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beast  
#21 Posted : Tuesday, October 30, 2012 11:34:48 AM(UTC)


I like the idea of a fake but have some other problems with play they picked.


1) They faked a run but sliding him to his left... that might be fine if he was an experienced passer... but as far as I know he's not, why not tell him to stay put so he can focus on proper foot placement, which leads to a better pass.

2) Why did they put in two kickers? That didn't make sense to me.

2a) If they're doing it off of a fake FG kick they could of put Cobb in as the holder (Cobb has been the holders and still is the back-up holder) also Cobb has played the wild cat QB in college and has also thrown some WR passes in college, and much more of a threat to run it and get away from a pass rush. Also I think Cobb is left handed just like the punter.

2b) If they did it off of a fake Punt they wouldn't of had to put in Crosby, who I think most people didn't think was a threat to be thrown to.
Pack93z  
#22 Posted : Tuesday, October 30, 2012 11:41:03 AM(UTC)
Do you not think if they put Harrell or Cobb in to hold for the kick that the Jags might have read that something is up?

Porforis  
#23 Posted : Tuesday, October 30, 2012 11:42:53 AM(UTC)
beast said: Go to Quoted Post
I like the idea of a fake but have some other problems with play they picked.


1) They faked a run but sliding him to his left... that might be fine if he was an experienced passer... but as far as I know he's not, why not tell him to stay put so he can focus on proper foot placement, which leads to a better pass.

2) Why did they put in two kickers? That didn't make sense to me.

2a) If they're doing it off of a fake FG kick they could of put Cobb in as the holder (Cobb has been the holders and still is the back-up holder) also Cobb has played the wild cat QB in college and has also thrown some WR passes in college, and much more of a threat to run it and get away from a pass rush. Also I think Cobb is left handed just like the punter.

2b) If they did it off of a fake Punt they wouldn't of had to put in Crosby, who I think most people didn't think was a threat to be thrown to.


1. Masthay is the normal holder unless I'm crazy
2. Putting Cobb in there immediately tips off the special teams to trickery. By leaving Masthay in there rather than sending Cobb back to pass, it's much more believable that they were just going to punt it away. With Cobb back there, it's obvious they're trying to pick up the first down. Maybe they could try sneaking him in elsewhere in the formation, have Masthay lateral it to him if nobody's wide open right away and let Cobb decide whether he's going to run with it or pass it. But that's too complicated of a play IMO.
3. Masthay's not a terrible passer, in fact his other NFL throw resulted in a TD for what that's worth. He just didn't make a great read, and tried making a very difficult pass. The pass itself looked good, just way underthrown because he was throwing it something like 15 yards deep across the length of the field. He might not be a terrible passer, but he's still a punter, he's going to have a noodle arm.
wpr  
#24 Posted : Tuesday, October 30, 2012 12:09:02 PM(UTC)
Porforis said: Go to Quoted Post
1. Masthay is the normal holder unless I'm crazy
2. Putting Cobb in there immediately tips off the special teams to trickery. By leaving Masthay in there rather than sending Cobb back to pass, it's much more believable that they were just going to punt it away. With Cobb back there, it's obvious they're trying to pick up the first down. Maybe they could try sneaking him in elsewhere in the formation, have Masthay lateral it to him if nobody's wide open right away and let Cobb decide whether he's going to run with it or pass it. But that's too complicated of a play IMO.
3. Masthay's not a terrible passer, in fact his other NFL throw resulted in a TD for what that's worth. He just didn't make a great read, and tried making a very difficult pass. The pass itself looked good, just way underthrown because he was throwing it something like 15 yards deep across the length of the field. He might not be a terrible passer, but he's still a punter, he's going to have a noodle arm.


agreed. Cobb as the holder would have changed the coverage personnel. They would have potentially changed personnel if they say Cobb on the field anyway. After reviewing 100 other kick formations without Cobb would have meant something was up.
yooperfan  
#25 Posted : Tuesday, October 30, 2012 12:27:08 PM(UTC)
It made one of the top 5 dumbest decisions on "Mike and Mike".
beast  
#26 Posted : Tuesday, October 30, 2012 12:46:46 PM(UTC)
Pack93z said: Go to Quoted Post
Do you not think if they put Harrell or Cobb in to hold for the kick that the Jags might have read that something is up?


