Green Bay Packers Forum

Welcome to your Green Bay Packers Online Community!

Since 2006, PackersHome has been providing a unique experience for fans.
Your participation is greatly anticipated!
Login or Register.
20 Pages«<23456>»
Options
Go to last post Go to first unread
Offline Nonstopdrivel  
#31 Posted : Thursday, April 19, 2012 4:52:51 PM(UTC)
Rank: Select Member

United States
Joined: 9/14/2008(UTC)
Location: Germany
Applause Given: 389
Applause Received: 263
Quote:
$43 million in unexpected financing costs.

That is a nice little euphemism for "exorbitant interest rates levied by skittish investors wanting to ensure they get something -- anything -- back on their money."
Offline Nonstopdrivel  
#32 Posted : Thursday, April 19, 2012 4:57:05 PM(UTC)
Rank: Select Member

United States
Joined: 9/14/2008(UTC)
Location: Germany
Applause Given: 389
Applause Received: 263
By the way, Shawn, thanks for the excellent article. It solidly busts the myth that stadiums are good for the economy. These studies that seem to demonstrate the benefits of stadiums are commissioned by the people wanting to build the stadium and are thus sunnily optimistic at best, downright self-serving at worst.

Sure, you might create a few jobs, but the jobs you create tend to be shitty, while the real money flows to the overpaid athletes who maintain their true domiciles in other areas and spend the bare minimum time possible in the team's home city. People love to side with the athletes against the fat cats, but the reality is a lot of the athletes make more from playing than the owners make for owning, which is why the owners do everything possible to pass on on the risk inherent in their wastefulness onto taxpayers.

Like I said, extravagantly expensive hobbies. Little more than vehicles for rich men to show off their wealth and have a little fun on the side.

I don't begrudge any man his chance to make an opulent paycheck, but I do resent being forced to fork over my own cash to facilitate that opportunity for him. I don't think the taxpayers should function as an insurance service for risky corporate ventures.
Offline Zero2Cool  
#33 Posted : Thursday, April 19, 2012 5:04:41 PM(UTC)
Rank: Premier Member

Yahoo! NCAA March Madness - Gold: 2015Yahoo! Fantasy Football - Gold: 2009FleaFlicker Fantasy Football - Silver: 2010Yahoo! NCAA March Madness - Silver: 2011ESPN NCAA March Madness - Bronze: 2010Yahoo! NCAA March Madness - Bronze: 2013

United States
Joined: 10/13/2006(UTC)
Location: Green Bay, WI
Applause Given: 2,389
Applause Received: 3,742
I didn't think you'd have a response Rourke. Good work!
Offline Nonstopdrivel  
#34 Posted : Thursday, April 19, 2012 5:07:09 PM(UTC)
Rank: Select Member

United States
Joined: 9/14/2008(UTC)
Location: Germany
Applause Given: 389
Applause Received: 263
What are you talking about?
Offline DakotaT  
#35 Posted : Thursday, April 19, 2012 6:34:14 PM(UTC)
Rank: Select Member

United States
Joined: 8/18/2008(UTC)
Applause Given: 1,015
Applause Received: 2,042
Nonstopdrivel said: Go to Quoted Post
What are you talking about?


[sarcasm]
thanks Post received 1 applause.
Zero2Cool on 4/20/2012(UTC)
Offline Formo  
#36 Posted : Thursday, April 19, 2012 7:05:13 PM(UTC)
Rank: Veteran Member

Joined: 8/12/2008(UTC)
Applause Given: 216
Applause Received: 158
Nonstopdrivel said: Go to Quoted Post
To the contrary, it is 100 percent reasonable and in fact should be a firm prerequisite to purchasing an NFL franchise. If you can't fund your own stadium, tough: you either live without or you don't receive the franchise.

