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Offline Nonstopdrivel  
#31 Posted : Thursday, April 19, 2012 4:52:51 PM(UTC)
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Quote:
$43 million in unexpected financing costs.

That is a nice little euphemism for "exorbitant interest rates levied by skittish investors wanting to ensure they get something -- anything -- back on their money."
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Offline Nonstopdrivel  
#32 Posted : Thursday, April 19, 2012 4:57:05 PM(UTC)
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By the way, Shawn, thanks for the excellent article. It solidly busts the myth that stadiums are good for the economy. These studies that seem to demonstrate the benefits of stadiums are commissioned by the people wanting to build the stadium and are thus sunnily optimistic at best, downright self-serving at worst.

Sure, you might create a few jobs, but the jobs you create tend to be sh*tty, while the real money flows to the overpaid athletes who maintain their true domiciles in other areas and spend the bare minimum time possible in the team's home city. People love to side with the athletes against the fat cats, but the reality is a lot of the athletes make more from playing than the owners make for owning, which is why the owners do everything possible to pass on on the risk inherent in their wastefulness onto taxpayers.

Like I said, extravagantly expensive hobbies. Little more than vehicles for rich men to show off their wealth and have a little fun on the side.

I don't begrudge any man his chance to make an opulent paycheck, but I do resent being forced to fork over my own cash to facilitate that opportunity for him. I don't think the taxpayers should function as an insurance service for risky corporate ventures.

Edited by user Thursday, April 19, 2012 5:08:46 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Offline Zero2Cool  
#33 Posted : Thursday, April 19, 2012 5:04:41 PM(UTC)
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I didn't think you'd have a response Rourke. Good work!
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Offline Nonstopdrivel  
#34 Posted : Thursday, April 19, 2012 5:07:09 PM(UTC)
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What are you talking about?
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Offline DakotaT  
#35 Posted : Thursday, April 19, 2012 6:34:14 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Nonstopdrivel Go to Quoted Post
What are you talking about?


Sarcasm
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thanks Post received 1 applause.
Zero2Cool on 4/20/2012(UTC)
Offline Formo  
#36 Posted : Thursday, April 19, 2012 7:05:13 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Nonstopdrivel Go to Quoted Post
To the contrary, it is 100 percent reasonable and in fact should be a firm prerequisite to purchasing an NFL franchise. If you can't fund your own stadium, tough: you either live without or you don't receive the franchise.

The reason why these team owners ask for state funds is because they know full well that the return on investment is abysmal on these things -- below the rate of inflation. It is a form of fraud as far as I am concerned. These men won't invest their own money, and they can't find any private investors to finance their projects, because they are fully aware what an irresponsible, counterproductive use of the money it is; so they foist it off on gullible taxpayers. What so many fans fail to grasp is that sports teams are nothing more than extravagantly expensive, low-profit-margin hobbies for billionaires. A couple of years ago they leaked the Cowboys' profit/loss statements. That team netted a deplorable $10 million on a nearly $1 billion annual budget. In any other industry, that would be grounds for immediate termination of -- at the very least -- the CEO. It would probably result in a whole-scale bloodletting among the executives.

It gets worse. For all the talk about the taxpayers getting back their investment, a significant proportion of stadiums -- in all sports -- are shuttered before the mortgages are even paid off. Not only do these stadiums not turn a profit, they don't even break even. It is almost impossible to fill them with events other than games (if they even sell out for the games), and the rest of the time they sit empty, a fixed cost that returns no revenue. There is a reason why most civic centers and arenas are owned by municipalities: no private corporation is silly enough to build and maintain one. It requires the coercive power of government to get them built.

And yes, all of this applies to the Green Bay Packers too. The reason why they resorted to their bogus novelty stock sale was because obtaining other sorts of funding was impossible or unreasonably expensive. So they settled on handing out worthless trinkets with no cash value in exchange for donations. I actually have no problem with this. In my opinion, if you aren't willing to risk your own money, you can't fool a private investor into funding your project, and you can't even cajole your fans into making donations to the building fund, you have no business compelling millions of taxpayers, many of whom may have no interest in your team whatsoever, to cough up the cash for you. At least the Packers had the integrity (this time, anyway) to limit the damage to people with an active rooting interest in the team. I still think the people of Brown County were silly for letting themselves get taxed in exchange for tickets only 8000 of them will be able to win.


Exactly. Why would we, taxpayers, expect a owner to build something that A) he most likely isn't liquid enough to afford and B) knows it will put him in the meat-grinder financially? Especially when the norm in this instance is public funds almost always go towards these castles. This is what I meant by reasonable, and Wade is probably right, realistic would maybe be the better term.

Lets not forget supply and demand here.. The NFL is a hot ticket and there are many markets that want a franchise. I would be interested to see how much public money from those markets would go towards a new stadium? Obviously MN 'leaders' (and I use that term loosely) don't want an NFL franchise, or at least take that 'privilege' for granted.

And of course, we are talking in broad generalizations. In this case, there wasn't much, if any, general fund public money going towards a new stadium. Gambling profit percentages and reworking a current MPLS tax were the 'public' money being asked for.

