Green Bay Packers Forum

Welcome to your Green Bay Packers Online Community!

Since 2006, PackersHome has been providing a unique experience for fans.
Your participation is greatly anticipated!
Login or Register.
20 Pages«<23456>»
Options
Go to last post Go to first unread
Offline Nonstopdrivel  
#31 Posted : Thursday, April 19, 2012 4:52:51 PM(UTC)
Rank: Select Member

United States
Joined: 9/14/2008(UTC)
Location: Germany
Applause Given: 389
Applause Received: 263
Quote:
$43 million in unexpected financing costs.

That is a nice little euphemism for "exorbitant interest rates levied by skittish investors wanting to ensure they get something -- anything -- back on their money."
Offline Nonstopdrivel  
#32 Posted : Thursday, April 19, 2012 4:57:05 PM(UTC)
Rank: Select Member

United States
Joined: 9/14/2008(UTC)
Location: Germany
Applause Given: 389
Applause Received: 263
By the way, Shawn, thanks for the excellent article. It solidly busts the myth that stadiums are good for the economy. These studies that seem to demonstrate the benefits of stadiums are commissioned by the people wanting to build the stadium and are thus sunnily optimistic at best, downright self-serving at worst.

Sure, you might create a few jobs, but the jobs you create tend to be shitty, while the real money flows to the overpaid athletes who maintain their true domiciles in other areas and spend the bare minimum time possible in the team's home city. People love to side with the athletes against the fat cats, but the reality is a lot of the athletes make more from playing than the owners make for owning, which is why the owners do everything possible to pass on on the risk inherent in their wastefulness onto taxpayers.

Like I said, extravagantly expensive hobbies. Little more than vehicles for rich men to show off their wealth and have a little fun on the side.

I don't begrudge any man his chance to make an opulent paycheck, but I do resent being forced to fork over my own cash to facilitate that opportunity for him. I don't think the taxpayers should function as an insurance service for risky corporate ventures.
Offline Zero2Cool  
#33 Posted : Thursday, April 19, 2012 5:04:41 PM(UTC)
Rank: Premier Member

Yahoo! NCAA March Madness - Gold: 2015Yahoo! Fantasy Football - Gold: 2009FleaFlicker Fantasy Football - Silver: 2010Yahoo! NCAA March Madness - Silver: 2011ESPN NCAA March Madness - Bronze: 2010Yahoo! NCAA March Madness - Bronze: 2013

United States
Joined: 10/13/2006(UTC)
Location: Green Bay, WI
Applause Given: 2,323
Applause Received: 3,584
I didn't think you'd have a response Rourke. Good work!
Offline Nonstopdrivel  
#34 Posted : Thursday, April 19, 2012 5:07:09 PM(UTC)
Rank: Select Member

United States
Joined: 9/14/2008(UTC)
Location: Germany
Applause Given: 389
Applause Received: 263
What are you talking about?
Offline DakotaT  
#35 Posted : Thursday, April 19, 2012 6:34:14 PM(UTC)
Rank: Select Member

United States
Joined: 8/18/2008(UTC)
Applause Given: 961
Applause Received: 1,960
Nonstopdrivel said: Go to Quoted Post
What are you talking about?


[sarcasm]
thanks Post received 1 applause.
Zero2Cool on 4/20/2012(UTC)
Offline Formo  
#36 Posted : Thursday, April 19, 2012 7:05:13 PM(UTC)
Rank: Veteran Member

Joined: 8/12/2008(UTC)
Applause Given: 216
Applause Received: 154
Nonstopdrivel said: Go to Quoted Post
To the contrary, it is 100 percent reasonable and in fact should be a firm prerequisite to purchasing an NFL franchise. If you can't fund your own stadium, tough: you either live without or you don't receive the franchise.