The reason why these team owners ask for state funds is because they know full well that the return on investment is abysmal on these things -- below the rate of inflation. It is a form of fraud as far as I am concerned. These men won't invest their own money, and they can't find any private investors to finance their projects, because they are fully aware what an irresponsible, counterproductive use of the money it is; so they foist it off on gullible taxpayers. What so many fans fail to grasp is that sports teams are nothing more than extravagantly expensive, low-profit-margin hobbies for billionaires. A couple of years ago they leaked the Cowboys' profit/loss statements. That team netted a deplorable $10 million on a nearly $1 billion annual budget. In any other industry, that would be grounds for immediate termination of -- at the very least -- the CEO. It would probably result in a whole-scale bloodletting among the executives.

It gets worse. For all the talk about the taxpayers getting back their investment, a significant proportion of stadiums -- in all sports -- are shuttered before the mortgages are even paid off. Not only do these stadiums not turn a profit, they don't even break even. It is almost impossible to fill them with events other than games (if they even sell out for the games), and the rest of the time they sit empty, a fixed cost that returns no revenue. There is a reason why most civic centers and arenas are owned by municipalities: no private corporation is silly enough to build and maintain one. It requires the coercive power of government to get them built.

And yes, all of this applies to the Green Bay Packers too. The reason why they resorted to their bogus novelty stock sale was because obtaining other sorts of funding was impossible or unreasonably expensive. So they settled on handing out worthless trinkets with no cash value in exchange for donations. I actually have no problem with this. In my opinion, if you aren't willing to risk your own money, you can't fool a private investor into funding your project, and you can't even cajole your fans into making donations to the building fund, you have no business compelling millions of taxpayers, many of whom may have no interest in your team whatsoever, to cough up the cash for you. At least the Packers had the integrity (this time, anyway) to limit the damage to people with an active rooting interest in the team. I still think the people of Brown County were silly for letting themselves get taxed in exchange for tickets only 8000 of them will be able to win.


Exactly. Why would we, taxpayers, expect a owner to build something that A) he most likely isn't liquid enough to afford and B) knows it will put him in the meat-grinder financially? Especially when the norm in this instance is public funds almost always go towards these castles. This is what I meant by reasonable, and Wade is probably right, realistic would maybe be the better term.

Lets not forget supply and demand here.. The NFL is a hot ticket and there are many markets that want a franchise. I would be interested to see how much public money from those markets would go towards a new stadium? Obviously MN 'leaders' (and I use that term loosely) don't want an NFL franchise, or at least take that 'privilege' for granted.

And of course, we are talking in broad generalizations. In this case, there wasn't much, if any, general fund public money going towards a new stadium. Gambling profit percentages and reworking a current MPLS tax were the 'public' money being asked for.

I agree with your last paragraph 100%, though. Sports memorabilia tax statewide would be the ideal tax/public money for the stadium. It taxes those vistors from out of state/country and it taxes those who choose to be taxed and those that would care for the team as you already said. But, alas, this is the MN legislature we are talking about here.
Offline Zero2Cool  
#37 Posted : Friday, April 20, 2012 5:07:29 AM(UTC)
Rank: Premier Member

Yahoo! NCAA March Madness - Gold: 2015Yahoo! Fantasy Football - Gold: 2009FleaFlicker Fantasy Football - Silver: 2010Yahoo! NCAA March Madness - Silver: 2011ESPN NCAA March Madness - Bronze: 2010Yahoo! NCAA March Madness - Bronze: 2013

United States
Joined: 10/13/2006(UTC)
Location: Green Bay, WI
Applause Given: 2,389
Applause Received: 3,742
I think the Packers did the right thing with making Lambeau Field a year round attraction. The Packers are "publicly" owned, so I'm fine with us taxpayers chipping in. Then again, how about if they got all the shareholders together to pitch in to renovate the stadium? lol

I wonder if it would be possible for the Vikings owner to build a stadium and then lease it out to Minnesota year around for attractions when the Vikings are not using it? It seems silly to have a stadium that costs so much to be used less than a dozen times per year. There has to be better options available.

BTW, I do agree, the owner/s of a team should finance the stadium... after all I can't ask Green Bay (reasonably) to finance a portion of the costs to replace the transmission in my car. Granted, the Packers offer an bring a lot to Green Bay, far more than my car, ... you get the point.

