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Offline Zero2Cool  
#16 Posted : Friday, October 14, 2011 11:59:09 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Formo Go to Quoted Post
I agree with you in that it doesn't make sense to draft players if you can't scout college players. My point was the Vikings are far from the worst team in the NFL when it comes to drafting. The number of starters currently on the squad says as such.


My point is you absolutely need to stop implying what I am saying. The Vikings are not the worst at anything in my opinion.

I wasn't saying you build by the draft. I am saying you do NOT make big ass trades UNLESS you are the brink of being a legit contender.

Who have the Steelers or Patriots made big trades to ACQUIRE? I think Corey Dillon was a 1st rounder? They just don't do it.

They both have staffs that can COACH PLAYERS UP. They get budget free agents, undrafted rookies and draft well. THAT IS HOW YOU BUILD A WINNER. I never said you must ONLY draft like your research indicates.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think there is a pseudo blueprint to build teams. Actually I'll throw this in a new thread. I don't want to run this topic down anymore than I have.
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Offline Zero2Cool  
#17 Posted : Friday, October 14, 2011 12:12:32 PM(UTC)
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Okay, wow moving posts is a biotch. This is my thinking of how to build a successful NFL team.

Owner - priority one should be winning and putting a winning product on the field

General Manager - cares not about fans opinions only about acquiring the best talent. must not be afraid to make a big move to put team over the top.

Head Coach - teacher first, coach second.
Offensive Coordinator - teacher first, coach second.
Defensive Coordinator - teacher first, coach second.
Special Teams - not named Shawn Slocum


Solid scouting staff for college talent, keep logs on files until the player hits 32'ish.
Only overspend in free agency/trade if it is for a player whom will put your team "over the top"
Get rid of players a year EARLY rather than a year LATE


If you remove economics from decisions such as hiring a coach because he has a big name, or a player cuz of their name, etc ... I think this is the foundation most teams TRY to emulate, but fail.


Of course this is just my own BRIEF opinion.


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Offline Formo  
#18 Posted : Friday, October 14, 2011 12:41:25 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool Go to Quoted Post
My point is you absolutely need to stop implying what I am saying. The Vikings are not the worst at anything in my opinion.


I'm only replying in a way because of the implications of your posts. And yes, that's exactly what I'm perceiving your posts to imply. I'll take ownership of that.. but only because of your history of implying the Vikings are the debul.

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool Go to Quoted Post
I wasn't saying you build by the draft. I am saying you do NOT make big ass trades UNLESS you are the brink of being a legit contender.

Who have the Steelers or Patriots made big trades to ACQUIRE? I think Corey Dillon was a 1st rounder? They just don't do it.

They both have staffs that can COACH PLAYERS UP. They get budget free agents, undrafted rookies and draft well. THAT IS HOW YOU BUILD A WINNER. I never said you must ONLY draft like your research indicates.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think there is a pseudo blueprint to build teams. Actually I'll throw this in a new thread. I don't want to run this topic down anymore than I have.


My research doesn't indicate much. You were ribbing me about how the Vikings can't draft outside of the obvious 2 recent RotYs they have. All I was showing you was that, yes, in fact that Vikings CAN draft, and have as many own-drafted players on their roster as the average NFL team.

And as far as building a successful NFL team, there's going to be a blueprint on how to build the skeleton of the team, but as far as the rest goes, is very fluid.
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Offline DakotaT  
#19 Posted : Friday, October 14, 2011 12:45:26 PM(UTC)
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How to build an NFL winner and we're using the Vikings as a model? I know some of you miss Nick the dumbass, but bringing VR back is not worth using the worst case scenario oxymoron possible.

Building a winner starts with the GM putting in place the right guy at Quarterback. That is step 1 and the Vikings have never learned that. It is incredible the amount of wasted talent that has gone through that franchise because they didn't have the great player at the number 1 position.