The reason why these team owners ask for state funds is because they know full well that the return on investment is abysmal on these things -- below the rate of inflation. It is a form of fraud as far as I am concerned. These men won't invest their own money, and they can't find any private investors to finance their projects, because they are fully aware what an irresponsible, counterproductive use of the money it is; so they foist it off on gullible taxpayers. What so many fans fail to grasp is that sports teams are nothing more than extravagantly expensive, low-profit-margin hobbies for billionaires. A couple of years ago they leaked the Cowboys' profit/loss statements. That team netted a deplorable $10 million on a nearly $1 billion annual budget. In any other industry, that would be grounds for immediate termination of -- at the very least -- the CEO. It would probably result in a whole-scale bloodletting among the executives.

It gets worse. For all the talk about the taxpayers getting back their investment, a significant proportion of stadiums -- in all sports -- are shuttered before the mortgages are even paid off. Not only do these stadiums not turn a profit, they don't even break even. It is almost impossible to fill them with events other than games (if they even sell out for the games), and the rest of the time they sit empty, a fixed cost that returns no revenue. There is a reason why most civic centers and arenas are owned by municipalities: no private corporation is silly enough to build and maintain one. It requires the coercive power of government to get them built.

And yes, all of this applies to the Green Bay Packers too. The reason why they resorted to their bogus novelty stock sale was because obtaining other sorts of funding was impossible or unreasonably expensive. So they settled on handing out worthless trinkets with no cash value in exchange for donations. I actually have no problem with this. In my opinion, if you aren't willing to risk your own money, you can't fool a private investor into funding your project, and you can't even cajole your fans into making donations to the building fund, you have no business compelling millions of taxpayers, many of whom may have no interest in your team whatsoever, to cough up the cash for you. At least the Packers had the integrity (this time, anyway) to limit the damage to people with an active rooting interest in the team. I still think the people of Brown County were silly for letting themselves get taxed in exchange for tickets only 8000 of them will be able to win.


Exactly. Why would we, taxpayers, expect a owner to build something that A) he most likely isn't liquid enough to afford and B) knows it will put him in the meat-grinder financially? Especially when the norm in this instance is public funds almost always go towards these castles. This is what I meant by reasonable, and Wade is probably right, realistic would maybe be the better term.

Lets not forget supply and demand here.. The NFL is a hot ticket and there are many markets that want a franchise. I would be interested to see how much public money from those markets would go towards a new stadium? Obviously MN 'leaders' (and I use that term loosely) don't want an NFL franchise, or at least take that 'privilege' for granted.

And of course, we are talking in broad generalizations. In this case, there wasn't much, if any, general fund public money going towards a new stadium. Gambling profit percentages and reworking a current MPLS tax were the 'public' money being asked for.

I agree with your last paragraph 100%, though. Sports memorabilia tax statewide would be the ideal tax/public money for the stadium. It taxes those vistors from out of state/country and it taxes those who choose to be taxed and those that would care for the team as you already said. But, alas, this is the MN legislature we are talking about here.
Offline Zero2Cool  
#37 Posted : Friday, April 20, 2012 5:07:29 AM(UTC)
Rank: Premier Member

Yahoo! NCAA March Madness - Gold: 2015Yahoo! Fantasy Football - Gold: 2009FleaFlicker Fantasy Football - Silver: 2010Yahoo! NCAA March Madness - Silver: 2011ESPN NCAA March Madness - Bronze: 2010Yahoo! NCAA March Madness - Bronze: 2013

United States
Joined: 10/13/2006(UTC)
Location: Green Bay, WI
Applause Given: 2,323
Applause Received: 3,584
I think the Packers did the right thing with making Lambeau Field a year round attraction. The Packers are "publicly" owned, so I'm fine with us taxpayers chipping in. Then again, how about if they got all the shareholders together to pitch in to renovate the stadium? lol

I wonder if it would be possible for the Vikings owner to build a stadium and then lease it out to Minnesota year around for attractions when the Vikings are not using it? It seems silly to have a stadium that costs so much to be used less than a dozen times per year. There has to be better options available.