Edit,10 things to know about the Vikings stadium situation
Offline wpr  
#38 Posted : Friday, April 20, 2012 5:44:32 AM(UTC)
Rank: Select Member

PackersHome NFL Pick'em - Gold: 2012PackersHome NFL Pick'em - Gold: 2013FleaFlicker Fantasy Football - Silver: 2014FleaFlicker Fantasy Football - Bronze: 2013

Joined: 8/8/2008(UTC)
Applause Given: 3,659
Applause Received: 1,864
good read Zero.

While I would prefer the Vikings to stay in MN I can see the benefits to the franchise if they pick up and move to LA. If I recall there are a couple of groups vying to a franchise out there. I think one of them was willing to privately fund their new stadium plus play the huge fee to get the new team.

LA, 2nd largest, at 3.7 million has a lot more muscle than Minneapolis, # 48, at 382,000.
Metroplex difference is even greater. 13 million people vs 3.3 million.
Offline Zero2Cool  
#39 Posted : Friday, April 20, 2012 5:51:08 AM(UTC)
Rank: Premier Member

Yahoo! NCAA March Madness - Gold: 2015Yahoo! Fantasy Football - Gold: 2009FleaFlicker Fantasy Football - Silver: 2010Yahoo! NCAA March Madness - Silver: 2011ESPN NCAA March Madness - Bronze: 2010Yahoo! NCAA March Madness - Bronze: 2013

United States
Joined: 10/13/2006(UTC)
Location: Green Bay, WI
Applause Given: 2,389
Applause Received: 3,742
Los Angeles lost the Rams and Raiders, why bring another team there?

At least when the Minnesota North Stars moved to Dallas the name was a better fit than the Los Angeles Lakers or what seems to be inevitable, the Los Angeles Vikings. Hey, the Vikings and Lakers will have similar color schemes in the same city!!!
Offline Wade  
#40 Posted : Friday, April 20, 2012 7:29:00 AM(UTC)
Rank: Veteran Member

Joined: 8/1/2009(UTC)
Location: nowhere of importance
Applause Given: 889
Applause Received: 912
Nonstopdrivel said: Go to Quoted Post
That is a nice little euphemism for "exorbitant interest rates levied by skittish investors wanting to ensure they get something -- anything -- back on their money."


Hehe...my first thought was something different: lawyer and CPA costs. "Billable hours" can be a wonderful thing....if you don't have to write the checks.

Rss Feed 
Users browsing this topic
Guest
20 Pages«<23456>»
Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

