Alcindor(Abdul-Jabbar), finished with the Bucks...

Though I loved watching the Bucks play, Basketball was NOT my sport...
However, I got to meet Jon McGlocklin on a few occasions... NICE Guy!


I think the Packer's case, their offense seems to be clicking now. But, as it showed on sunday, their defense needs to play well for them to be the kind of team that dominated the opposition kind of like last year...

And IF you look at the stats that Zombie put up, there are teams that won the SB with a Mediocre (10th~20th) offense but until the last 2 years, NONE that did it with a Mediocre defense.
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Offline zombieslayer  
#113 Posted : Monday, October 20, 2008 5:39:55 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post


Defense again.. without question.

A dominate defense will help your offense more than the other way around. To control a game you have to have a defense that can get itself off the field. If your defense blows, your offense with have the rhythm of the game dictated to it.. Every possess is vital..

With a defense, you will have two important things going for you..

1) More cracks at the offensive side of the ball.. which is normally a good thing unless you are turnover happy.

2) You can almost always slow the progression of the game down.. keeping whatever pathetic form of an offense in the game.

To be a successful football team you want to control the pace and speed of the game.. I believe it easier to due that with a jarring defense than a highlight reel of an offense.. look no further than the Jekyll and Hyde teams of the Bengals of this decade.. lots of offense.. but never went anywhere.

I will build defense before offense every single time, if I can't do both concurrently.


Pack - This win against the Colts showed that an O can suck the life out of an opponent. Happened to us in '97. Remember how demoralized we looked because we couldn't tackle that Bronco RB? Their little OL was pushing our big DL around all day, and by the end of the game, our D looked dead.

Quote:
The Packers' first five drives went 13, 8, 11, 10 and 12 plays, and Green Bay had a season-best 19 first downs in the first half.


This is a HUGE reason why we beat the Colts. Look at them in the 2nd half. They looked desperate. Our D was loving their acts of desperation, especially Collins and Rouse.
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Offline packersfan101101  
#114 Posted : Sunday, November 2, 2008 11:56:59 PM(UTC)
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Rank: Fresh Cheesehead

Joined: 9/14/2008(UTC)


i would attempt to create a solid running game and be in the top 5 offenses because of that.. running the ball is underrated
brandon jackson is amazing
Offline Zero2Cool  
#115 Posted : Friday, October 19, 2012 5:39:03 PM(UTC)
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I'd aim for top five in points allowed an offensive 60/40 pass/run ratio and stomp the league.
"I do not think there is any thrill that can go through the human heart like that felt by the inventor as he sees some creation of the brain unfolding to success... such emotions make a man forget food, sleep, friends, love, everything." - Nikola Tesla

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thanks Post received 1 applause.
nerdmann on 10/19/2012(UTC)
Offline PackerTraxx  
#116 Posted : Saturday, October 20, 2012 1:06:11 PM(UTC)
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I would take the top 5 offense. I think the defense can be built quicker.
Why is Jerry Kramer not in the Hall of Fame?
Offline Akexpat  
#117 Posted : Sunday, October 21, 2012 8:14:39 AM(UTC)
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not mine but:
“There is no room for second place. There is only one place in my game and that is first place. I have finished second twice in my time at Green Bay and I never want to finish second again.”

Beat them down with smash mouth defense, and then humiliate them with high flying offense.
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