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Offline PackFanWithTwins  
#101 Posted : Monday, October 29, 2012 7:35:00 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Porforis Go to Quoted Post
I've heard people complaining about the performance of just about everyone... The line as a whole, Rodgers, Crosby, Masthay, Finley, DJ Williams, Driver, you name it. I think we're all damned spoiled.


But when they are criticized, it has been justified. Finley has been sitting at 4 drops since what, week 3?
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Offline earthquake  
#102 Posted : Monday, October 29, 2012 7:40:04 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: PackFanWithTwins Go to Quoted Post
But when they are criticized, it has been justified. Finley has been sitting at 4 drops since what, week 3?


He's also has a measly 13 catches for 132 yards and 0 tds in the five games since week 3 as well, which is reason enough to be critical of him. Most of which have been games without Jennings so there should have been plenty of opportunities for him to put up some big numbers.
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Offline PackFanWithTwins  
#103 Posted : Monday, October 29, 2012 7:54:51 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: earthquake Go to Quoted Post
He's also has a measly 13 catches for 132 yards and 0 tds in the five games since week 3 as well, which is reason enough to be critical of him. Most of which have been games without Jennings so there should have been plenty of opportunities for him to put up some big numbers.


Not having Jennnigs, does not give Finley more opportunities, it makes it possible for the defense to cover him tighter because of not having to worry about Jennings. Finley is going to get the same amount of snaps. Jennings out gives another WR more oppourtunity.

He can't throw the ball to himself.

I'll go back through the game later this week, and pay attention to Finley to see the coverage on him, and if he is just being overlooked, or if it is coverage or just not getting open more that is causing fewer targets. It could be that Rodgers has been told that he was trying to force it to Finley to much.
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Offline doddpower  
#104 Posted : Monday, October 29, 2012 10:18:20 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: PackFanWithTwins Go to Quoted Post
I'll go back through the game later this week, and pay attention to Finley to see the coverage on him, and if he is just being overlooked, or if it is coverage or just not getting open more that is causing fewer targets.


Why wouldn't Rodgers overlook Finley? I wouldn't have a lot of faith in the guy to make a tough catch over the middle at this point. I would personally trust Jones and Cobb more. When a player fails to make many clutch plays, it's only natural for them to drop down the progression a little bit.
Offline PackFanWithTwins  
#105 Posted : Monday, October 29, 2012 10:36:55 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: doddpower Go to Quoted Post
Why wouldn't Rodgers overlook Finley? I wouldn't have a lot of faith in the guy to make a tough catch over the middle at this point. I would personally trust Jones and Cobb more. When a player fails to make many clutch plays, it's only natural for them to drop down the progression a little bit.


Could it be, that Finley was having drops because he was getting targeted more, now that the targets have shifted, Cobb has as many drops as Finley.
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Offline doddpower  
#106 Posted : Monday, October 29, 2012 12:11:29 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: PackFanWithTwins Go to Quoted Post
Could it be, that Finley was having drops because he was getting targeted more, now that the targets have shifted, Cobb has as many drops as Finley.


I don't have time to dig through football stats at the moment. All I can say is I know Randall Cobb has been consistently producing recently and Finley hasn't contributed much. It's one thing to drop passes, but if one is still producing, it's not as big of a deal. But several drops in addition to a lack of production isn't good. I'd be looking for Randall Cobb before Finley, unquestionably (and Nelson, Jennings, and Jones). Unfortunately, I'm not the QB of the Packers, though. =/


EDIT: And constant talk to the media doesn't help his case, even if it's minor comments. Just shut up and keep practicing and playing hard.

Finley's comments Re: Jags game: http://profootballtalk.n...d-after-beating-jaguars/
Offline Pack93z  
#107 Posted : Monday, October 29, 2012 12:20:20 PM(UTC)
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I don't have much issue with Finley on the football field past his showboating nonsense over a rather routine play. He is helping the team through simply lining up.. if he can straighten out his drop issue (which apparently is almost flawless in practice, which probably is more mental than physical) all the better.


But he has to learn to either explain his points better or calm down and keep his emotions in check while talking to the press. Or stop talking so they don't nitpick them apart.

Yesterday it is the defense against the offense.. yada yada yada. I wish he would just calm down the talk in the press and let his actions show the way.

I firmly believe he has a fragile ego and needs to psych himself up in compensation.. let all this nonsense of chemistry go and just relax, play the game and catch the football.

I think when there's enough will and aggression, there's no shortage of talent either.

