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Online DarkaneRules  
#51 Posted : Tuesday, October 9, 2012 2:02:55 PM(UTC)
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And why do people forget that MOST RBs take time to get going. Not everyone is Adrian Peterson. See how better the Vikings are with him back in the fray!
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Offline Zero2Cool  
#52 Posted : Tuesday, October 9, 2012 2:11:09 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DarkaneRules Go to Quoted Post
And why do people forget that MOST RBs take time to get going. Not everyone is Adrian Peterson. See how better the Vikings are with him back in the fray!


No one is forgetting that, maybe zombieslayer? I know Shawn and I have several times said you have to run the ball to be successful running the ball. You can't pass 14 times and sprinkle one run in there and expect your RB to be in the groove. Cedric Benson even said as much after I think the Seahawks game ... said that he needed more carries to get into the groove.

I bet McCarthy would swap out boxers mid-round too and expect them to deliver a knockout blow!
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Online DarkaneRules  
#53 Posted : Tuesday, October 9, 2012 2:24:58 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool Go to Quoted Post
No one is forgetting that, maybe zombieslayer? I know Shawn and I have several times said you have to run the ball to be successful running the ball. You can't pass 14 times and sprinkle one run in there and expect your RB to be in the groove. Cedric Benson even said as much after I think the Seahawks game ... said that he needed more carries to get into the groove.

I bet McCarthy would swap out boxers mid-round too and expect them to deliver a knockout blow!


Exactly! Not liking the offensive coordinating.

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Offline zombieslayer  
#54 Posted : Tuesday, October 9, 2012 6:25:29 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Pack93z Go to Quoted Post
I have and you have ignored in the past.

I went through and graphed the impact on teams over the course of a season in offensive and defensive impact and it received zero comments or rebuttal. Wait, there was the garbage time runs, which I followed up and showed there was less than a 2% impact in four quarter additional runs. And that was from Greg C.

But yet, I am to readily consume your research as gospel. Really? Tisk, tisk Zombie. Big Grin


In the end, Macbob and I ended up agreeing. It's about rushing attempts, not rushing yards. I know that sounds counter-intuitive, but that's how it is.

So of the arguments I put forth, I was right about elite RBs actually being a bad thing for your team and rushing yards not mattering. I was wrong about passing percentages. I thought we can safely pass 65% of the time. That's wrong. Of the SB winners in the past 5 years, all 5 of them passed more than 50% of the time (so that throws away the idea of a run first team as those teams nowadays don't win championships), but if you go too far lopsided in pass first, those don't win championships either.

I'm not accusing you, Pack93z, but there are some on this board who cannot admit when they're wrong. I readily admit I was wrong on going too far gung ho on passing. The numbers showed I went too far. But anyone who says we should be a run first team, if you want to lead this team, you won't win a Championship. And, we're not the Vikings. We're a Lombardi or bust team. We're here to win Championships, not just have an 8-8 record.

Now just in case anyone was wondering, the last 5 SB winners were pass first teams, just not as pass first as what I advocated several years ago. The 2011 Giants threw 589 vs 411 rushing attempts. That would be a 59% passing team. The 2010 Packers threw 541 vs 421 runs. That would be a 56% passing team. I said 65% pass. I readily admit that was too gung ho now.
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Offline zombieslayer  
#55 Posted : Tuesday, October 9, 2012 6:32:54 PM(UTC)
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Just one more stat just in case anyone's curious. The last run first team to win the SB was the 2005 Steelers. That team had Willie Parker and Jermome Bettis.
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Offline PackFanWithTwins  
#56 Posted : Tuesday, October 9, 2012 6:58:04 PM(UTC)
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Two backs running production in the same 1st half Sunday.

A. 3,-2,1,-1,2,1,22,-1,6
B. 4,0,2,9,1,1,3,9,1,3

One is ours, one is Peterson? Which would you prefer?
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Offline nerdmann  
#57 Posted : Tuesday, October 9, 2012 7:14:35 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: zombieslayer Go to Quoted Post
Just one more stat just in case anyone's curious. The last run first team to win the SB was the 2005 Steelers. That team had Willie Parker and Jermome Bettis.


They also had a little help from their zebra striped friends.
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Offline Zero2Cool  
#58 Posted : Wednesday, October 10, 2012 5:36:12 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: zombieslayer Go to Quoted Post
But anyone who says we should be a run first team, if you want to lead this team, you won't win a Championship. And, we're not the Vikings. We're a Lombardi or bust team. We're here to win Championships, not just have an 8-8 record.


