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Offline zombieslayer  
#26 Posted : Sunday, October 21, 2012 7:21:28 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: wpr Go to Quoted Post
he did just enough to by Aaron Rodgers time to throw the ball. We are not looking for a guy who will get 150 yards rushing. He did get some key yards on passes to give them a first down. Don't make him one dimensional.


Exactly. 20 carries for 35 yards is exactly what I want out of a RB.

That way, we'll get our carries and no way in hell he'll ask for more than a million a year with a straight face.
My man Donald Driver
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2010 will be seen as the beginning of the new Packers dynasty. Ted Thompson Mike McCarthy Aaron Rodgers
Offline zombieslayer  
#27 Posted : Sunday, October 21, 2012 7:23:18 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Gaycandybacon Go to Quoted Post
haha wow... The guy didn't do half bad. Made some great catches and got us first downs. You're to hard on him, it's his 2nd game starting for crist sake and we've won both times he's carried the rock. He's carried the ball for 40+ times in 2 games that's good enough in my book!

I think Zombie said he'd get 35 on 20 carries? The man is psychic.


Yeah, I said something like that.

He did exactly what I wanted him to do - get 20+ carries. Could care less about the yards.
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2010 will be seen as the beginning of the new Packers dynasty. Ted Thompson Mike McCarthy Aaron Rodgers
Offline nerdmann  
#28 Posted : Sunday, October 21, 2012 7:28:55 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: zombieslayer Go to Quoted Post
Exactly. 20 carries for 35 yards is exactly what I want out of a RB.

That way, we'll get our carries and no way in hell he'll ask for more than a million a year with a straight face.


So Bjack is your ideal RB?
“Winning is not a sometime thing, it is an all the time thing. You don't do things right once in a while…you do them right all the time.”
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zombieslayer on 10/21/2012(UTC)
Offline zombieslayer  
#29 Posted : Sunday, October 21, 2012 7:38:57 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: nerdmann Go to Quoted Post
So Bjack is your ideal RB?


Yes. He's my perfect RB. He can block very well. He's a decent receiver. And he can't run the ball worth a damn but at least he doesn't fumble. And he'll never make much $$$, money that could be used on important positions.
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2010 will be seen as the beginning of the new Packers dynasty. Ted Thompson Mike McCarthy Aaron Rodgers
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wpr on 10/21/2012(UTC)
Offline PackFanWithTwins  
#30 Posted : Sunday, October 21, 2012 8:08:41 PM(UTC)
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To rank the problems with the run game. Has to be Scheme, blocking and then backs. And scheme is 1/2 the reason the blocking is bad. We haven't been able to consistently block the scheme since McCarthy took over. Today they went back to what was causing Benson to have not so good production. Too many shotgun draws. It is to predictable and easy to protect against. We don't have counter plays in the zone scheme. If the RB is lined to Rodgers left, the run has to go to the right. So defense does't have to think which way they need to protect.

Get Rodgers under center and run inside, let the oline block more forward instead of this crap sideways blocking. Let the horses up front do what lineman enjoy most. pushing the guy in front of them out of the way.

I have had about enough of being in 3rd and 1 or less, and not even attempting to line up with a threat of running. Teams no matter how good they pass game is, should be able to get 1 yard on the ground, and we never even try.
The world needs ditch diggers to Danny!!!
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nerdmann on 10/21/2012(UTC), wpr on 10/22/2012(UTC)
Offline Rios39  
#31 Posted : Sunday, October 21, 2012 8:20:17 PM(UTC)
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The attempts are important but I'd like to average at least 3 yards a carry. We will need it when the weather gets cool, and on 3rd and short it can be a very tough down for d's if they know we can pound it in there.

Kuhn looked good but Green wasn't given the same holes. With only one padded practice it's really hard to get the running game up to par in this era. We also tried a few weird /fancy shotgun draws that went backwards.
blank
Offline nerdmann  
#32 Posted : Sunday, October 21, 2012 8:58:03 PM(UTC)
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Micheal Rodney's Twitter:

Quote:
Had a chance to watch Johnny White the other day. New RB has some skills. I wouldn't be shocked to see him get some carries down the road.
“Winning is not a sometime thing, it is an all the time thing. You don't do things right once in a while…you do them right all the time.”
Offline Zero2Cool  
#33 Posted : Monday, October 22, 2012 5:58:10 AM(UTC)
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T.J. Lang wrote:
The good thing about today, even though we were kind of getting stuffed in the run game, we didn't just abandon it. That was good to see. Even when you're not being productive, as long as you keep pounding the rock a little bit, it still keeps them honest.
"I do not think there is any thrill that can go through the human heart like that felt by the inventor as he sees some creation of the brain unfolding to success... such emotions make a man forget food, sleep, friends, love, everything." - Nikola Tesla