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Offline PackFanWithTwins  
#108 Posted : Monday, October 29, 2012 1:10:30 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: doddpower Go to Quoted Post
I don't have time to dig through football stats at the moment. All I can say is I know Randall Cobb has been consistently producing recently and Finley hasn't contributed much. It's one thing to drop passes, but if one is still producing, it's not as big of a deal. But several drops in addition to a lack of production isn't good. I'd be looking for Randall Cobb before Finley, unquestionably (and Nelson, Jennings, and Jones). Unfortunately, I'm not the QB of the Packers, though. =/


EDIT: And constant talk to the media doesn't help his case, even if it's minor comments. Just shut up and keep practicing and playing hard.

Finley's comments Re: Jags game: http://profootballtalk.n...d-after-beating-jaguars/


And what is wrong with his comments? Was he not right?

Is it suprising that Finley has gone down in production, when Jennings has been out of games, when defenses can shift coverages to him? NO. Is is suprising that Cobb has increased? NO. It was expected. Much of Cobbs production comes from routes that get cleared by Finley pulling coverage away.

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Offline Pack93z  
#109 Posted : Monday, October 29, 2012 1:12:52 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: PackFanWithTwins Go to Quoted Post
Is is suprising that Cobb has increased? NO. It was expected. Much of Cobbs production comes from routes that get cleared by Finley pulling coverage away.



This is what many are missing in terms of what Finley does for us passed the catches (and drops) and his other contributions to the team.

That defenses still fear him.. and as long as he does that, he still is a production player for the Packers. Catches and impact plays are a bonus.



I think when there's enough will and aggression, there's no shortage of talent either.

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Offline nerdmann  
#110 Posted : Monday, October 29, 2012 1:25:56 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Pack93z Go to Quoted Post
This is what many are missing in terms of what Finley does for us passed the catches (and drops) and his other contributions to the team.

That defenses still fear him.. and as long as he does that, he still is a production player for the Packers. Catches and impact plays are a bonus.





DO they still fear him?

He's still tall, but he's not nearly as athletic as pre-knee injury, imo.
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Offline Pack93z  
#111 Posted : Monday, October 29, 2012 1:33:38 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: nerdmann Go to Quoted Post
DO they still fear him?

He's still tall, but he's not nearly as athletic as pre-knee injury, imo.


Watch the coverage.. IMO, yes they still fear him.
I think when there's enough will and aggression, there's no shortage of talent either.

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Offline doddpower  
#112 Posted : Monday, October 29, 2012 2:12:32 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Pack93z Go to Quoted Post
Watch the coverage.. IMO, yes they still fear him.


From my initial views of all the snaps, I'm not convinced they "fear" him. They cover him, yes, but I wouldn't call it fear. He's accounted for, and that helps, but his impact lately has not been monumental. I've got most of the games recorded, so I'll try to go back through if I have time, but at this point I'm not convinced. Finley hasn't gotten a lot of separation in some time now.
Offline doddpower  
#113 Posted : Monday, October 29, 2012 2:19:47 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: PackFanWithTwins Go to Quoted Post
And what is wrong with his comments? Was he not right?

Is it suprising that Finley has gone down in production, when Jennings has been out of games, when defenses can shift coverages to him? NO. Is is suprising that Cobb has increased? NO. It was expected. Much of Cobbs production comes from routes that get cleared by Finley pulling coverage away.




If Finley can only be very productive with Aaron Rodgers, Jordy Nelson, Randall Cobb, and James Jones are on the field, than that makes him an average tight end, imo. That's not necessarily a bad thing. Not all players are elite. But a truly great tight end will still produce. The rest of the Packers surrounding cast is still really good, including the guy throwing him the ball. There should be more room for Finley, but he simply doesn't get a lot of separation and has developed a pattern of untimely drops. It is what it is, but it's too bad he hasn't been able to consistently produced at the same level he showed earlier in his career.

The Packer's can easily make it by with just an average Finley, but not for long with that price tag. He's not getting paid like an average tight end, and the Packers aren't going to have much cash to spare.

As for his comments, it's not a matter of whether what he has ever said is right or wrong. I just don't like to hear that kind of stuff continually spoken to the media, especially given some of his previous comments. Keep it in house. Any statement he makes to the media isn't likely to help the on-field production, so what's the point? The risk vs. reward isn't worth it. If he was producing big time, I really wouldn't care what he said, within reason. But when a player isn't producing much, I really don't want to hear their opinions of their teammates performances. I'm sure others feel differently.
Offline nerdmann  
#114 Posted : Monday, October 29, 2012 2:26:23 PM(UTC)
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Dude's a glorified Donald Lee.

