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Offline Rios39  
#101 Posted : Monday, October 15, 2012 4:29:40 PM(UTC)
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One has to ask though if we are actually better off with Pickett at NT. Usually the NT is known for getting a bit of push but mostly swallowing the run game. Last night was the most dominant we have been against the run. Last year we were "ok" against the run in 2010 with Raji at NT we did not do the best verse the run but had a great pass rush, in 2009 with Pickett at NT I believe we gave up the least amount of rushing yards in football.

If he's not going to be sucking up the middle of the field on run downs and his pass rush is "good" not great, maybe it's time to move him into the DE area and see if he can get some favorable matchups that way.

I guess we will see how he looks when he gets back. Our push up the middle was ok, our rush up the field was great but I've never seen the line of scrimmage get pushed so consistently into the offense side of the field against a quality team, so frequently. While playing on the road where you don't really get a jump on the snap.
Offline macbob  
#102 Posted : Monday, October 15, 2012 6:46:22 PM(UTC)
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zombieslayer said: Go to Quoted Post
Sort of sarcastic.

This is more of a response to the "we need a good RB" myth that has been harped on consistently by football fans. We don't need a "good" RB. We just need NFL caliber RBs, which means somewhere in the top 100 of the position. Yes, that's all we really need.

A good OL should open up the holes where any of the top 100 RBs in the NFL could get 3+ ypc, and that's pretty much all you need. Top $$$ should be spent on D, as from my research, D wins Championships, and secondary in importance is an elite QB. RBs don't matter, and don't even figure in the equation of who wins Championships.

Through my research, I found I was wrong about the %s of pass/run. I thought we could go 65/35. You can't do that all season long. High 50s is about the right %. And too much rushing (50% or more) is also a bad thing.

In the game last night, we got to see Green get 22 carries. The 67 yards would actually be considered "mediocre," but that's fine. Mediocre RBs are ideal as like I've said, the yards don't matter. All that matters are the carries.

You'll get the yards if you have a decent OL. Benson, Green, Starks, Ryan Grant, and probably Brandon Seine could all be thrown back there and the game results will be the same.

Green did what he was supposed to do - hold on to the football and get 3+ ypc. That's it. That's all you really need from a RB.

From a Packers' perspective, bonus if the RB can catch passes and block.


Zombie--a truly awesome post. Only two things I would have said slightly differently:

1) Top 100 RB is a 3rd stringer on the worst team in the NFL. I think you need a little higher quality than that for your starter, but agree 100% that there are better things to spend your $$ on than an elite RB.

2) Attempts/carries matter most, but yards do matter. If everytime you run you get -2 yds the defense isn't going to honor the run as much as if you get 7 yds per carry. You don't need to lead the league in rushing, but need to have a certain level of success, and I think 3 yds per carry is probably about the minimum you need to keep the D honest.

=d> =d> =d> =d> =d>
thanks Post received 2 applause.
wpr on 10/15/2012(UTC), zombieslayer on 10/15/2012(UTC)
Offline macbob  
#103 Posted : Monday, October 15, 2012 6:49:24 PM(UTC)
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DarkaneRules said: Go to Quoted Post
Do you guys think that Raji is overvalued as a run defender? Pickett seemed much more effective in there and even our nickel seems well equipped to step up over that with Neal and Worthy together.


I like Pickett moved back to NT--that's his natural position--and Raji playing DE. Think we're a better line when we're like that. Move Raji inside on obvious passing downs, but otherwise we'd have Perry and Raji over on the opposite side of CM3, and I think that would give an offense all kinds of fits.
Offline DakotaT  
#104 Posted : Monday, October 15, 2012 6:56:16 PM(UTC)
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nerdmann said: Go to Quoted Post
Raji's not known as a run defender. He's a pass rushing NT.

Pickett is the run stuffer of the group.


They should just let Pickett play the nose and then bring Raji in with Worthy when they want to rush 4.

We play some funky formations and are very rarely in our 3-4 base. What I think is stupid is playing Pickett at end. It makes no fucking sense, especially when C.J. Wilson and Neal are playing better.
Offline zombieslayer  
#105 Posted : Monday, October 15, 2012 7:14:58 PM(UTC)
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macbob said: Go to Quoted Post
Zombie--a truly awesome post. Only two things I would have said slightly differently:

1) Top 100 RB is a 3rd stringer on the worst team in the NFL. I think you need a little higher quality than that for your starter, but agree 100% that there are better things to spend your $$ on than an elite RB.