Notification

Icon
Error


Fan Shout
hardrocker950 (6h) : Just wonderful - my pick em didn't register....
beast (15h) : I'm not sure if it's still true, but it used to be hard to get sacks on Eli because he'd toss one up when linemen got semi-close (which lead
Zero2Cool (16h) : Slam Eli a lot very early. Once rattled he can't regain composure.
beast (17h) : since slot WRs might be the Packers strength depth/talent wise
beast (17h) : With AR's passing % down field so low, I've been saying they should go with short passes like the Pats used to do, especially since slot WRs
beast (17h) : What's going to be needed against the Giants is OL and DBs (IMO)
Smokey (28-Sep) : Cook(TE) has time to heal, but may not be needed against NYG on Oct 9th .
Zero2Cool (27-Sep) : . Aaron Rodgers has a completion percentage of 33.3 on 10+ air yard passes this season (tied for the lowest in NFL).
Zero2Cool (27-Sep) : High-ankle sprain could sideline Cook
Zero2Cool (26-Sep) : Odell Beckham Jr, Dez Bryant, Alshon Jeffery and Julio Jones on tap for Packers. Yippie.
Cheesey (26-Sep) : Arnold Palmer was a class act all around. RIP
Smokey (26-Sep) : Rest in Peace Arnold Palmer, you blessed us all .
hardrocker950 (26-Sep) : What a strange weekend of football
jdlax (26-Sep) : What's up, friends? It's like bizzaro world right now trailing the Vikings. Blah.
GoPack1984 (25-Sep) : Ryan Fitzpatrick threw 6 interceptions!
TheKanataThrilla (25-Sep) : Cleveland loses.
The_Green_Ninja (25-Sep) : I swear, Jacksonville's hot weather must be a huge advantage. Kept it super close with the Ravens
TheKanataThrilla (25-Sep) : Su'a Cravens with a big INT. A guy I wanted.
TheKanataThrilla (25-Sep) : Can Cleveland win?
Zero2Cool (25-Sep) : T.J. Lang said after one of Aaron Rodgers' TD passes the Packers quarterback head-butted Lang in excitement and said "I'm back."
Zero2Cool (25-Sep) : Terrelle Pryor could see snaps at quarterback
Zero2Cool (25-Sep) : inactives 6 Callahan 37 Shields 42 Burnett 52 Matthews 68 Murphy 95 Jones 98 Guion
Mucky Tundra (25-Sep) : GET HYPE
Zero2Cool (25-Sep) : Packers aim to showcase speed of Ty Montgomery, Trevor Davis
Zero2Cool (25-Sep) : CB Quinten Rollins will start for Shields. Micah Hyde for Burnett. Julius Peppers for Matthews. Kenny Clark for Guion.
Tezzy (25-Sep) : Probably will not be on the top of the Pick'Em leaderboard after today, soaking it in beforehand
Tezzy (25-Sep) : Foosball!
yooperfan (25-Sep) : Game day, tee it up and get this show on the road!
dyeah_gb (25-Sep) : Dyeah! Go Pack!
buckeyepackfan (25-Sep) : GOOD MORNING PACKER FANS! GAMEDAY! GO! PACK! GO!
flep (25-Sep) : Gameday!!! Will see you all in chat later
The_Green_Ninja (25-Sep) : Also, I'm not sure if you guys know. I'm a Memphis Tigers fan. Start looking a Riley Ferguson, QB. He is the real deal.
The_Green_Ninja (24-Sep) : Big whoop, we have Aaron. We are going to win. H8ers.
Zero2Cool (24-Sep) : Matthews, Burnett out; Guion, Jones doubtful
Zero2Cool (24-Sep) : thank ya
Please sign in to use Fan Shout

Road To Super Bowl LI
Sunday, Sep 11 @ 12:00 PM
at Jaguars
Sunday, Sep 18 @ 7:30 PM
at Vikings
Sunday, Sep 25 @ 12:00 PM
LIONS
Sunday, Oct 2 @ 12:00 AM
BYE
Sunday, Oct 9 @ 7:30 PM
GIANTS
Sunday, Oct 16 @ 3:25 PM
COWBOYS
Thursday, Oct 20 @ 7:25 PM
BEARS
Sunday, Oct 30 @ 12:00 PM
at Falcons
Sunday, Nov 6 @ 3:25 PM
COLTS
Sunday, Nov 13 @ 12:00 PM
at Titans
Sunday, Nov 20 @ 7:30 PM
at Redskins
Monday, Nov 28 @ 7:30 PM
at Eagles
Sunday, Dec 4 @ 12:00 PM
TEXANS
Sunday, Dec 11 @ 3:25 PM
SEAHAWKS
Sunday, Dec 18 @ 12:00 PM
at Bears
Saturday, Dec 24 @ 12:00 PM
VIKINGS
Sunday, Jan 1 @ 12:00 PM
at Lions

Think About It
Think About It

Recent Topics
2h / Green Bay Packers Talk / The_Green_Ninja

2h / Around The NFL / Cheesey

2h / Green Bay Packers Talk / mi_keys

2h / Green Bay Packers Talk / Cheesey

7h / Green Bay Packers Talk / steveishere

10h / Green Bay Packers Talk / wpr

12h / Green Bay Packers Talk / nerdmann

14h / Green Bay Packers Talk / blueleopard

14h / Around The NFL / Mucky Tundra

14h / Green Bay Packers Talk / DarkaneRules

18h / Fantasy Sports Talk / Smokey

29-Sep / Green Bay Packers Talk / wpr

29-Sep / Green Bay Packers Talk / blueleopard

28-Sep / Green Bay Packers Talk / The_Green_Ninja

28-Sep / Green Bay Packers Talk / DoddPower


Packers Headlines