Do you think the Jags are stupid enough not to know something is up when Tim Masthay stands up in shotgun and Crosby and the others spread out? The set-up TOLD the other team something is up. You could of had anybody in there and the Jags would of known something was up when they switched to the different set up.

So

1) The set-up told them something was up no matter the player

2) The Packers have been able to sneak Flynn into a couple different ST plays, why would Cobb be different?

3) Even if it's not Cobb, faking a punt and putting someone in there besides Crosby would of still be better set-up.

Porforis said: Go to Quoted Post
1. Masthay is the normal holder unless I'm crazy
2. Putting Cobb in there immediately tips off the special teams to trickery. By leaving Masthay in there rather than sending Cobb back to pass, it's much more believable that they were just going to punt it away. With Cobb back there, it's obvious they're trying to pick up the first down. Maybe they could try sneaking him in elsewhere in the formation, have Masthay lateral it to him if nobody's wide open right away and let Cobb decide whether he's going to run with it or pass it. But that's too complicated of a play IMO.
3. Masthay's not a terrible passer, in fact his other NFL throw resulted in a TD for what that's worth. He just didn't make a great read, and tried making a very difficult pass. The pass itself looked good, just way underthrown because he was throwing it something like 15 yards deep across the length of the field. He might not be a terrible passer, but he's still a punter, he's going to have a noodle arm.



1) I agree Masthay is the normal holder.

2) If they see Cobb, then yes maybe... but Cobb is also the back-up holder, and they could sneak him in just like they did with Flynn.

And the set-up gave it away that it was a trick when they spread everyone out and the punter stood up. Why would you have a kicker as a gunner? It was clearly a trick after that.

3) His touchdown pass was what, a 5 yard screen pass with a long run?

Also I think it's fine with Masthay passing it, my problem with that was putting him motion and then asking him to pass it. To me it wasn't a noodle arm pass, it was a pass off his back foot, while leaning back-wards and the wrong way. If you're going to ask a kicker to pass it, keep them in the pocket (unless they're good with their footwork on the run, which was one of the problems (also that he had a rusher in his face, but if he stayed put, the blocker would of been between him and the rusher, and he wouldn't of had to rush the pass.)


Porforis  
#27 Posted : Tuesday, October 30, 2012 12:51:05 PM(UTC)
My point is that while it's obvious that it's a trick play when they change formations, it's NOT obvious that they're going to try to go for the first when you send your punter back in shotgun formation in a spot in the field where a punt would be ideal. The second Cobb is back in shotgun, any doubt is completely eliminated. As far as Crosby going out wide as a gunner, where else is he supposed to go in that formation where he's less likely to get killed?
Pack93z  
#28 Posted : Tuesday, October 30, 2012 12:54:43 PM(UTC)
beast said: Go to Quoted Post
Do you think the Jags are stupid enough not to know something is up when Tim Masthay stands up in shotgun and Crosby and the others spread out? The set-up TOLD the other team something is up. You could of had anybody in there and the Jags would of known something was up when they switched to the different set up.

So

1) The set-up told them something was up no matter the player

2) The Packers have been able to sneak Flynn into a couple different ST plays, why would Cobb be different?

3) Even if it's not Cobb, faking a punt and putting someone in there besides Crosby would of still be better set-up.



It was about personnel grouping on the Jags part... so.. they didn't shift until after the players are set.. so by trotting out Mastay, the Packers apparently liked the match ups with the personnel on the field. The benefit of even trotting out the unit.. to gain the personnel advantage, or what they perceived to be so.