Hoping Quarless pushes him down the stretch.
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Offline doddpower  
#115 Posted : Monday, October 29, 2012 2:30:30 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: nerdmann Go to Quoted Post
Dude's a glorified Donald Lee.

Hoping Quarless pushes him down the stretch.


I think the biggest issue with Finley is many still view him or have feelings towards him as an elite tight end. He simply isn't, imo. Eventually, people will adjust their expectations, but it will likely be once he's no longer a member of the Packers. It's not a huge deal. The Packers have plenty of players that aren't "elite." There is certainly still a role for such players. For whatever reason, though, that perception lingers with Finley. Perhaps he'll be able to become an "elite" player at some point again, but I'm not overly optimistic about that.

EDIT: I know it's another pipe dream that would never happen, but I'd rather have Jared Cook Jr. of the Titans that recently requested a trade rather than Finley. He has played as good or better than Finley, and seems to have more upside at this point.
Offline PackFanWithTwins  
#116 Posted : Monday, October 29, 2012 2:38:49 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: doddpower Go to Quoted Post
If Finley can only be very productive with Aaron Rodgers, Jordy Nelson, Randall Cobb, and James Jones are on the field, than that makes him an average tight end, imo. That's not necessarily a bad thing. Not all players are elite. But a truly great tight end will still produce. The rest of the Packers surrounding cast is still really good, including the guy throwing him the ball. There should be more room for Finley, but he simply doesn't get a lot of separation and has developed a pattern of untimely drops. It is what it is, but it's too bad he hasn't been able to consistently produced at the same level he showed earlier in his career.

The Packer's can easily make it by with just an average Finley, but not for long with that price tag. He's not getting paid like an average tight end, and the Packers aren't going to have much cash to spare.

As for his comments, it's not a matter of whether what he has ever said is right or wrong. I just don't like to hear that kind of stuff continually spoken to the media, especially given some of his previous comments. Keep it in house. Any statement he makes to the media isn't likely to help the on-field production, so what's the point? The risk vs. reward isn't worth it. If he was producing big time, I really wouldn't care what he said, within reason. But when a player isn't producing much, I really don't want to hear their opinions of their teammates performances. I'm sure others feel differently.


Now his value vs his price is an issue that can be looked at, its the Drops, Besides a couple games early this year, he hasn't had a drop problem, and 1/2 of those I wouldnt' even consider drops, yet it is constantly talked about.

As for his comments, people, media mostly, WANT to make them into something so they have topics to talk about. When in reality, they are nothing.
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Offline Yerko  
#117 Posted : Monday, October 29, 2012 3:10:13 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: doddpower Go to Quoted Post
EDIT: And constant talk to the media doesn't help his case, even if it's minor comments. Just shut up and keep practicing and playing hard.

Finley's comments Re: Jags game: http://profootballtalk.n...d-after-beating-jaguars/


Unfortunately, he is right about most of these things said. He isn't doing himself any favors saying these things though. He says he isn't pointing fingers but it sure seems like it to me and I'm not so sure how the media can twist those comments exactly.

Whatever.

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Offline Porforis  
#118 Posted : Monday, October 29, 2012 3:55:23 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: PackFanWithTwins Go to Quoted Post
Now his value vs his price is an issue that can be looked at, its the Drops, Besides a couple games early this year, he hasn't had a drop problem, and 1/2 of those I wouldnt' even consider drops, yet it is constantly talked about.

As for his comments, people, media mostly, WANT to make them into something so they have topics to talk about. When in reality, they are nothing.


I agree with everything but the comment about drops. Yes, a lot of his drops are kind of borderline where the pass was either behind him, or he needed to fight for the ball. The problem is that he doesn't have speed (anymore), he isn't great at blocking, and he isn't making the hard catches (and earlier in the year, the easy catches). On top of all of that, I think people don't like the fact that he tends to "showboat" (or get excited and dance a bit) after seemingly routine plays, oftentimes not too long after he drops a manageable one. He is who he is, Clay Matthews has that kind of attitude and showboats a fair amount, although Matthews is a completely different caliber of player.