Packer fans should consider themselves the luckiest fvckers on the planet.
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macbob on 10/14/2011(UTC)
Offline Zero2Cool  
#20 Posted : Friday, October 14, 2011 12:51:18 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DakotaT Go to Quoted Post
How to build an NFL winner and we're using the Vikings as a model?


Who the f*ck is using the Vikings as an example on HOW TO build a winner? In my post briefly explaining a top level core structure I did not mention the Vikings.
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Offline DakotaT  
#21 Posted : Friday, October 14, 2011 12:55:58 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool Go to Quoted Post
Who the f*ck is using the Vikings as an example on HOW TO build a winner? In my post briefly explaining a top level core structure I did not mention the Vikings.



Page 1.
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Offline Zero2Cool  
#22 Posted : Friday, October 14, 2011 1:06:19 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DakotaT Go to Quoted Post
Page 1.

Wow, that is helpful. Good work! You really proved your point there. Holy tooters do I see all of those posts saying the Vikings are an example on how to build a winner!! I did not see anyone say what the Vikings SHOULD do to build a winner. No sir, that was not said at all!

You are super observant!


Can you tell I'm getting tired of this ignorant bullsh*t??
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Offline Formo  
#23 Posted : Friday, October 14, 2011 2:18:19 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DakotaT Go to Quoted Post

Building a winner starts with the GM putting in place the right guy at Quarterback. That is step 1 and the Vikings have never learned that. It is incredible the amount of wasted talent that has gone through that franchise because they didn't have the great player at the number 1 position.

Packer fans should consider themselves the luckiest fvckers on the planet.


I agree with both paragraphs.

I've been ok with the Chilly regime because he helped bring a lot of talent to the franchise, most of whom Vikings fan still enjoy. But one of his mistakes was NOT getting the QB spot taken care of ASAP. T-Jack could be a good enough excuse except for the fact that he was drafted in the worst possible way and Chilly stuck with him far too long. Most of us Viking fans are hoping that Ponder will be a solid career QB for us.
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Offline zombieslayer  
#24 Posted : Friday, October 14, 2011 2:57:52 PM(UTC)
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Vikings aren't such a bad model. Their year was 2009. They had the 2nd best team in the NFL. The Saints were the best team by a field goal in OT. And Formo agrees with me on this, but I think had Henderson not been injured, they beat the Saints in that game. Both the Saints and the Vikings were better than the Colts that year.

Now the problem with that model is obvious. They didn't have the depth that we did. Injuries to their DBs and OL killed them and their DL which was once a wall got old.

DakotaT is right - the first piece should always be the QB and you build a team around that first piece.

Ted Thompson is fully aware that Aaron Rodgers is his bread and butter. Check his drafts. Last two seasons, our first round picks have been OTs to protect our investment. Every season we draft a WR to give him weapons.

I can tell you right now what our 2012 draft will look like. In the first two rounds, an OL will be drafted. We'll also pick up yet another WR. In the 4th through 7th rounds, we'll take another OL. Everything else will be depth unless Ted Thompson can find a steal.
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Offline macbob  
#25 Posted : Friday, October 14, 2011 3:18:05 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool Go to Quoted Post
Okay, wow moving posts is a biotch. This is my thinking of how to build a successful NFL team.

Owner - priority one should be winning and putting a winning product on the field

General Manager - cares not about fans opinions only about acquiring the best talent. must not be afraid to make a big move to put team over the top.

Head Coach - teacher first, coach second.
Offensive Coordinator - teacher first, coach second.
Defensive Coordinator - teacher first, coach second.
Special Teams - not named Shawn Slocum


Solid scouting staff for college talent, keep logs on files until the player hits 32'ish.
Only overspend in free agency/trade if it is for a player whom will put your team "over the top"
Get rid of players a year EARLY rather than a year LATE


If you remove economics from decisions such as hiring a coach because he has a big name, or a player cuz of their name, etc ... I think this is the foundation most teams TRY to emulate, but fail.


Of course this is just my own BRIEF opinion.





