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Offline Gaycandybacon  
#1 Posted : Monday, November 5, 2012 10:20:17 PM(UTC)
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Looking at other teams in the league, you know watching the games here and there on tv oother than the Pack.
I think our Offensive Line isn't that bad.

Zombie and others pointed it out that Ted has done a great job drafting Linemen. I as well believe we're an underrated group baring Bulagas injury.

It seems like when watching this team , more than other teams, we pick up blitzes and can digest rushing schemes very well. We just need to win those tough 1 on 1 battles and our line could be one of the best.



Offline RajiRoar  
#2 Posted : Monday, November 5, 2012 11:23:35 PM(UTC)
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I blame scheme/playcalling more than anything with our current group.



am i crazy or does it seem that we don't block down field very often.. it seems like our OL is always stuck the LoS.

3rd and Brick wall


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Offline Gaycandybacon  
#3 Posted : Tuesday, November 6, 2012 12:05:24 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: RajiRoar Go to Quoted Post
I blame scheme/playcalling more than anything with our current group.



am i crazy or does it seem that we don't block down field very often.. it seems like our OL is always stuck the LoS.

3rd and Brick wall


That one run where Cobb ran from the backfield inside, we blocked down field and picked up a pretty good gain. It's rare indeed, but our type of team doesn't run like that. We don't run a lot of trap plays or streachs, which I wish we did..
Offline nerdmann  
#4 Posted : Tuesday, November 6, 2012 12:30:33 AM(UTC)
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They're better at pass blocking than they are at run blocking.
“Winning is not a sometime thing, it is an all the time thing. You don't do things right once in a while…you do them right all the time.”
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wpr on 11/6/2012(UTC)
Offline yooperfan  
#5 Posted : Tuesday, November 6, 2012 4:54:23 AM(UTC)
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No, IMHO they are average at best.
Rodgers and his quick feet bail them out time and again, a pure pocket passer would be in serious trouble in Green Bay.
Blocking in the run game is a pure cluster fuck.

James Campen may be the biggest problem with the OL, it's beyond time for a coaching/philosophy change regarding Green Bays OL.
Offline PackFanWithTwins  
#6 Posted : Tuesday, November 6, 2012 7:50:18 AM(UTC)
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I believe the Oline is better than they appear.

First is run blocking, Since McCarthy came, our run game and blocking has gone down hill. I think that is because of the scheme and our players not fitting. We are not good at blocking the outside zone, and because of so, we have run less. The old saying that running backs become better as the game goes on is not accurate. The run game becomes more productive because the defense gets worn down. We haven't been wearing down defenses.

Second, Pass rush. Not running the ball, deeper longer developing routes and the number of snaps we take from the shotgun all are beneficial to pass rushers. With the shotgun, there is no question on how deep Rodgers is going to be, where coming from under center, could be 1,3,5,7 steps. Because of that, our Tackles always have to protect the deep outside speed rush, which always opens up a bigger lane for an inside move. Not running the ball, makes it like a defense rushing in the 4th qtr with a 30 point lead. Just pin the ears back and go. And longer routes, take more time.

I have seen some changes this year, in less outside zone run blocking, especially noticeable this last week. And it worked. We have been able to run between the tackles this year with Benson and both Green and Starks. It is when we go outside that we don't have success.

Keep running, very the QB drop and have more slants, or under drag routes to check to so Rodgers has more options to check to when the deep ball is covered. Do that and our line will be just fine.

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Offline zombieslayer  
#7 Posted : Tuesday, November 6, 2012 7:57:43 AM(UTC)
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Gay - What I meant was Uncle Ted is off the hook for our OL. He's done his job drafting them. The coaches are responsible for taking his draft picks and converting them to NFL level players.

How good is our OL? By looking at the actual results, they seem pretty bad. Aaron has been sacked 28 times in 9 games and none of our RBs are averaging more than 3.5 yards per carry.

Now let's make a comparison here. In 2003, we had an elite level OL. It was the only time since I've been following the Packers in the mid-70s when I'd rank our OL as elite level.

2003 - we had not one, not two, but THREE RBs who averaged 5.0 ypc or better. And Favre got sacked only 19 times that year. Aaron's already been sacked 28 times and we've played 9 games.