I agree with your last paragraph 100%, though. Sports memorabilia tax statewide would be the ideal tax/public money for the stadium. It taxes those vistors from out of state/country and it taxes those who choose to be taxed and those that would care for the team as you already said. But, alas, this is the MN legislature we are talking about here.
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Offline Zero2Cool  
#37 Posted : Friday, April 20, 2012 5:07:29 AM(UTC)
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I think the Packers did the right thing with making Lambeau Field a year round attraction. The Packers are "publicly" owned, so I'm fine with us taxpayers chipping in. Then again, how about if they got all the shareholders together to pitch in to renovate the stadium? lol

I wonder if it would be possible for the Vikings owner to build a stadium and then lease it out to Minnesota year around for attractions when the Vikings are not using it? It seems silly to have a stadium that costs so much to be used less than a dozen times per year. There has to be better options available.

BTW, I do agree, the owner/s of a team should finance the stadium... after all I can't ask Green Bay (reasonably) to finance a portion of the costs to replace the transmission in my car. Granted, the Packers offer an bring a lot to Green Bay, far more than my car, ... you get the point.

Edit,10 things to know about the Vikings stadium situation

Edited by user Friday, April 20, 2012 5:18:01 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Offline wpr  
#38 Posted : Friday, April 20, 2012 5:44:32 AM(UTC)
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good read Zero.

While I would prefer the Vikings to stay in MN I can see the benefits to the franchise if they pick up and move to LA. If I recall there are a couple of groups vying to a franchise out there. I think one of them was willing to privately fund their new stadium plus play the huge fee to get the new team.

LA, 2nd largest, at 3.7 million has a lot more muscle than Minneapolis, # 48, at 382,000.
Metroplex difference is even greater. 13 million people vs 3.3 million.
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Offline Zero2Cool  
#39 Posted : Friday, April 20, 2012 5:51:08 AM(UTC)
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Los Angeles lost the Rams and Raiders, why bring another team there?

At least when the Minnesota North Stars moved to Dallas the name was a better fit than the Los Angeles Lakers or what seems to be inevitable, the Los Angeles Vikings. Hey, the Vikings and Lakers will have similar color schemes in the same city!!!
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Offline Wade  
#40 Posted : Friday, April 20, 2012 7:29:00 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Nonstopdrivel Go to Quoted Post
That is a nice little euphemism for "exorbitant interest rates levied by skittish investors wanting to ensure they get something -- anything -- back on their money."


Hehe...my first thought was something different: lawyer and CPA costs. "Billable hours" can be a wonderful thing....if you don't have to write the checks.

And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
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Offline wpr  
#41 Posted : Friday, April 20, 2012 8:06:33 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool Go to Quoted Post
Los Angeles lost the Rams and Raiders, why bring another team there?

At least when the Minnesota North Stars moved to Dallas the name was a better fit than the Los Angeles Lakers or what seems to be inevitable, the Los Angeles Vikings. Hey, the Vikings and Lakers will have similar color schemes in the same city!!!


12 million reasons. New stadium which is what both prior teams were looking for will take one of the biggest hurdles out of the equation.
"You don't hurt 'em if you don't hit 'em." Chesty Puller



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Offline Zero2Cool  
#42 Posted : Friday, April 20, 2012 8:25:19 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: wpr Go to Quoted Post
12 million reasons. New stadium which is what both prior teams were looking for will take one of the biggest hurdles out of the equation.


Reading 12 million reasons, I was thinking population, if that's not it, I have no clue. Also, it's not the 100% population because they have two NBA teams, at least one Hockey team, a Soccer team, etc ... fan base is spread and I'm not even including the teams in Oakland or Sacramento or San Diego or San Fransisco. You get the idea. That's why I say the Packers mean more and bring more to Green Bay than most other NFL teams. You crazy blowhards who hate everything tax refuse to hear my words. EVEN WHEN I AM SHOUTING!


(ps, i ignore myself too, at least two of the voices anyhow)
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Offline Cheesey  
#43 Posted : Friday, April 20, 2012 10:57:18 AM(UTC)
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There are cities all over the country that would LOVE to have a professional football team, and would build a stadium for them.
I heard that Minnesota would even build one if they could get a pro team.
Big Grin
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Offline Wade  
#44 Posted : Friday, April 20, 2012 1:09:37 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool Go to Quoted Post
Reading 12 million reasons, I was thinking population, if that's not it, I have no clue. Also, it's not the 100% population because they have two NBA teams, at least one Hockey team, a Soccer team, etc ... fan base is spread and I'm not even including the teams in Oakland or Sacramento or San Diego or San Fransisco. You get the idea. That's why I say the Packers mean more and bring more to Green Bay than most other NFL teams. You crazy blowhards who hate everything tax refuse to hear my words. EVEN WHEN I AM SHOUTING!


(ps, i ignore myself too, at least two of the voices anyhow)



Did anyone hear Kevin say something?
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And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
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Offline zombieslayer  
#45 Posted : Friday, April 20, 2012 1:42:27 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: wpr Go to Quoted Post
12 million reasons. New stadium which is what both prior teams were looking for will take one of the biggest hurdles out of the equation.


You mean 12 million people who can't tell a football from a watermelon?

It's no coincidence that every football team there fails.
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