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Offline Wade  
#16 Posted : Monday, July 23, 2012 9:23:54 AM(UTC)
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Personally, I think erecting statues, naming buildings, etc. after still-living people is a horrible idea. Smacks of idolatry, for one. And even if, somehow, we could create this as an exception to the Great Commandment, I think it encourages people to do things for the wrong reason.* If you have to get public adulation to do the right thing, then you're a loser; and if you're rich and have to get public adulation to do the right thing, you're worse than a loser.

Oh, wait a minute, that is what Joe P turned out to be, isn't it?

*Come to think of it, I don't think we should be erecting statues or naming buildings after individuals after all.**

**Except for "Provo's Privy" (applause to the first person who gets the 'artistic' reference; no Googling, please).
None of the above. It wouldn't have been a wasted vote. Obama and Romney -- Those were the wasted votes.
Offline Pack93z  
#17 Posted : Monday, July 23, 2012 12:12:38 PM(UTC)
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The only part of the sanctions that I like.. that the 60 million dollar fine is going towards assistance in supporting the prevention of cases like this.

That and the vacating of the wins.. however that really means little other than fluffy record book stuff.

But if the NCAA doesn't think that this is going to trickle down to the students of Penn State and the taxpayers of PA they are ignorant.

Revenues are going to be severely reduced for the football program.. which per the NCAA (if we believe them) are used to fund other sports programs and overall tuition fees. So if that money disappears.. whom does it effect? Ahh.. the students of course... or the tax payers of the state to recoup the reduced revenue.

Scholarship reduction truly affects students.. not much more than that.. other than the quality of the team itself.



I have to laugh though at the Ed Ray reference to the NCAA core values.. of fairness and respect. This is the same panel that supports the sham that is currently the football BCS format and now this end all be all of the 4 team playoff.

The NCAA and the conferences.. these dog and pony show types like Emmert and Ray.. they give only a shit about the overall revenues that they pull into the NCAA and that fill the high ranking officers at the NCAA and Conference levels that have milked the system for hundreds of millions a year.

60 Million dollars in gross revenue per a caliber school like Penn State.. seriously.. and they only trickle down budget tight stipends to the players generating that revenue. And that is to be viewed as fair?

Bullshit.

These bastards are the poster boys for putting sports ahead of academics.. or more like putting their pocketbooks from their ivory towers ahead of the student athletes supporting their existence.

This was a PR move.. nothing more.. to protect the integrity of their cash cow.


Mark Emmert Annual Salary for instance.. 1.6m per year. Per 2010 Tax records.

A little more.. averaging out the total revenue taking in by top 30 programs.. 11.48% of all revenues are used for Scholarships.. 32.46 % to the coaches.. but in those other expenses (you know buried in with travel expenses) are those executives, conference dues and NCAA contributions.... 31.64% . Buildings and Grounds make the remaining percentage of 15.61.. the remainder is net profit.

Edited by user Monday, July 23, 2012 1:01:51 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

I think when there's enough will and aggression, there's no shortage of talent either.

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thanks Post received 2 applause.
4PackGirl on 7/23/2012(UTC), Wade on 7/23/2012(UTC)
Offline dhazer  
#18 Posted : Monday, July 23, 2012 3:15:21 PM(UTC)
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The problem with the 60 Million dollar fine is that they are raising the tuition. I talked to a girl that goes there today and she said she was already informed that an increase will be made for all student tuition. How is that fair so the ones that are being punished are the kids that had nothing to do with this whole thing. But then again why should I think it would be different, after all we are in the US were the rich get away with everything.
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Just Imagine this for the next 6-9 years. What a ride it will be :)
Offline Zero2Cool  
#19 Posted : Tuesday, July 24, 2012 5:08:54 AM(UTC)
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First, I don't really know all the details to this, but it seems odd to me how this punishment was levied so harshly to Penn State. I agree with the 98-2011 wins being removed, the four year bowl ban, but the 60 million dollar fine doesn't make much sense to me.

WOW! I just looked this up to get more information to base an opinion on and came across this. "NCAA president Mark Emmert didn't punish former president Graham Spanier, former athletic director Tim Curley or former vice president Gary Schultz at all during Monday's dog-and-pony-show press conference in Indianapolis."


Sandusky, Paterno, Curley and Schultz are the ones who should be punished.



