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Offline Zero2Cool  
#16 Posted : Sunday, March 13, 2011 7:22:08 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
What are you calling an Elite running back?


He named a whole bunch of them. If you don't like the term "elite RBs," you can substitute another term of your choice, like "top ranking RBs" or whatever.


I thought he named fantasy Running Backs, not what was making them an Elite RB.


The only one that I feel comes close to being elite would be Adrian Peterson. Because year in year out he's getting his yards and scores.

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Offline zombieslayer  
#17 Posted : Sunday, March 13, 2011 7:23:13 PM(UTC)
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Dexter - I'm too young. I've never seen Jim Brown other than videos of him. When I say "best" I always make a point that it's 1976 on.

Yes, I think Smith is overrated but you do have to admit, the guy has a nose for the end zone. That's why I like him. He gets TDs by any means necessary. Thus I put him with LT. How would he be behind an average OL? Well, debatable.
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Offline macbob  
#18 Posted : Sunday, March 13, 2011 7:26:01 PM(UTC)
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Zombie-

Irrelevant. To borrow a line: You keep using that word. I do not think it means, what you think it means.

The stats you are presenting support an argument that an elite QB is more important than an elite RB to winning. I dont think anyone here disagrees with that statement/argument.

The problem comes when you leap from that argument to an elite RB (or the running game in general) is irrelevant.

elite QB > elite RB

and

elite RB = 0

are not the same thing.

Paul Hornung & Jim Taylor were not irrelevant.

More recently, Terrell Davis wasnt irrelevantJohn Elway and the Broncos lost 3 SBs before they gained a running game. 2 of those 3 years they had an elite defense (ranked first and seventh in scoring) and their passing game/D wasnt enough, by themselves, to win the SB.

Do I think we need to go out and trade/spend to acquire AP? No. I think our RBs (Grant/Starks) will provide us enough of a running game to keep the defenses honest.

Do I think Packers should become primarily a running team? No. A running game will get you about 1500-2000 yards AT MOST a year, where a passing game will get you in the realm of 4000 yds.

What I would like to see is us drop the ZBS and to draft a couple of OL (OT & LG being the biggest needs). Get some help for both our running and passing games (I don't think it's either or--I think an improved OL can improve both). Can we clone Sitton & Bulaga???
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Offline macbob  
#19 Posted : Sunday, March 13, 2011 7:31:00 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
I think we can all agree that O.J. Simpson qualified as an "elite running back." Out of curiosity, I looked up the season records for the teams on which he played. The results were eye opening.

Code:
BUFFALO BILLS
-------------

Season Record Yrds YScm
1969 4-10-0 697 1040
1970 3-10-1 488 647
1971 1-13-0 742 904
1972 4-09-1 1251* 1449
1973 9-05-0 2003* 2073*
1974 9-05-0 1125 1314
1975 8-06-0 1817* 2243*
1976 2-12-0 1503* 1762*
1977 3-11-0 557 695

SAN FRANCISCO 49ERS
-------------------
Season Record Yrds YScm
1978 2-14-0 593 765
1979 2-14-1 460 506

* Denotes lead league.


Yeah, but you can't just take that straight up. For example, in 1973 when the Bills were 9-5 OJ rushed for over 2000 yards but their passing game was putrescent--997 yards for the entire year, last in the league. 71 passing yards/game. By himself, OJ was more than 2/3rds of the Bills total offense.
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Offline zombieslayer  
#20 Posted : Sunday, March 13, 2011 7:34:27 PM(UTC)
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The game changed since the 60s. Passing was harder back then as you can smack the receivers all the way down the field up until they were about to catch a ball. Also, you can bury a QB into the turf and not worry about a 15-yard penalty.

The 2 year SB span with the Broncos, see what RP said in another thread. They cheated, plain and simple. I was referring to the salary cap and they broke the rules.
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Offline jdlax  
#21 Posted : Sunday, March 13, 2011 8:14:58 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
There has never before been, and never in the future will be, an elite running back besides Barry James Sanders.

Better aks someone, bitch.


There was no correlation between having Barry Sanders, and winning, so no, he is also not an elite running back.


I was just looking to have a little fun with Z2C .
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Offline Greg C.  
#22 Posted : Sunday, March 13, 2011 10:07:00 PM(UTC)
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So we have to go all the way back to Terrell Davis 12 years ago to find an elite RB who won a Super Bowl. When you think of it that way, Zombie's argument is looking even better.
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Offline macbob  
#23 Posted : Sunday, March 13, 2011 10:18:49 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
So we have to go all the way back to Terrell Davis 12 years ago to find an elite RB who won a Super Bowl. When you think of it that way, Zombie's argument is looking even better.


If a Elway & the Broncos lose 3 before they get one, then win 2 after they get one, then he was irrelevant???