So something is wrong. The only guy in the clear is Uncle Ted because since joining the Packers, he's given us 14 OL draft picks including two first round OTs (in 2010 and 2011). Someone else needs to be blamed.
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Offline Pack93z  
#8 Posted : Tuesday, November 6, 2012 8:21:33 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: zombieslayer Go to Quoted Post
Gay - What I meant was Uncle Ted is off the hook for our OL. He's done his job drafting them. The coaches are responsible for taking his draft picks and converting them to NFL level players.


Most know my feeling on Campen, but does Ted really get a pass for his offensive line choices?

Name one of his line choices that went elsewhere and performed well. The only marginal one I can think of is Colledge.. and that is extremely margin. We got better when he left.
I think when there's enough will and aggression, there's no shortage of talent either.

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Offline zombieslayer  
#9 Posted : Tuesday, November 6, 2012 8:42:38 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Pack93z Go to Quoted Post
Most know my feeling on Campen, but does Ted really get a pass for his offensive line choices?

Name one of his line choices that went elsewhere and performed well. The only marginal one I can think of is Colledge.. and that is extremely margin. We got better when he left.


Tackles (7): Tony Moll (2006-5b), Breno Giacomini (2008-5), T.J. Lang (2009-4), Jamon Meredith (2009-5b), Bryan Bulaga (2010-1), Marshall Newhouse (2010-5b), Derek Sherrod (2011-1).

Guards (6): William Whitticker (2005-7b), Daryn Colledge (2006-2a), Jason Spitz (2006-3b), Allen Barbre (2007-4), Josh Sitton (2008-4b), Caleb Schlauderaff (2011-6a).

Center (1): Junius Coston (2005-5a).

Going by year:
2005 Coston played 'til '07 and Whitticker bombed. Fail
2006 Colledge and Spitz are still playing in the NFL today and Moll played up until last year. Success
2007 Barbre played up until last year. Wash
2008 Sitton starts for us and Giacomini starts for the 'Hawks. Success
2009 Lang is an important guy for us now who gets moved around all the time and Meredith started 4 games this year for the Bucs. Success
2010 Bulaga and Newhouse are both still on the team. Success
2011 Sherrod had that freak injury and Schlauderhaserhorf or whatever his name is still plays on the Jets, although he has no starts this year. Wash
2012 Datko's on our PS. He may be called up soon. ?

So yeah, I'd say Uncle Ted is off the hook.
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Offline wpr  
#10 Posted : Tuesday, November 6, 2012 9:47:29 AM(UTC)
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I don't see the OL as being underrated.

As ZS pointed out the team has given up too many sacks. Some are on Aaron Rodgers for holding the ball too long. This is especially frustrating after having the buzzer go off in TC after 2.6 seconds. Seems like that was a wasted drill.

The struggles with the RB isn't all their fault. Some of it belongs on the OL. If it is the wrong blocking scheme that too is somewhat their fault. They are professionals in the NFL they have to excel in whatever system they are placed in. They can not be so limited as to only be good at one thing and one thing only.

That said I somewhat disagree with not looking at Uncle Teddy for some of the problem. He may have drafted 14 players but he used very few high draft picks on the line. It is very difficult to turn coal into diamonds. It takes a lot of pressure, heat and time. Would I have wanted him to give up the WRs and gone with better linemen? No but just because he selects someone in the 6th or 7th round doesn't mean he is in the free and clear and that he is not responsible. Linemen in the 1st 2 rounds usually excel. 3-4th are capable of starting. The ones drafted 5-7 rounds are projects at best. 7 of them were picked up in the lower rounds so it is no surprise that most of them did not contribute in significant fashion.
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Offline zombieslayer  
#11 Posted : Tuesday, November 6, 2012 10:03:49 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: wpr Go to Quoted Post
I don't see the OL as being underrated.

As ZS pointed out the team has given up too many sacks. Some are on Aaron Rodgers for holding the ball too long. This is especially frustrating after having the buzzer go off in TC after 2.6 seconds. Seems like that was a wasted drill.

The struggles with the RB isn't all their fault. Some of it belongs on the OL. If it is the wrong blocking scheme that too is somewhat their fault. They are professionals in the NFL they have to excel in whatever system they are placed in. They can not be so limited as to only be good at one thing and one thing only.