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Offline Wade  
#20 Posted : Tuesday, July 24, 2012 5:30:54 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: dhazer Go to Quoted Post
The problem with the 60 Million dollar fine is that they are raising the tuition. I talked to a girl that goes there today and she said she was already informed that an increase will be made for all student tuition. How is that fair so the ones that are being punished are the kids that had nothing to do with this whole thing. But then again why should I think it would be different, after all we are in the US were the rich get away with everything.


Tuition increases aren't made that quickly. They are made after a long process with input from multiple committees of faculty and administration as set up in already-established college governance procedures, and, in the case of a state university, the legislative budget process. Any increase for the upcoming school year was made over the last several months, long before any NCAA fine was imposed. Unless this 60 million fine was expected back in December or even earlier, there's no way this current year's increase was "because" of the fine.

As for next year, there is no doubt in my mind that tuition will be going up at Penn State next year, just as there is no doubt in my mind that it will be going up at virtually every university country-wide. The schools that aren't increasing are going to be rare exceptions -- higher ed is so effed up right now, and the mentality of those making money decisions is that this is only going to be solved by a combination of (a) cutting programs/services and (b) raising tuition. The only places that won't be playing by that rule are those which are rich enough not to depend on either tuition revenues or government monies -- e.g. the Ivies and stinking-rich undergraduate schools like Grinnell, Swarthmore, and such.

Now, I have no doubt that the decision-makers will find a way to blame anyone they can. That's why virtually every one of those tuition increase letters received by students and their parents will continue to blame "higher costs" and "the economy" rather than past mismanagement (even though the reality is that a downturn in the economy is almost always accompanied by an increase in demand for higher ed.

And so I would not be surprised if the Penn State administration uses the occasion of the NCAA/Big Ten sanctions as a scapegoat in what they tell people -- in fact I'd be surprised if they didn't. It's too easy a way to distract the increase-payers-who-are-also-fans from their real responsibilities over the way the University raises and spends its money.



None of the above. It wouldn't have been a wasted vote. Obama and Romney -- Those were the wasted votes.
Offline Wade  
#21 Posted : Tuesday, July 24, 2012 5:51:08 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool Go to Quoted Post
First, I don't really know all the details to this, but it seems odd to me how this punishment was levied so harshly to Penn State. I agree with the 98-2011 wins being removed, the four year bowl ban, but the 60 million dollar fine doesn't make much sense to me.

WOW! I just looked this up to get more information to base an opinion on and came across this. "NCAA president Mark Emmert didn't punish former president Graham Spanier, former athletic director Tim Curley or former vice president Gary Schultz at all during Monday's dog-and-pony-show press conference in Indianapolis."


Sandusky, Paterno, Curley and Schultz are the ones who should be punished.




1. The 60 million is there because the NCAA wants it to hurt where administrators and those who pay them are going to feel the pain, in pocketbook-decisions. Taking scholarships away, taking bowl games away, those aren't going to be felt by current administrators -- they'll just be able to blame the NCAA, after all. But a 60 million hit on the revenue side -- that means they are going to have to make a lot more visible decisions about a lot of funds. Whether it's in tuition increases, non-athletic-program cuts, or just uncomfortable questions from Pennsylvania legislators and their budget committees, the 60 million fine is going to be felt more personally by the successors to Spanier, Curley, Schultz, and Paterno. And that is what the NCAA/Big Ten wants.

(Now whether a mere 60 million is actually big enough to make things felt for the muckety-mucks at big-budget schools like PSU, that's another question. Part of the reason higher ed is in such straits today is that 60 million is actually relatively small potatoes for the bigger schools. It would bankrupt a school like mine, but the typical Big Ten university that annually spends well over a billion dollars? Belt-tightening, yes. Disaster? Maybe, maybe not.)

2. Didn't Emmert say something to the effect that the NCAA may still impose other sanctions after the criminal litigation runs its course re: Curley, Schultz, and, presumably, Spanier? As for Sandusky, I'm not sure, but he is being punsished about as severely short of a actual death penalty (does Pennsylvania have one for this sort of offense?) as he could be. I suppose the state of Pennsylvania could try some ex post facto confiscation of his wealth, but that would be, IMO, about as unconstitutional and unlawful as it gets: you don't get to change the rules of punishment for a crime for past crimes, no matter how heinous they are. And as for Paterno, he's beyond earthly punishment now and I'm not sure how much more can be done to trash his reputation than has already been done.

