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Offline Wade  
#11 Posted : Tuesday, April 17, 2012 2:49:08 PM(UTC)
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I feel sad for Jeremy and other Viking fans. And for those bars,etc. that might have to close/lay off staff if the Vikes move. And it won't be the same making jokes about a team in California who happens to wear purple.

But if I were a citizen of Minnesota, I'd be applauding. There are lots of ways of investing 400-500 million dollars of public money. Most of which are better investments for the overall "economy" than building a professional sport stadium.

IMO.

Offline wpr  
#12 Posted : Tuesday, April 17, 2012 3:14:28 PM(UTC)
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Wade said: Go to Quoted Post
I feel sad for Jeremy and other Viking fans. And for those bars,etc. that might have to close/lay off staff if the Vikes move. And it won't be the same making jokes about a team in California who happens to wear purple.

But if I were a citizen of Minnesota, I'd be applauding. There are lots of ways of investing 400-500 million dollars of public money. Most of which are better investments for the overall "economy" than building a professional sport stadium.

IMO.



If the Vikings follow the Lakers and leave Minn and move to LA they will be in the NFC West within 5 years. Ironically the Rams will take their place in the "Norris" Division.

I have long been an advocate of not building these new monuments for the sports franchises on the backs of the taxpayers. And if they have to build them then make them multifunctional. It is ludicrous to build a football only facility. 8 regular season games, 2 preseason and the fortunate few teams get a couple of playoff games to boot. That is insane.

I admire the Jets and Giants sharing a facility. I wish other cities went back to baseball and football in the same stadium. And tearing a facility down after it is only 25-30 even 40 years old is criminal.
Offline Zero2Cool  
#13 Posted : Tuesday, April 17, 2012 3:42:41 PM(UTC)
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wpr said: Go to Quoted Post
I admire the Jets and Giants sharing a facility. I wish other cities went back to baseball and football in the same stadium. And tearing a facility down after it is only 25-30 even 40 years old is criminal.


Stupidest thing ever was having Baseball and Football on the same field. What NFL player wants to run on that unsafe terrain?

I like the idea of using the stadium for multiple events. I think it's kind of crazy to let the stadium be used what a max of 10 times a year? Throw concerts or something in there too!!
Offline wpr  
#14 Posted : Tuesday, April 17, 2012 7:14:06 PM(UTC)
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Zero2Cool said: Go to Quoted Post
Stupidest thing ever was having Baseball and Football on the same field. What NFL player wants to run on that unsafe terrain?

I like the idea of using the stadium for multiple events. I think it's kind of crazy to let the stadium be used what a max of 10 times a year? Throw concerts or something in there too!!


Yeah concerts. Even in NY that might get you 5- more events a year. How about XC racing and tractor pulls? [duh]
If the grounds crew does a good job they will be safe from field related injuries. I have seen some pretty shabby fields after a concert. Atlanta's Fulton County Stadium back in the 70' and 80's was notorious for poor field conditions after a concert. To name just one.
Offline Formo  
#15 Posted : Tuesday, April 17, 2012 7:32:35 PM(UTC)
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Wade said: Go to Quoted Post
I feel sad for Jeremy and other Viking fans. And for those bars,etc. that might have to close/lay off staff if the Vikes move. And it won't be the same making jokes about a team in California who happens to wear purple.

But if I were a citizen of Minnesota, I'd be applauding. There are lots of ways of investing 400-500 million dollars of public money. Most of which are better investments for the overall "economy" than building a professional sport stadium.

IMO.



I know you are our local anarchist, but the 'public money' you and others keep trumpeting/whining about is money that A) doesn't come from any new taxes, B) doesn't come from any general coffers, and C) is hardly considered public. The only real 'tax' that would be paid for the stadium would be a MPLS tax that would be extended (the tax that pays for the convention center).

That, and the stadium wouldn't even be owned or operated by the Vikings but the state appointed sports commission committee. The state would generate money from ALL uses of the stadium with the only exception of NFL football related events. That bill was about as 'fair' as you could get because the state would have most definitely gotten it's money back from it's investment (and surely you know what that is).
Offline Zero2Cool  
#16 Posted : Wednesday, April 18, 2012 5:13:26 AM(UTC)
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wpr said: Go to Quoted Post
Yeah concerts. Even in NY that might get you 5- more events a year. How about XC racing and tractor pulls? [duh]
If the grounds crew does a good job they will be safe from field related injuries. I have seen some pretty shabby fields after a concert. Atlanta's Fulton County Stadium back in the 70' and 80's was notorious for poor field conditions after a concert. To name just one.


Concerts wasn't the only option, just a mere suggestion. I've heard of some teams ripping up their field and putting a new one done over a BYE week, so I don't see how a concert trampling a field merits concern. Simply have events held from February through July only. The rest of the months are reserved for the NFL team.

The Packers did great with having the Packers Hall of Fame and the Atrium, why not do something like that too? Make it a year around attraction?