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Offline zombieslayer  
#34 Posted : Monday, October 22, 2012 8:22:57 AM(UTC)
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What TJ Lang said. Yes, it's the carries that matter. The yards don't. We'll make up those yards through the air. We saw two straight games where we dominated the games and our running "sucked" but we had lots of carries.
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2010 will be seen as the beginning of the new Packers dynasty. Ted Thompson Mike McCarthy Aaron Rodgers
Online TheKanataThrilla  
#35 Posted : Monday, October 22, 2012 10:51:08 AM(UTC)
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It still pisses me off that we can't run on 3rd and short.
"Stumbling from one disaster to another" Lost Together (Blue Rodeo)
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nerdmann on 10/22/2012(UTC)
Offline PackFanWithTwins  
#36 Posted : Monday, October 22, 2012 11:18:31 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: TheKanataThrilla Go to Quoted Post
It still pisses me off that we can't run on 3rd and short.


I can't say we can't run, we never even line up to try.

I can think of One attempt and it was a Rodgers sneak. And we have been in some 3rd and <1yard. We get 3rd and 1 and we go 5 wide. That is what pisses me off.
The world needs ditch diggers to Danny!!!
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Offline nerdmann  
#37 Posted : Monday, October 22, 2012 11:45:55 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: PackFanWithTwins Go to Quoted Post
I can't say we can't run, we never even line up to try.

I can think of One attempt and it was a Rodgers sneak. And we have been in some 3rd and <1yard. We get 3rd and 1 and we go 5 wide. That is what pisses me off.


Occasionally we'll do that FB dive play with Kuhn.
“Winning is not a sometime thing, it is an all the time thing. You don't do things right once in a while…you do them right all the time.”
Online TheKanataThrilla  
#38 Posted : Monday, October 22, 2012 11:57:51 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: nerdmann Go to Quoted Post
Occasionally we'll do that FB dive play with Kuhn.


I really don't know why we don't even do that as a diversion to the pass? At least make them think we will run it.
"Stumbling from one disaster to another" Lost Together (Blue Rodeo)
Offline buckeyepackfan  
#39 Posted : Monday, October 22, 2012 12:43:16 PM(UTC)
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My My My, I'm just thinking to myself, wonder what Ryan Grant is thinking.
Probably, man I feel sorry for that kid, I put up 1200+ yds a yr. before I was injured and most wanted me gone, this kid has no chance. Oh well better him than me.

I'm gonns reference Barry Sanders here, not that Alex Green will ever be close to him.

I remember The Packers charting Barry's runs, some of you might also.
Looked something like this...2uds, 1yd, 4yds, 3yds. 6yds, -3yds, 8yds,3yds, 85 yd TD run.
Was always The Packers goal to keep Barry from hitting that one big run. Most of the time they failed, and he usually had more than 1 of those big runs.

The point is, and it has been stated many times in this thread, in today's game, today's Packers, need a RB who can in this order, pass block, catch passes out of the backfield, hold onto the ball when given his chances, get what positive yds you can when called on.

Green already has shown he can make things happen when he gets into open space, but that's not gonna happen a lot. As long as he gives The Packers the points stated above, he will be fine. Oh what a great feeling it will be when he does break out and run for daylight every once in awhile.

Enjoy the ride – It kicks and just keeps on kickin’. "Stats are for Losers"
thanks Post received 2 applause.
zombieslayer on 10/22/2012(UTC), DakotaT on 10/22/2012(UTC)
Offline Yerko  
#40 Posted : Monday, October 22, 2012 2:11:05 PM(UTC)
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He opened up the passing game and that is all we should really care about. His measly ypc backed off the pass rush...
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Offline macbob  
#41 Posted : Monday, October 22, 2012 3:16:36 PM(UTC)
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I agree that Green is good enough. Give him more opportunity and he'll get better.

Disagree with Zombie that yards don't matter. They do matter--if everytime you ran the ball the play went for a touchdown you'd attract a LOT of attention to your running game. If everytime you run it goes for -10, not so much.

So, production in the running game has SOME impact on attracting the D's attention away from your passing game--the better the production the more distracting.