BTW, I do agree, the owner/s of a team should finance the stadium... after all I can't ask Green Bay (reasonably) to finance a portion of the costs to replace the transmission in my car. Granted, the Packers offer an bring a lot to Green Bay, far more than my car, ... you get the point.

Edit,10 things to know about the Vikings stadium situation
Offline wpr  
#38 Posted : Friday, April 20, 2012 5:44:32 AM(UTC)
Rank: Select Member

PackersHome NFL Pick'em - Gold: 2012PackersHome NFL Pick'em - Gold: 2013FleaFlicker Fantasy Football - Silver: 2014FleaFlicker Fantasy Football - Bronze: 2013

Joined: 8/8/2008(UTC)
Applause Given: 3,506
Applause Received: 1,765
good read Zero.

While I would prefer the Vikings to stay in MN I can see the benefits to the franchise if they pick up and move to LA. If I recall there are a couple of groups vying to a franchise out there. I think one of them was willing to privately fund their new stadium plus play the huge fee to get the new team.

LA, 2nd largest, at 3.7 million has a lot more muscle than Minneapolis, # 48, at 382,000.
Metroplex difference is even greater. 13 million people vs 3.3 million.
Offline Zero2Cool  
#39 Posted : Friday, April 20, 2012 5:51:08 AM(UTC)
Rank: Premier Member

Yahoo! NCAA March Madness - Gold: 2015Yahoo! Fantasy Football - Gold: 2009FleaFlicker Fantasy Football - Silver: 2010Yahoo! NCAA March Madness - Silver: 2011ESPN NCAA March Madness - Bronze: 2010Yahoo! NCAA March Madness - Bronze: 2013

United States
Joined: 10/13/2006(UTC)
Location: Green Bay, WI
Applause Given: 2,323
Applause Received: 3,584
Los Angeles lost the Rams and Raiders, why bring another team there?

At least when the Minnesota North Stars moved to Dallas the name was a better fit than the Los Angeles Lakers or what seems to be inevitable, the Los Angeles Vikings. Hey, the Vikings and Lakers will have similar color schemes in the same city!!!
Offline Wade  
#40 Posted : Friday, April 20, 2012 7:29:00 AM(UTC)
Rank: Veteran Member

Joined: 8/1/2009(UTC)
Location: nowhere of importance
Applause Given: 883
Applause Received: 900
Nonstopdrivel said: Go to Quoted Post
That is a nice little euphemism for "exorbitant interest rates levied by skittish investors wanting to ensure they get something -- anything -- back on their money."


Hehe...my first thought was something different: lawyer and CPA costs. "Billable hours" can be a wonderful thing....if you don't have to write the checks.

Rss Feed 
Users browsing this topic
Guest (2)
20 Pages«<23456>»
Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