2) Attempts/carries matter most, but yards do matter. If everytime you run you get -2 yds the defense isn't going to honor the run as much as if you get 7 yds per carry. You don't need to lead the league in rushing, but need to have a certain level of success, and I think 3 yds per carry is probably about the minimum you need to keep the D honest.

=d> =d> =d> =d> =d>


Thanks Macbob. Almost brought a tear to my eye. Love Love

1) OK, maybe top 50 would be better. And don't get me wrong. I don't hate RBs. My favorite non-Packer ever was Wallie Payton. My favorite non-Packer today is Adrian Peterson. This is just what the research has been telling me.

2) Well, only a real bad back is gonna get -2 yards a carry. Even a 3rd string RB should get you at least 2.5 ypc. Unless of course your OL sucks and in that case, your QB is probably dead anyways and you won't get that far, even with an elite D. You still need some offense.

But you really don't need success. There is no historical difference since the 80s (it takes forever to sift through stats so I don't go back very far) between having the #1 rushing team and the #20 rushing team. The stand out elite rushing team who was dominant were the 90s Cows and the 90s Broncos. But there have been so many really bad teams at running the ball who have won Championships that they statistically even out the 90s Broncos and Cows.

So once again, in importance is:
1) elite D,
2) elite QB

And that's pretty much it. Of course a real bad OL gets your QB killed so that's somewhere up there in importance.


EDIT: Just in case you were wondering (which I'm sure you were) how our recent SB winning teams were in rushing, here ya go:
1996 Packers - Out of 30 teams, 14th in attempts, 11 in yards, 19th in TDs
2010 Packers - Out of 32 teams, 20th in attempts, 24th in yards, 19th in TDs

To be honest, I was surprised we ran that well in 1996. I thought we'd be in the bottom 10. But then I forgot that we had a dual RB system that year.
thanks Post received 1 applause.
macbob on 10/15/2012(UTC)
Offline Wade  
#106 Posted : Monday, October 15, 2012 7:58:53 PM(UTC)
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DarkaneRules said: Go to Quoted Post
Do you guys think that Raji is overvalued as a run defender? Pickett seemed much more effective in there and even our nickel seems well equipped to step up over that with Neal and Worthy together.


Yes.

IMO a nose tackle should routinely occupy two blockers. Far too often, Raji was getting stoned by just one.

Pickett's only problem is that with his age/weight, he can't do the volume of plays without wearing down.

I have to admit Worthy has looked better than I thought he would.

Offline Wade  
#107 Posted : Monday, October 15, 2012 8:00:00 PM(UTC)
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nerdmann said: Go to Quoted Post
Raji's not known as a run defender. He's a pass rushing NT.

Pickett is the run stuffer of the group.


Except that Raji hasn't been doing either one particularly well (except for the second half of 2010).

Offline zombieslayer  
#108 Posted : Tuesday, October 16, 2012 7:03:47 AM(UTC)
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Raji has been solid when Cullen Jenkins was in the lineup. Post-Cullen Jenkins, he's been quite average; definitely not first round material. I think one of Ted Thompson's priorities in the 2012 off-season (via draft, trade, waivers, or whatever) would be to replace Cullen Jenkins.

I've said elsewhere that the 2011 D was so bad that it may take 2 off-seasons to bring us back to elite status (as we were in 2010).
Offline DarkaneRules  
#109 Posted : Tuesday, October 16, 2012 10:25:06 AM(UTC)
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I see a Raji dilemma honestly. Wish we had another Pickett. Raji is not that. Thought he would be.
Offline Rios39  
#110 Posted : Tuesday, October 16, 2012 1:18:49 PM(UTC)
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zombieslayer said: Go to Quoted Post
Raji has been solid when Cullen Jenkins was in the lineup. Post-Cullen Jenkins, he's been quite average; definitely not first round material. I think one of Ted Thompson's priorities in the 2012 off-season (via draft, trade, waivers, or whatever) would be to replace Cullen Jenkins.

I've said elsewhere that the 2011 D was so bad that it may take 2 off-seasons to bring us back to elite status (as we were in 2010).


Well we have Worthy and Daniels as well as Wilson doing good in pass rush. What we need more of is a stout MLB. Bishop is without a doubt solid and Hawk is playing much more fast and aggressive/except in coverage. So I think we either draft a stout MLB Safety or maybe CB. All in all I'm happy with our defense but when we have to rely on our MLB's to cover. When the right plays have been called we have looked good.
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