Otherwise.. if you are just going to go for it.. then why not have your best players on the field.. with Rodgers leading the play?



beast  
#29 Posted : Tuesday, October 30, 2012 12:56:39 PM(UTC)
yooperfan said: Go to Quoted Post
It made one of the top 5 dumbest decisions on "Mike and Mike".


Hiring Mike Greenberg for that should of been one as well...
okay maybe not really...

But the guy bugs the crap out of me, giving a 5 to 10 minute blow by blow of what they've already covered after every commercial break... the people that have been listening don't need it because they heard you the first time...

And I don't mind a recap.... but not after you come back from every single break, and they don't need to be so long.


Also he doesn't know sports...

nor would he let his kid order french fries for breakfast at ihop, you know the important stuff jk
beast  
#30 Posted : Tuesday, October 30, 2012 1:01:24 PM(UTC)
Porforis said: Go to Quoted Post
My point is that while it's obvious that it's a trick play when they change formations, it's NOT obvious that they're going to try to go for the first when you send your punter back in shotgun formation in a spot in the field where a punt would be ideal. The second Cobb is back in shotgun, any doubt is completely eliminated. As far as Crosby going out wide as a gunner, where else is he supposed to go in that formation where he's less likely to get killed?

I agree with what you're saying about Cobb there.

My point is simply they already raised red flags by going from a FG look to a Shot gun / punting look... that red flag got them thinking.

If they wanted to pass out of the punt look, they should of started in the punt look with Crosby on the bench (which he's even less likely to get killed)



beast  
#31 Posted : Tuesday, October 30, 2012 1:07:58 PM(UTC)
Pack93z said: Go to Quoted Post
It was about personnel grouping on the Jags part... so.. they didn't shift until after the players are set.. so by trotting out Mastay, the Packers apparently liked the match ups with the personnel on the field. The benefit of even trotting out the unit.. to gain the personnel advantage, or what they perceived to be so.

Otherwise.. if you are just going to go for it.. then why not have your best players on the field.. with Rodgers leading the play?


I'm fine with that... I still disagree with rolling Masthay to the left and having Crosby on the field, I think if they wanted a Masthay pass, a fake punt would of been better than a fake FG, into a fake punt...


I'm guessing you would make an argument that the Jags FG rush team might be easier to make a play on then the Jag Punt rush team, but I think the fake FG switch gave it away.

If they were going to try a fake FG into a fake Punt into a pass play, they should of done a couple of fake FGs into a real punt first... at least one...
Porforis  
#32 Posted : Tuesday, October 30, 2012 1:12:39 PM(UTC)
beast said: Go to Quoted Post
I agree with what you're saying about Cobb there.

My point is simply they already raised red flags by going from a FG look to a Shot gun / punting look... that red flag got them thinking.

If they wanted to pass out of the punt look, they should of started in the punt look with Crosby on the bench (which he's even less likely to get killed)


I still say it's just as obvious from the punt formation if you send Cobb back there in Masthay's place. 5-10 black guy doesn't do a great 6'1" white guy impression. I guess one upside to starting with Cobb in the punt formation that I didn't consider before was that if they make it REAL obvious that they're going to go for it and it takes them at least a few seconds to realize what's up, it's that much more likely that they're going to call a timeout because of personnel, matchup issues.

Kind of a moot point here as we'll never know for sure, but this might have been a situation where the Packers saw something on film that shows the Jaguars have problems with getting their special teams personnel in order or tend to have slower players on their field goal unit that are exploitable. By starting in field goal formation, then shifting to an offensive formation this prevents any last-second substitutions and it's much more likely that you're going to be able to get set before the defenders than if you start in the offensive formation.
PackFanWithTwins  
#33 Posted : Tuesday, October 30, 2012 1:29:41 PM(UTC)
Best option IMO for a fake in that situation, would have been to line up in Punt formation, with Cobb as the personal protector with Kuhn out. Then shift Masthay from the normal punt depth to standard Shotgun. Shifting the rest how ever to create a pass formation crabtee, boykin, cobb, DJ. That would make the defense think about Cobb, and if nothing looks right, snap the ball and quick kick it, if it looks good, go for it.
beast  
#34 Posted : Tuesday, October 30, 2012 1:31:48 PM(UTC)
Porforis said: Go to Quoted Post
I still say it's just as obvious from the punt formation if you send Cobb back there in Masthay's place. 5-10 black guy doesn't do a great 6'1" white guy impression. I guess one upside to starting with Cobb in the punt formation that I didn't consider before was that if they make it REAL obvious that they're going to go for it and it takes them at least a few seconds to realize what's up, it's that much more likely that they're going to call a timeout because of personnel, matchup issues.