I am seriously having difficulty following the logic.
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Offline zombieslayer  
#24 Posted : Sunday, March 13, 2011 10:25:29 PM(UTC)
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As per RP, Broncos have to cheat to win the Super Bowl. Which fits into my argument that elite RBs are a waste of money.

My point is you have a salary cap (which the Broncos cheated to get around. Note that they lost draft picks because they were caught cheating, a la Belichick's spygate). You have limited funds. Spending on an elite RB is a waste of money because it doesn't matter who is back there.

I think my argument is looking better and better. Now I need to find a university that will give me a million dollars to research this and write a paper on it. Wade?
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Offline Zero2Cool  
#25 Posted : Sunday, March 13, 2011 10:31:51 PM(UTC)
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I'm not following how the broncos cheated helped them win any super bowl. they cheated on Davis and elways contract.

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Offline macbob  
#26 Posted : Sunday, March 13, 2011 11:07:19 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
As per RP, Broncos have to cheat to win the Super Bowl. Which fits into my argument that elite RBs are a waste of money.

My point is you have a salary cap (which the Broncos cheated to get around. Note that they lost draft picks because they were caught cheating, a la Belichick's spygate). You have limited funds. Spending on an elite RB is a waste of money because it doesn't matter who is back there.

I think my argument is looking better and better. Now I need to find a university that will give me a million dollars to research this and write a paper on it. Wade?


Whether legally or illegally acquired, they couldn't win one until they got the running game. I don't see the relevancy of the salary cap argument.

Matter of fact, I don't see the relevancy of the entire thread.

Zombie, it's obvious from your posts that you're smart enough to understand that QB > RB does not mean RB = 0, yet you persist in making those arguments for whatever reason.

In any event, I realize those statements don't follow, and borrowing from the title, this thread's a waste of time.
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Offline Greg C.  
#27 Posted : Sunday, March 13, 2011 11:51:08 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
So we have to go all the way back to Terrell Davis 12 years ago to find an elite RB who won a Super Bowl. When you think of it that way, Zombie's argument is looking even better.


If a Elway & the Broncos lose 3 before they get one, then win 2 after they get one, then he was irrelevant???

I am seriously having difficulty following the logic.


No, I didn't mean to suggest that Davis was irrelevant. I see that you really don't like the word "irrelevant" in Zombie's original post. I was just agreeing with Zombie's point that in the NFL these days there's no correlation between having a big-time RB and being a successful team. Davis was very important to those Broncos teams, but twelve years is a long time in NFL terms. The league has become more pass-oriented since then.
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Offline zombieslayer  
#28 Posted : Monday, March 14, 2011 2:22:53 AM(UTC)
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Yeah, you get what I'm saying Greg. I'm not saying running is irrelevant and RBs = 0. I'm saying there's no correlation between an elite RB and success. Big difference.

I even went as far as saying that elite RBs are a waste of money because with a salary cap, you can spend your money elsewhere that's more important.

You still need to run the ball, but it doesn't matter who's back there. The difference between the best RB in the NFL and a mediocre back is not that significant when it comes to the success of your football team.

That's my point.

I do think that when a RB asks for more money, you let him go.

Let me give real life examples. If you have the choice between Reggie White, Charles Woodson, Clay Matthews 3, and Barry Sanders, all in their prime, Sanders falls on the bottom of the list. An elite defender > an elite RB. Save your money. Spend it on D.

I'd rather have Dmitri Nance with the $450k we pay him than Barry Sanders who will probably make > $10 million in today's market.

Zero - I'm not ignoring you. Have that discussion with RP. He knows it 10 times better than I do.
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Offline macbob  
#29 Posted : Monday, March 14, 2011 2:46:55 AM(UTC)
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zombieslayer wrote:
I'm not saying running is irrelevant


Sorry, I must have misread your first post in this thread, where you said:

zombieslayer wrote:
rushing success is irrelevant
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Offline Zero2Cool  
#30 Posted : Monday, March 14, 2011 2:58:06 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
I'd rather have Dmitri Nance with the $450k we pay him than Barry Sanders who will probably make > $10 million in today's market.

Zero - I'm not ignoring you. Have that discussion with RP. He knows it 10 times better than I do.


First part, moron, sorry my bias trumps my tact on that one. I can count several ways Barry Sanders helps far more than Nance could dream of, even at 7 to 10 million a year.


Broncos, RP wouldn't know anything about it, which was proven by his comments on the subject already. I did some reading and they deferred $29 million dollars of payments to John Elway and Terrell Davis.

From the comments from the Packers on that Super Bowl, they weren't going to win. Two of the DL weren't giving it their all and the Packers weren't adjusting to Steve Atwaters blitzing well enough. Not to mention the last play of the Packers offense was a play they've never practiced (or ran) before.

Bronco's were the better team, regardless of what the salaries were for Elway and Davis. Hell, Davis had migraine issues and still ran over the Packers. Saying the Broncos cheated to win against the Packers or Falcons is just being a plain sore loser.

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