Z2C-I'd add a few more (lessons learned from the Mike Sherman era):

1) Have a separate GM & HC. GM duties can distract from HC duties during regular season. Best to split those two than combine them into one.

2) Trade down in the draft more than you trade up in the draft. You can get screwed up by continually trading up in the draft and ending with fewer draft picks as a result--you're OK as long as you hit those picks (BJ Sanders) AND you don't have injuries, because you lose the depth behind your starters when you're doing that. Only trade up after you've stocked the team with sufficient depth at most/all positions (such as trading up to get CM3).

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Offline Methodikal  
#26 Posted : Friday, October 14, 2011 4:02:21 PM(UTC)
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Do the opposite of the Vikings = winner.
Something funny.
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Offline Rockmolder  
#27 Posted : Sunday, October 16, 2011 7:04:53 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Methodikal Go to Quoted Post
Do the opposite of the Vikings = winner.


That'd actually make you the Buccaneers or Bengals. Suck of a the greater portion of your history, have an amazing season or 4 and win/nearly win a SB and then slide back into mediocrity.

That might actually be easier than being a Vikes fan, since those purple bastards get your hope up every year only to fall flat on their face.

That said, trading AP and Jared Allen might be a somewhat ok idea from a performance if your truly believe that you're completely rebuilding. If you believe that you're not going to win in the next five years, you might as well fetch as much for those players now that you still can and get building through the draft.

That said, there's one huge point that everyone seems to be overlooking here...

Every NFL team is run with one thing in mind. Profit. Players like Peterson and Allen are why, next to the real fans who stick to their team no matter what, the Vikings are still selling tickets, jerseys etc. It'd be very unwise to just trade away your moneycows at this point.

Maybe they would be better off in 3 years if they traded both of them... Or maybe they'll be stuck with a team full of no-name players. It's a pretty big gamble.
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Offline Zero2Cool  
#28 Posted : Sunday, October 16, 2011 7:38:36 AM(UTC)
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Trading those two only works if you are able to draft talent. If you're not able to, you should be fired anyway.
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Offline Zero2Cool  
#29 Posted : Monday, October 17, 2011 9:09:20 AM(UTC)
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Brandon Lloyd was traded to the St. Louis Rams. Kind off seeing a team get rid of one of its best players. Although, it's a good move for both Brandon Lloyd and the Broncos. He was not going to resign with Denver, especially with Tim Tebow at QB. Brandon is a good deep threat WR and Tebow does not have the arm strength to get it deep.
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Offline DoddPower  
#30 Posted : Monday, October 17, 2011 9:49:55 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Rockmolder Go to Quoted Post
That'd actually make you the Buccaneers or Bengals. Suck of a the greater portion of your history, have an amazing season or 4 and win/nearly win a SB and then slide back into mediocrity.

That might actually be easier than being a Vikes fan, since those purple bastards get your hope up every year only to fall flat on their face.

That said, trading AP and Jared Allen might be a somewhat ok idea from a performance if your truly believe that you're completely rebuilding. If you believe that you're not going to win in the next five years, you might as well fetch as much for those players now that you still can and get building through the draft.

That said, there's one huge point that everyone seems to be overlooking here...

Every NFL team is run with one thing in mind. Profit. Players like Peterson and Allen are why, next to the real fans who stick to their team no matter what, the Vikings are still selling tickets, jerseys etc. It'd be very unwise to just trade away your moneycows at this point.

Maybe they would be better off in 3 years if they traded both of them... Or maybe they'll be stuck with a team full of no-name players. It's a pretty big gamble.


I understand your point, but I would have to imagine they would get some big names in the draft, especially with several 1sts. Fans catch on to big time rookies quickly. Tebow was a leading Jersey selling not too long ago, although to be fair not many college players have careers like him. But still, hopefully my point came across.

With that being said, I could see trading JA, but not AP. It just seems too unlikely, unless they can somehow acquire Luck.
 
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