Notification

Icon
Error


Fan Shout
Cheesey (25-Jul): Me neither. He did virtually nothing after he left the Packers.
Zero2Cool (25-Jul): WR Greg Jennings retires. I think I should be surprised, but I'm not.
Cheesey (23-Jul): It's sad, he was young.
wpr (22-Jul): Sorry to hear about Dennis passing away.
Zero2Cool (22-Jul): Hopefully people respect his passing without trying to make jokes.
Zero2Cool (22-Jul): Damn, Dennis Green passed away.
Zero2Cool (22-Jul): Bahahahah
Smokey (16-Jul): Playing 2016 Fantasy Football ? NO ? Contact me to join the Tailgaters Fantasy Football League !
wpr (15-Jul): Happy birthday since69
Zero2Cool (15-Jul): Whoa!Today's Birthdays: Since69 (51)
Zero2Cool (15-Jul): No sir. But at work we had our A/C go out, not fun lol
Smokey (14-Jul): Did recent bad weather affect you Zero ? ie: loss of electricity ?
Zero2Cool (14-Jul): stay cool bud ... thats some hot crap there
Smokey (14-Jul): Heat Index 104* : Richmond , VA.
Zero2Cool (14-Jul): Richard Rodgers and Aaron Rodgers win ESPY for play of year!! Wohooo
Smokey (14-Jul): A.Rodgers wins ESPY for Hail Mary Play .
Smokey (14-Jul): The ESPY's are ON !
Cheesey (13-Jul): Yeah...stinky cheese, for sure!
yooperfan (12-Jul): Happy belated birthday Cheesey, may you have many more!
Zero2Cool (11-Jul): That be some old cheese yo!! lol
Cheesey (10-Jul): Porforis, I won't live THAT long!
Porforis (10-Jul): You'll live just long enough for the Vikings to win a super bowl. Thankfully, I think you're going to outlive all of us!
wpr (10-Jul): Hey Alanhope you have a great day.
Cheesey (10-Jul): Thanks guys. I'm 59 today. Never thought I'd live this long.
Smokey (9-Jul): MAY THE PACK BE WITH YOU !
Smokey (9-Jul): I did not know Cheesey , HAPPY BIRTHDAY !! \_/
Cheesey (9-Jul): Guess I'll have to wish myself a happy birthday.
wpr (1-Jul): Hey grabacr hope you had a fantastic day
Zero2Cool (30-Jun): Today's Birthdays: Grabacr (28)
wpr (30-Jun): Be nice Zero. She was here on the 15th. She stops in but doesn't post.
Zero2Cool (29-Jun): Last I remember of her is complaining about the back alley, rather than just AVOIDING IT. Annoying.
Cheesey (29-Jun): I agree. Happy B-day "Illy Jules!"Wish you were still here!
Wade (28-Jun): Happy birthday, Julie, wherever you are.
Zero2Cool (28-Jun): Today's Birthdays: 4PackGirl (47)
Zero2Cool (24-Jun): ;-)
Please sign in to use Fan Shout

Road To Super Bowl LI
Sunday, Sep 11 @ 12:00 PM
at Jaguars
Sunday, Sep 18 @ 7:30 PM
at Vikings
Sunday, Sep 25 @ 12:00 PM
LIONS
Sunday, Oct 2 @ 12:00 AM
BYE
Sunday, Oct 9 @ 7:30 PM
GIANTS
Sunday, Oct 16 @ 3:25 PM
COWBOYS
Thursday, Oct 20 @ 7:25 PM
BEARS
Sunday, Oct 30 @ 12:00 PM
at Falcons
Sunday, Nov 6 @ 3:25 PM
COLTS
Sunday, Nov 13 @ 12:00 PM
at Titans
Sunday, Nov 20 @ 7:30 PM
at Redskins
Monday, Nov 28 @ 7:30 PM
at Eagles
Sunday, Dec 4 @ 12:00 PM
TEXANS
Sunday, Dec 11 @ 3:25 PM
SEAHAWKS
Sunday, Dec 18 @ 12:00 PM
at Bears
Saturday, Dec 24 @ 12:00 PM
VIKINGS
Sunday, Jan 1 @ 12:00 PM
at Lions

Think About It
Think About It

Recent Topics
7h / Around The NFL / Smokey

9h / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

9h / Green Bay Packers Talk / musccy

12h / Green Bay Packers Talk / macbob

15h / Green Bay Packers Talk / Smokey

15h / Green Bay Packers Talk / nerdmann

17h / Green Bay Packers Talk / Cheesey

17h / Green Bay Packers Talk / Cheesey

20h / Green Bay Packers Talk / nerdmann

22h / Green Bay Packers Talk / nerdmann

22h / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

23h / Green Bay Packers Talk / DarkaneRules

26-Jul / Green Bay Packers Talk / TheKanataThrilla

25-Jul / Green Bay Packers Talk / PackerTraxx

25-Jul / Green Bay Packers Talk / Cheesey


Packers Headlines