Originally Posted by: zombieslayer Go to Quoted Post
Just one more stat just in case anyone's curious. The last run first team to win the SB was the 2005 Steelers. That team had Willie Parker and Jermome Bettis.




I said the Packers should pass/run 60/40, that's saying pass first, not run first. I think it would be foolish to waste the WR and QB talent the Packers have by using the likes of Alex Green and/or James Starks first, lol. I laugh there because it just sounds silly saying it.


All I want is the Packers to mix it up some. Use some 3 and 5 step drops quick slant passes or some rollouts with a trailing guy in the flat to dump it to instead of Shotgun chuck it 20+ to Jordy Nelson who's double covered.

Look, I'm not the brightest guy in the room here, but when I can predict the play from the formation, guess what, so can the defense. That tells me teams know when the Packers are going to pass and they go balls out to kill the NFL MVP. I do not like that. I want to be fooled, like I was on the two special team fakes. Those I felt were BRILLIANTLY timed and executed.

Why can't we see an offense like that? BTW, I'm not saying I want to see flea flicker plays or statue of liberty type plays ... you can be brilliant with your routes, your timing of a short pass, long pass, run between tackles, etc ... be brilliant with play calling.
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Offline play2win  
#59 Posted : Wednesday, October 10, 2012 5:48:05 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool Go to Quoted Post
I said the Packers should pass/run 60/40, that's saying pass first, not run first. I think it would be foolish to waste the WR and QB talent the Packers have by using the likes of Alex Green and/or James Starks first, lol. I laugh there because it just sounds silly saying it.


As an "out-of-the-box" kind of thing, I would love to see McCarthy call this. Just shock the hell out of the opposing DC, and his own OL, who I am certain would love it as well. 60%run/40%pass.

Establish the frickin' run. Balls to the wall. Why not? McCarthy should tell Aaron, "Dude, you're going to be having an easier day today." It won't happen, but I would love to see it.

HOU is allowing 86 yds/game on 21 att. If there is a way around their strengths on defense, this is it. A whole new can-o-whoop-ass!
Offline zombieslayer  
#60 Posted : Wednesday, October 10, 2012 7:24:24 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool Go to Quoted Post
I said the Packers should pass/run 60/40, that's saying pass first, not run first. I think it would be foolish to waste the WR and QB talent the Packers have by using the likes of Alex Green and/or James Starks first, lol. I laugh there because it just sounds silly saying it.


All I want is the Packers to mix it up some. Use some 3 and 5 step drops quick slant passes or some rollouts with a trailing guy in the flat to dump it to instead of Shotgun chuck it 20+ to Jordy Nelson who's double covered.

Look, I'm not the brightest guy in the room here, but when I can predict the play from the formation, guess what, so can the defense. That tells me teams know when the Packers are going to pass and they go balls out to kill the NFL MVP. I do not like that. I want to be fooled, like I was on the two special team fakes. Those I felt were BRILLIANTLY timed and executed.

Why can't we see an offense like that? BTW, I'm not saying I want to see flea flicker plays or statue of liberty type plays ... you can be brilliant with your routes, your timing of a short pass, long pass, run between tackles, etc ... be brilliant with play calling.


Then you, me, and Macbob were saying the same thing. Yes, keep it pass first, but we'll have to run 40+% of the time, especially when our OL is better at run blocking than pass blocking in 2012.

(Sorry if I'm speaking for you Macbob. You're more than free to correct me if I'm wrong).

I said I went too gung ho with pass %. 65% is too much. High 50s to 60% seems about the right %.

But we agree that if we went to the opposite extreme (run first), then we won't win games either.
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Offline PackFanWithTwins  
#61 Posted : Wednesday, October 10, 2012 7:41:26 AM(UTC)
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Another thing I noticed when I rewatched the last game. There were 4 negative plays by Crabtree, and I credit that to either poor coaching, play calling or scheme adjustment at the line. The thing with all 4, Crabtree was single blocking either Mathis or Freeny. I could see that call if it was a run play away, or maybe a designed QB roll out away. But that wasn't the case. One was a run outside with Crabtree single blocking Freeny. Nobody could plan and think that is a good idea. Once was a holding penalty, again Crabtree single blocking Freeny in pass protection. Again, unless this was a 1 step drop slant route. Not a good idea. The other two were also pass protection.