What production do you need to gain to get the D's attention? I'm not sure, and I'm not even sure how you'd come up with the stats to support a minimum yards per carry.

My expectation is that it would vary based on the situation during the game--if you're winning by 20 the D may be paying more attention to the run because they expect you to run more. If you're down by 20 then it will take a LOT more production from the running game to distract the D from your passing game.

In any event, Green kept the D honest this week, even with the low yards-per-carry.

Message modified by user Thursday, October 25, 2012 2:08:50 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Offline wpr  
#42 Posted : Monday, October 22, 2012 6:08:54 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: macbob Go to Quoted Post

What production do you need to gain to get the D's attention? I'm not sure, and I'm not even sure how you'd come up with the stats to support a minimum yards per carry.



I agree the score and time left int he game will matter but in general I would say it is somewhere between 1.8 and 3.0 avg.

Code:

HOU 	22 	65 	3.0
STL 	20 	35 	1.8 
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Offline zombieslayer  
#43 Posted : Monday, October 22, 2012 8:44:39 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: macbob Go to Quoted Post
I agree that Green is good enough. Give him more opportunity and he'll get better.

Disagree with Zombie that yards don't matter. They do matter--if everytime you ran the ball the play went for a touchdown you'd attract a LOT of attention to your running game. If everytime you run it goes for -10, not so much.

So, production in the running game has SOME impact on attracting the D's attention away from your passing game--the better the production the more distracting.

What production do you need to gain to get the D's attention? I'm not sure, and I'm not even sure how you'd come up with the stats to support a minimum yards per carry.

My expectation is that it would vary based on the situation during the game--if you're winning by 20 the D may be paying more attention to the run because they expect you to run more. If you're down by 20 then it will take a LOT more production from the running game to distract the D from your passing game.

In any event, Green kept the D honest this week, even with the low runs-per-carry.


Wait. Now I'm not getting what you're saying.

You're saying that Green kept the D honest this week, even with the low runs-per-carry. That, we agree on.

But you're saying I'm wrong about the yards not mattering. How much worse can you get than 35 yards on 20 carries? Was there any RB in the NFL in the 2012 season that got such crappy production on 20 carries? Anyone? Beuller?

If anything, THAT just proved my point. The yards don't matter. 35 yards on 20 carries is downright awful. Which is great from my perspective, because we got our carries, and with such crappy production, Green can't go to Ted Thompson with a straight face and say "Hey Uncle Ted, I want $1 million a year or else I'll sign with the Buffalo Bills." The usually stone faced Uncle Ted will wet himself laughing.

And this is exactly the scenario The Zombieslayer wants - a crappy RB who can run the ball 20+ times a game and doesn't fumble. Bonus if he's a good blocker. Secondary bonus if he's a good receiver.
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Offline RaiderPride  
#44 Posted : Monday, October 22, 2012 9:49:08 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: buckeyepackfan Go to Quoted Post
I'm just thinking to myself, wonder what Ryan Grant is thinking.
Probably, man I feel sorry for that kid, I put up 1200+ yds a yr. before I was injured and most wanted me gone, this kid has no chance. Oh well better him than me.


Perhaps... But if Ryan Grant is honest to himself, he is most likely thinking...

Thank GOD the Packers pulled me out of a failed football career, by plucking me out of a practice squad, and giving me an opportunity. An opportunity to step into a position that 12 other practice squad running backs would have produced the numbers as I did. Thank God I had the opportunity to be over paid by screwing the Packers and holding them hostage due to the turmoil the team was in during my contract negotiations.



""People Will Probably Never Remember What You Said, And May Never Remember What You Did. However, People Will Always Remember How You Made Them Feel."
thanks Post received 1 applause.
wpr on 10/23/2012(UTC)
Offline Gaycandybacon  
#45 Posted : Monday, October 22, 2012 10:01:29 PM(UTC)
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I just don't know what peoples expectations are anymore... Ecspecially expectations for a passing team. People should realise our short passing game is our running game. Dumpoffs, Running back screens, option to run or throw a bubble screen etc. etc. They all help us move the chains. Kuhn, Cobb, and Green all excell at this. We dominated the TOP with these types of things sunday. Some of you guys should know yards don't tell the whole story. Running for big yards is overrated.