Combining Baseball and Football on the same field is just crap for the football players in my opinion. The Packers had something similar when playing in County Stadium (or whatever it was called) the old Brewers home. They complained about the uneven surface all the time.
Offline Wade  
#17 Posted : Wednesday, April 18, 2012 5:13:34 AM(UTC)
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Formo said: Go to Quoted Post
I know you are our local anarchist, but the 'public money' you and others keep trumpeting/whining about is money that A) doesn't come from any new taxes, B) doesn't come from any general coffers, and C) is hardly considered public. The only real 'tax' that would be paid for the stadium would be a MPLS tax that would be extended (the tax that pays for the convention center).

That, and the stadium wouldn't even be owned or operated by the Vikings but the state appointed sports commission committee. The state would generate money from ALL uses of the stadium with the only exception of NFL football related events. That bill was about as 'fair' as you could get because the state would have most definitely gotten it's money back from it's investment (and surely you know what that is).



Sigh.

1. It is publicly controlled money. If it was private money, this wouldn't be an issue, because the government wouldn't be involved. The only expenditure that the government can control is expenditure of funds it has power to coerce the use of. The reason this is an issue because the Vikings and their supporters want access to money collected from other people who don't want them to have access.

2. If it's real money, it has multiple uses. 500 million bucks can be used a lot of ways. IMO there are a lot of ways that offer a higher investment return than a sports stadium. (If there weren't, Zygi would be investing his own $500 million.) IMO there are a lot of ways that offer a higher investment than a "multi-use stadium" -- if there weren't, the entrepreneurs who want a combined sports/event venue would be able to raise money from private investors wanting to get in on a better deal.

The notion that a state "commission" can somehow find a higher return on investment than private capital owners to me is, quite frankly, ludicrous. Put it this way, if you have, say, $10 or $10K or $100K to invest, and could ask Fidelity or your governor to manage it, who would you go to?

Me, I'd go with Fidelity every time. They're more in tune with the world with the world where real value is being created through production and trade, whereas the governor only knows how to rob Peter to pay Paul. And if I discover they're not doing well enough, I can shift funds to Vanguard or Apple Computer or whatever.




Offline Formo  
#18 Posted : Wednesday, April 18, 2012 9:50:51 AM(UTC)
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Wade said: Go to Quoted Post
Sigh.

1. It is publicly controlled money. If it was private money, this wouldn't be an issue, because the government wouldn't be involved. The only expenditure that the government can control is expenditure of funds it has power to coerce the use of. The reason this is an issue because the Vikings and their supporters want access to money collected from other people who don't want them to have access.

2. If it's real money, it has multiple uses. 500 million bucks can be used a lot of ways. IMO there are a lot of ways that offer a higher investment return than a sports stadium. (If there weren't, Zygi would be investing his own $500 million.) IMO there are a lot of ways that offer a higher investment than a "multi-use stadium" -- if there weren't, the entrepreneurs who want a combined sports/event venue would be able to raise money from private investors wanting to get in on a better deal.

The notion that a state "commission" can somehow find a higher return on investment than private capital owners to me is, quite frankly, ludicrous. Put it this way, if you have, say, $10 or $10K or $100K to invest, and could ask Fidelity or your governor to manage it, who would you go to?

Me, I'd go with Fidelity every time. They're more in tune with the world with the world where real value is being created through production and trade, whereas the governor only knows how to rob Peter to pay Paul. And if I discover they're not doing well enough, I can shift funds to Vanguard or Apple Computer or whatever.


Wade, I get your point. And it's valid. I'm not as 'principled' as you are when it comes to something like this, but I normally would agree with you. And yes, I would love it if Zigy paid for the whole thing.. but lets face the facts and be reasonable here.. NFL team owners just don't pony up and pay the full tab on new/revamped venues. The ones that do have been very well established. That said, how is it reasonable for anyone to just ask a new NFL team owner to 'pay his own way'? It isn't.

That said, the fat lady hasn't sung yet (meaning that there's still 2 weeks in this session to pass another bill) but she's tuning up. Lester Bagley already threw down the gauntlet saying how it is stupid for the politicians to think that the Vikings brass will just accept the status quo in Minnesota. I'm mentally prepared that they are leaving.
Offline gbguy20  
#19 Posted : Wednesday, April 18, 2012 10:20:38 AM(UTC)
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http://profootballtalk.n...n-there-is-no-next-year/

Quote:
“There is no next year,” Vikings V.P. of public affairs and stadium development Lester Bagley said, via the St. Paul Pioneer Press.

“The last governor said in 2006 we’ll come back and work on yours next year. That was six years ago. No action this year is a decision.”
Offline Formo  
#20 Posted : Wednesday, April 18, 2012 6:43:22 PM(UTC)
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gbguy20 said: Go to Quoted Post
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/04/17/vikings-on-stadium-situation-there-is-no-next-year/



Can't blame the Vikings.
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