I've given James Jones tons of crap for his drops in the past, however he's never been one to draw attention to himself (intentionally or otherwise) and he HAS dramatically improved with the dropsies this year in particular. Finley was outstanding before he got hurt, I really do feel for the guy and I don't think he WANTS to draw attention and drama to himself, but he does. Some of that is on him, a lot of that is on the media for wanting to make a story about nothing, but the fact of the matter is that he is playing like an utterly average first or second string TE and he is getting paid a lot more than he is worth. That in and of itself isn't bad, people are just going to be a lot harder on a guy when he goes from very good to average versus someone very average. Perceptions about his attitude, real or imagined don't help either.

Hell, maybe I should just straight-up calling for Finley's head. It turned Jones, the special teams, and Jarret Bush around, and I'd love to have Finley make me look like an asshole.
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Offline Zero2Cool  
#119 Posted : Tuesday, October 30, 2012 5:48:18 AM(UTC)
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Jason Witten, Rob Gronkowski, and Jimmy Graham all have more dropped passes than Jermichael Finley.
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Offline Porforis  
#120 Posted : Tuesday, October 30, 2012 6:20:50 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool Go to Quoted Post
Jason Witten, Rob Gronkowski, and Jimmy Graham all have more dropped passes than Jermichael Finley.


And I have less dropped passes than Finley, doesn't mean I have superior hands. I'm willing to bet all of the above (especially Gronkowski) have significantly more targets.
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Offline Zero2Cool  
#121 Posted : Tuesday, October 30, 2012 6:26:46 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Porforis Go to Quoted Post
And I have less dropped passes than Finley, doesn't mean I have superior hands. I'm willing to bet all of the above (especially Gronkowski) have significantly more targets.


Depending on your definition of significantly, you would lose that bet.

29, 19, and 7 more targets than Finley.

Message modified by user Tuesday, October 30, 2012 10:34:08 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Offline doddpower  
#122 Posted : Tuesday, October 30, 2012 10:20:00 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool Go to Quoted Post
Depending on your definition of significantly, you would lose that bet.

29, 19, and 7.


In what order are these numbers? Witten was targeted 22 times on Sunday alone. Does the number 29 imply that he only received 7 targets otherwise? Perhaps I'm just confused.

Either way, as with any statistic alone, the full story isn't told. It's one thing to drop passes when there is still a lot of production. We all make mistakes but what's often most important is how we respond to those mistakes. It's another to drop a substantial number of passes in key situations in addition to producing very little (and getting paid a lot). But I forgot, Finley is soooo feared that he requires double coverage on every single play and makes everyone else's life as a receiver easy. Finley gets such great separation in the passing game, that he would take over a game if single covered. Sarcasm
Offline Porforis  
#123 Posted : Tuesday, October 30, 2012 10:45:04 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool Go to Quoted Post
Depending on your definition of significantly, you would lose that bet.

29, 19, and 7.


http://wp.advancednflstats.com/playerstats.php?pos=TE

Code:

Player          GP  YDS RecTD Tgts
82-J.Witten      7	487   1    70
87-R.Gronkowski  8	580   7    64
80-J.Graham	     6	315   4    52
88-J.Finley      8	265   1    43


I'd get drop stats from ProFootballFocus.com but apparently it requires an account.

via http://www.sportscity.com/NFL-Salaries/ (Bug seems to prevent multiple "Code" fields from displaying):

Player 2012-13 Salary 2013-14 Salary
Jason Witten $3,641,000 $0
Jermichael Finley $950,000 $4,450,000
Jimmy Graham $540,000 $575,000
Rob Gronkowski $490,000 $575,000
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Offline Zero2Cool  
#124 Posted : Friday, November 2, 2012 1:57:16 PM(UTC)
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Jermichael Finley wrote:
If I was the quarterback, I wouldn’t throw it to the guy who’s off rhythm right now, either. So I’ve got to get that trust back.


After the Saints game, Mike McCarthy showed him a video of him plucking the ball out of the air that Shawn posted earlier today. He's setup meetings with Aaron Rodgers for 30 minutes the day prior to the game. And here he's acknowledging his drops and lack of targets because of said drops. His position coach says he's catching nearly every single pass thrown to him during practice.

What. Gives?!?!
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Offline Rios39  
#125 Posted : Friday, November 2, 2012 3:27:36 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool Go to Quoted Post
After the Saints game, Mike McCarthy showed him a video of him plucking the ball out of the air that Shawn posted earlier today. He's setup meetings with Aaron Rodgers for 30 minutes the day prior to the game. And here he's acknowledging his drops and lack of targets because of said drops. His position coach says he's catching nearly every single pass thrown to him during practice.

What. Gives?!?!


He lets people like us get inside his head lol
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