Kind of a moot point here as we'll never know for sure, but this might have been a situation where the Packers saw something on film that shows the Jaguars have problems with getting their special teams personnel in order or tend to have slower players on their field goal unit that are exploitable. By starting in field goal formation, then shifting to an offensive formation this prevents any last-second substitutions and it's much more likely that you're going to be able to get set before the defenders than if you start in the offensive formation.



I don't think you understand what I was saying... I meant Cobb at holder in the fake FG look, OR just out of the punt look with no Cobb. My point is one kicker on the field... not both.

Also I'd be for a fake FG into a real punt... as long as they got a speedsters to get down the field fast to down that thing. I wouldn't want to see Crosby going for a tackle (which he would, and one of the reasons I like him, he's willing to try his best to make the tackles if they come close enough to him).

Porforis  
#35 Posted : Tuesday, October 30, 2012 1:35:56 PM(UTC)
PackFanWithTwins said: Go to Quoted Post
Best option IMO for a fake in that situation, would have been to line up in Punt formation, with Cobb as the personal protector with Kuhn out. Then shift Masthay from the normal punt depth to standard Shotgun. Shifting the rest how ever to create a pass formation crabtee, boykin, cobb, DJ. That would make the defense think about Cobb, and if nothing looks right, snap the ball and quick kick it, if it looks good, go for it.


Agreed that if you're going to do a passing play from the punt formation, that's the best way to do it. Disguise Cobb as best as you can for as long as you can. Heck, I'd fake a run to Cobb then pass it. I'd assume the defense would note Cobb and pay more attention to him than anyone else.
macbob  
#36 Posted : Tuesday, October 30, 2012 1:49:03 PM(UTC)
I'm a nay, but more on the what it says about our team/approach to the Jags game vs the play call/execution itself.

Obviously, we spent time in practice working on that play--we didn't just whip it out during the game. We're going against a team that we're favored to whip by more than two touchdowns and we're working on cutesy trick plays?

I can't shake the feeling that we weren't taking the Jags all that seriously in advance of the game, and this makes me feel like it was starting from the coaching staff on down.
MontanaBob  
#37 Posted : Tuesday, October 30, 2012 3:41:01 PM(UTC)
As a holder waaaay back in college, I was one for one on fake field goal passes. This was directly off the snap...we were in field goal formation and did not shift.

Unfortunately, my pass was a Pick Six for 70 yards against Utah State, in Ogden , Utah. Didn't matter, we still got crushed 49-17.
Scythe  
#38 Posted : Tuesday, October 30, 2012 3:55:12 PM(UTC)
I found the play I was talking about earlier.


Maybe Harrell should have taken the snap.
RajiRoar  
#39 Posted : Tuesday, October 30, 2012 4:37:49 PM(UTC)
IMO



1. If you MUST fake it, use players in a role they are familiar with.. ex. Kuhn up the middle, fake pass from Flynn (or Harrell) last year. Don't let the punter chuck it.. although we all know Jon Ryan was a RB trapped in a punter's body.

2. Just leave Aaron Rodgers out there.

3. Just leave Aaron Rodgers out there.

4. Punting and FGs are not bad things in most cases.
beast  
#40 Posted : Tuesday, October 30, 2012 7:57:15 PM(UTC)

Why do we even take Rodgers off the field for 4th down? ... just let him pass it and we'll get the 1st down Laugh
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