Would you rather have Adrain Peterson or Aaron Rodgers win you games? Choose wisely boys.
thanks Post received 3 applause.
RaiderPride on 10/22/2012(UTC), wpr on 10/23/2012(UTC), zombieslayer on 10/23/2012(UTC)
Offline RaiderPride  
#46 Posted : Monday, October 22, 2012 10:17:30 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Gaycandybacon Go to Quoted Post
I just don't know what peoples expectations are anymore... Ecspecially expectations for a passing team. People should realise our short passing game is our running game. Dumpoffs, Running back screens, option to run or throw a bubble screen etc. etc. They all help us move the chains. Kuhn, Cobb, and Green all excell at this. We dominated the TOP with these types of things sunday. Some of you guys should know yards don't tell the whole story. Running for big yards is overrated.

Would you rather have Adrain Peterson or Aaron Rodgers win you games? Choose wisely boys.


I will not only applaud your thinking and logic.. I shall re-post it.

Mike and the coaches/coordinators have excelled in mastering the T.O.P. (Time Of Possession) mastery in the second half of the last two games.

""People Will Probably Never Remember What You Said, And May Never Remember What You Did. However, People Will Always Remember How You Made Them Feel."
Offline nerdmann  
#47 Posted : Monday, October 22, 2012 10:46:02 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Gaycandybacon Go to Quoted Post
I just don't know what peoples expectations are anymore... Ecspecially expectations for a passing team. People should realise our short passing game is our running game. Dumpoffs, Running back screens, option to run or throw a bubble screen etc. etc. They all help us move the chains. Kuhn, Cobb, and Green all excell at this. We dominated the TOP with these types of things sunday. Some of you guys should know yards don't tell the whole story. Running for big yards is overrated.

Would you rather have Adrain Peterson or Aaron Rodgers win you games? Choose wisely boys.


I'm all for short, high percentage passing. That's classic WCO.

Unfortunately Mike McCarthy prefers a vertical "Run and Shoot" philosophy, which doesn't include much consideration for ToP. Oh yeah, and also with zone blocking. lol
“Winning is not a sometime thing, it is an all the time thing. You don't do things right once in a while…you do them right all the time.”
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TheKanataThrilla on 10/23/2012(UTC)
Offline Gaycandybacon  
#48 Posted : Monday, October 22, 2012 11:21:51 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: nerdmann Go to Quoted Post
I'm all for short, high percentage passing. That's classic WCO.

Unfortunately Mike McCarthy prefers a vertical "Run and Shoot" philosophy, which doesn't include much consideration for ToP. Oh yeah, and also with zone blocking. lol


I think Mike likes an Up Tempo Versitle Offense. He challanges the Offensive players to play in any formation, and expects them to execute in every one of the plays. It's not so much run it once then hope for the best and throw down field. He plays to situational football. When he gets an oppurtunity he will take his shots. Sure the Offense was not performing well for a couple of games. But in the last 2 games I say we've put together the fourmula to win each time. Pass the ball and keep the flow of the game at a fast pace keeping that defense off balanced. And we balance that passing game with tons of carries and effective short passing. Give Green and company a few games to get this run game going. It'll get better.
Offline steveishere  
#49 Posted : Tuesday, October 23, 2012 4:10:17 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: PackFanWithTwins Go to Quoted Post
I can't say we can't run, we never even line up to try.

I can think of One attempt and it was a Rodgers sneak. And we have been in some 3rd and <1yard. We get 3rd and 1 and we go 5 wide. That is what pisses me off.


GB has been pretty good as far as I know in recent years at converting 3rd downs. So long as they convert why should it piss you off how they did it?
thanks Post received 2 applause.
wpr on 10/23/2012(UTC), zombieslayer on 10/23/2012(UTC)
Offline PackFanWithTwins  
#50 Posted : Tuesday, October 23, 2012 5:53:49 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: steveishere Go to Quoted Post
GB has been pretty good as far as I know in recent years at converting 3rd downs. So long as they convert why should it piss you off how they did it?


We have been good at 3rd downs, but not at 3rd and short. On pass plays in general, we drop about 13% on 3rd & <2 from 3rd and 3-7. NFL wide, 70% conversion when running on 3rd & 1, 58% passing. Kuhn alone is almost 80% on his attempts at 3rd/4th and 1.

Not saying we have to run on them all. But at least line up and make it look like we might, and use the odds to give us what ever advantage we can get. When we go shotgun and empty the back field, it takes the option completely away.
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thanks Post received 1 applause.
TheKanataThrilla on 10/23/2012(UTC)
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