None of the above. It wouldn't have been a wasted vote. Obama and Romney -- Those were the wasted votes.
Offline Zero2Cool  
#22 Posted : Tuesday, July 24, 2012 5:58:12 AM(UTC)
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So the NCAA wants to punish those who succeed the last regime rather than that regime itself?

Who gets the $60 million? Does it get dispersed between the victims?

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Offline Porforis  
#23 Posted : Tuesday, July 24, 2012 6:23:04 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool Go to Quoted Post
First, I don't really know all the details to this, but it seems odd to me how this punishment was levied so harshly to Penn State. I agree with the 98-2011 wins being removed, the four year bowl ban, but the 60 million dollar fine doesn't make much sense to me.

WOW! I just looked this up to get more information to base an opinion on and came across this. "NCAA president Mark Emmert didn't punish former president Graham Spanier, former athletic director Tim Curley or former vice president Gary Schultz at all during Monday's dog-and-pony-show press conference in Indianapolis."


Sandusky, Paterno, Curley and Schultz are the ones who should be punished.


I'm pretty sure I heard on the radio (WTMJ) shortly after this broke that they would make a determination about sanctions against individual people now. When you think about it though, the NCAA really doesn't have power to punish individuals that aren't involved with athletic programs... This is 100% on the college to get rid of anybody that was involved with this crap.
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Offline Zero2Cool  
#24 Posted : Tuesday, July 24, 2012 9:29:46 AM(UTC)
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Penn State has about $1 billion in debt.

Ya know what, just make an example of Penn State that if anything suspicious ever happening, report it to the authorities at the local police station. Shut Penn State down, permanently. Every Nitnany Lion has been tarnished, close it down. It's not worth trying to administer an adequate punishment, because there is none.

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Offline Wade  
#25 Posted : Tuesday, July 24, 2012 9:51:41 AM(UTC)
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Expect between 10 and 40% of current institutions of higher education to fail in the next 10 years or so. Expect another 40% or more to survive only in a form that is virtually unrecognizable compared to what they are today.

I don't know enough about Penn State to know where they are at, what they might offer that others might not, their academic strengths and weaknesses, etc.,, but if you're right that they are currently sitting on a billion of debt even before this PR/financial nightmare, they're going to have to guess right about a lot of things having absolutely nothing to do with football or sports.

There is going to be a *lot* of bloodletting in the next decade or so. (Regardless of whether the "great crash" happens to the economy as a whole or not.

Bank on it.


p.s. And many would consider me a flaming optimist.
None of the above. It wouldn't have been a wasted vote. Obama and Romney -- Those were the wasted votes.
Offline Nonstopdrivel  
#26 Posted : Monday, July 30, 2012 10:13:58 AM(UTC)
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It's threads like these that are one of the main reasons I don't come here much anymore. The vitriol spilled here is just wearing after a while. It makes me wonder what you guys say about me behind my back.

One thing being in Iraq did for me -- it really cured me of my holier-than-thou attitude. I tried as hard as I could not to be tainted by some of the stuff that was going on, and it ended up affecting even me in ways that just scared me. So I no longer have the idea that "I could never do that." Any human, anywhere, any time is capable of committing acts of unspeakable evil, sometimes almost without realizing it. Standing in judgement doesn't give you the moral high ground. It just makes your own pedestal that much more precarious.

Self-righteousness is just a form of pride, and they say pride was the original and worst sin.
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Offline Zero2Cool  
#27 Posted : Monday, July 30, 2012 10:33:21 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Nonstopdrivel Go to Quoted Post
It's threads like these that are one of the main reasons I don't come here much anymore. The vitriol spilled here is just wearing after a while. It makes me wonder what you guys say about me behind my back.

One thing being in Iraq did for me -- it really cured me of my holier-than-thou attitude. I tried as hard as I could not to be tainted by some of the stuff that was going on, and it ended up affecting even me in ways that just scared me. So I no longer have the idea that "I could never do that." Any human, anywhere, any time is capable of committing acts of unspeakable evil, sometimes almost without realizing it. Standing in judgement doesn't give you the moral high ground. It just makes your own pedestal that much more precarious.

Self-righteousness is just a form of pride, and they say pride was the original and worst sin.


You don't come around here anymore because everyone here has been cured in their grammatical ways. :)

And Rourke, you don't have to open these threads bud, lol.