I could see, maybe once by mistake, but 4 times? McCarthy cannot be calling plays expecting Crabtree to single block some of the best pass rushers that make Tackles look foolish. And if an alignment happens, Rodgers needs to be either adjust the play or blocking assignments, or call a TO.
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Offline zombieslayer  
#62 Posted : Wednesday, October 10, 2012 8:05:57 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: PackFanWithTwins Go to Quoted Post
Another thing I noticed when I rewatched the last game. There were 4 negative plays by Crabtree, and I credit that to either poor coaching, play calling or scheme adjustment at the line. The thing with all 4, Crabtree was single blocking either Mathis or Freeny. I could see that call if it was a run play away, or maybe a designed QB roll out away. But that wasn't the case. One was a run outside with Crabtree single blocking Freeny. Nobody could plan and think that is a good idea. Once was a holding penalty, again Crabtree single blocking Freeny in pass protection. Again, unless this was a 1 step drop slant route. Not a good idea. The other two were also pass protection.

I could see, maybe once by mistake, but 4 times? McCarthy cannot be calling plays expecting Crabtree to single block some of the best pass rushers that make Tackles look foolish. And if an alignment happens, Rodgers needs to be either adjust the play or blocking assignments, or call a TO.


That, my friend, is what we call a mismatch. If one team is consistently winning mismatch battles, then that's on the coaching.
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Offline Zero2Cool  
#63 Posted : Wednesday, October 10, 2012 8:07:01 AM(UTC)
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Barry Sanders didn't help the Lions win any Super Bowl's, and as some of you might know, I am kind of a fan of his, so I know full well that being run first doesn't do a team much justice, especially in the last 15 years.
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Offline zombieslayer  
#64 Posted : Wednesday, October 10, 2012 8:31:27 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool Go to Quoted Post
Barry Sanders didn't help the Lions win any Super Bowl's, and as some of you might know, I am kind of a fan of his, so I know full well that being run first doesn't do a team much justice, especially in the last 15 years.


Perfect example. Hands down best RB I have EVER watched.
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Offline yooperfan  
#65 Posted : Wednesday, October 10, 2012 8:41:39 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: zombieslayer Go to Quoted Post
Perfect example. Hands down best RB I have EVER watched.


Me as well.
I'm not asking for the Pack to be a run first team, they don't have that capability to even consider that, all I want is to see McCarthy use all the tools in his box and that includes running the damn ball.

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Offline PackFanWithTwins  
#66 Posted : Wednesday, October 10, 2012 9:06:44 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool Go to Quoted Post
Barry Sanders didn't help the Lions win any Super Bowl's, and as some of you might know, I am kind of a fan of his, so I know full well that being run first doesn't do a team much justice, especially in the last 15 years.


Well, there is a difference between Run First, and Run Primarily. A team can run first, but still pass 70% of the time. Can also use the screen as a run also. Cedric had a nice one Sunday.

I would prefer not be a pass first or run first team. I would like to be a team that will and can do either at any time. I think we should have at least one back in the back field at all times.
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Offline play2win  
#67 Posted : Wednesday, October 10, 2012 9:23:52 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: PackFanWithTwins Go to Quoted Post
Well, there is a difference between Run First, and Run Primarily. A team can run first, but still pass 70% of the time. Can also use the screen as a run also. Cedric had a nice one Sunday.

I would prefer not be a pass first or run first team. I would like to be a team that will and can do either at any time. I think we should have at least one back in the back field at all times.


And Rodgers under C more.
Offline PackFanWithTwins  
#68 Posted : Wednesday, October 10, 2012 9:41:27 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: play2win Go to Quoted Post
And Rodgers under C more.


Yes, and with that, how about a 1 step drop throw to a slant. All our slants are 5 yards then slant. None of the good ole, instant slant off the line, that Favre and his receivers lived off. Those work as well as a run also.

Shotgun is nice for defense. they know how deep the QB will be for thier pass rush.
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Offline zombieslayer  
#69 Posted : Wednesday, October 10, 2012 9:49:59 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: PackFanWithTwins Go to Quoted Post
Yes, and with that, how about a 1 step drop throw to a slant. All our slants are 5 yards then slant. None of the good ole, instant slant off the line, that Favre and his receivers lived off. Those work as well as a run also.


I'm wondering why we're not seeing more of those myself.
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