I *think* I know what you're saying by "i could never do that". I remember people saying if they were married to Elin Nordegren they would never even consider the notion of cheating on her. How do they know that dating someone so voluptuous doesn't give them a big ego that they can do anyone without any consequences and thus feel superior to being caught?

We often don't know our limits until presented with situations of temptation.


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Offline Wade  
#28 Posted : Monday, July 30, 2012 2:29:50 PM(UTC)
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Well, certainly we judge too easily and too often. Rourke, you're correct on that. Though I'm not sure there's more judgmentalism here on PH than elsewhere in today's society, If anything, there's less than average.

That doesn't make what we do right. It's never a defense to say "others are worse" or "everyone does it."

I don't know if all of us are evil or capable of evil acts under the "right circumstances". I do believe we are all fallen, but that's not the same thing. And because we are fallen, we ought to claim righteousness we don't have.

But we can still condemn evil acts. What Sandusky did was evil. And, IMO, what Paterno, et al, did was even more evil.

Does that mean Sandusky is an evil man or that Paterno is a more evil man. No. Only God knows that. Only God has the ability to rank our evil characters.

Unfortunately, however, part of our being fallen is that we're always going to be susceptible to the sinful act of judgment when we encounter acts we consider especially evil. Should we get vitriolic toward Paterno, call him names, tell him to burn in hell? No. (Well, as a Christian, I shouldn't, anyway.) But part of being fallen means that not only will we be tempted to judge where we shouldn't, we will.

So, IMO, we should no more judge others judgmentalism than we should judge what they are judging. Point out, again that they are judging and taking God's task for their own? Yes. Refuse to associate with them, that, too, is within our power. But set ourselves above them? No.

There's Jesus. And there's the rest of us. And that's the only "relative degree of character" that should matter to us.

IMO.
None of the above. It wouldn't have been a wasted vote. Obama and Romney -- Those were the wasted votes.
Offline Pack93z  
#29 Posted : Friday, August 17, 2012 7:10:41 AM(UTC)
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Just when things start to quiet down just a bit for the university.. they make a bad decision and are going to be pounded yet again in the court of public opinion.

Why foot the bill for the two at the head of this story, but not for the one that out of the people in the know did the most to stop this?

No matter the answer.. they are going to be grilled over it.


Quote:
While Penn State continues to pay the legal expenses of former university officials Gary Shultz and Tim Curley, it is not footing the bills for a key witness against Jerry Sandusky at his child sex abuse trial, Mike McQueary, NBC News has learned.

Schultz, a former senior vice president at Penn State, and Curley, the former athletic coordinator, are accused of lying to a grand jury about what they knew of sex abuse allegations against Sandusky. Their case faced its first test in court on Thursday, when defense lawyers argued that the charges should be dismissed.

McQueary, a former Penn State assistant coach, testified before a grand jury and at Sandusky’s trial that he saw Sandusky raping a boy as young as 10 in a locker room shower at Penn State in 2001. McQueary testified that he reported the incident to Joe Paterno, Penn State’s legendary former football coach, and later spoke to Tim Curley and Gary Schultz, a meeting that according to McQueary’s testimony took 15 minutes.

Read More...
I think when there's enough will and aggression, there's no shortage of talent either.

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Offline Formo  
#30 Posted : Friday, August 17, 2012 11:05:56 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Pack93z Go to Quoted Post
Just when things start to quiet down just a bit for the university.. they make a bad decision and are going to be pounded yet again in the court of public opinion.

Why foot the bill for the two at the head of this story, but not for the one that out of the people in the know did the most to stop this?

No matter the answer.. they are going to be grilled over it.




I guess it's all relative.. but did the most?! Really?! So you walk in on one of your bosses close friends raping a 10 year old boy.. What do you do? You run straight to your boss? Or do you call 911? Or wait, even better.. You STOP THE FUCKING RAPE ASAP! I can't imagine being that poor kid. Getting sodomized or whatever happened to be the case and all of a sudden it gets interrupted by another coach who is significantly stronger than your assaulter. Hopes high that he'll stop this living Hell from continuing. What does McQueary do? Exchanges a few words and then WALKS AWAY. Of course, to make matters worse, he doesn't even call the PROPER authorities, he tells JoePa.

Yeah, JoePa and the idiots above him jacked up big time. I'm not saying they didn't. But McQueary.. He's got a special place in Hell right next to Sandirtbag.
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