That said I somewhat disagree with not looking at Uncle Teddy for some of the problem. He may have drafted 14 players but he used very few high draft picks on the line. It is very difficult to turn coal into diamonds. It takes a lot of pressure, heat and time. Would I have wanted him to give up the WRs and gone with better linemen? No but just because he selects someone in the 6th or 7th round doesn't mean he is in the free and clear and that he is not responsible. Linemen in the 1st 2 rounds usually excel. 3-4th are capable of starting. The ones drafted 5-7 rounds are projects at best. 7 of them were picked up in the lower rounds so it is no surprise that most of them did not contribute in significant fashion.


I do get what you're saying, but 2 of the past 3 years, we used our 1st round picks on OL. Sherrod was a freak injury and Bulaga has been playing injured this year so looks worse than he is. Both should turn out to be solid players when they heal.

The best draft I remember for OL was 2000 when we got both Cliffy and Tauscher. None of our current Ts are on their level. So yes, they haven't been replaced. Will either Sherrod or Bulaga get to their level? Remains to be seen.
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Offline Pack93z  
#12 Posted : Tuesday, November 6, 2012 10:20:22 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: zombieslayer Go to Quoted Post
Tackles (7): Tony Moll (2006-5b), Breno Giacomini (2008-5), T.J. Lang (2009-4), Jamon Meredith (2009-5b), Bryan Bulaga (2010-1), Marshall Newhouse (2010-5b), Derek Sherrod (2011-1).

Guards (6): William Whitticker (2005-7b), Daryn Colledge (2006-2a), Jason Spitz (2006-3b), Allen Barbre (2007-4), Josh Sitton (2008-4b), Caleb Schlauderaff (2011-6a).

Center (1): Junius Coston (2005-5a).

Going by year:
2005 Coston played 'til '07 and Whitticker bombed. Fail
2006 Colledge and Spitz are still playing in the NFL today and Moll played up until last year. Success
2007 Barbre played up until last year. Wash
2008 Sitton starts for us and Giacomini starts for the 'Hawks. Success
2009 Lang is an important guy for us now who gets moved around all the time and Meredith started 4 games this year for the Bucs. Success
2010 Bulaga and Newhouse are both still on the team. Success
2011 Sherrod had that freak injury and Schlauderhaserhorf or whatever his name is still plays on the Jets, although he has no starts this year. Wash
2012 Datko's on our PS. He may be called up soon. ?

So yeah, I'd say Uncle Ted is off the hook.


So lets compare that to the league overall.. see how Ted Compares. First one, all drafts 2005 through 2011.

Okay.. so we draft a higher percentage of average offensive lineman.

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I think when there's enough will and aggression, there's no shortage of talent either.

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Offline Pack93z  
#13 Posted : Tuesday, November 6, 2012 10:21:52 AM(UTC)
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But we know it takes about 3 years to evaluate a draft.. so 2005 - 2009.

Again.. we collect more starts.. but nothing of quality no All pros.. no Pro Bowls.

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I think when there's enough will and aggression, there's no shortage of talent either.

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Offline Pack93z  
#14 Posted : Tuesday, November 6, 2012 10:35:12 AM(UTC)
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Attaching the list of drafted lineman since it is a easy as I have them documented.
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I think when there's enough will and aggression, there's no shortage of talent either.

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Offline zombieslayer  
#15 Posted : Tuesday, November 6, 2012 10:50:20 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Pack93z Go to Quoted Post
But we know it takes about 3 years to evaluate a draft.. so 2005 - 2009.

Again.. we collect more starts.. but nothing of quality no All pros.. no Pro Bowls.



Ouch. OK, Uncle Ted does get a strike against him.

I thought Josh Sitton made the Pro Bowl once and I checked and found I was mistaken.
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Offline Pack93z  
#16 Posted : Tuesday, November 6, 2012 10:59:58 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: zombieslayer Go to Quoted Post
Ouch. OK, Uncle Ted does get a strike against him.

I thought Josh Sitton made the Pro Bowl once and I checked and found I was mistaken.


I am not saying he has drafted horrible players, but it is slightly alarming that we haven't drafted a single pro bowl player in that span.

I stand by my conviction that Campen cannot develop consistent talent worth a pinch.
I think when there's enough will and aggression, there's no shortage of talent either.

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Offline wpr  
#17 Posted : Tuesday, November 6, 2012 11:00:01 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: zombieslayer Go to Quoted Post
I do get what you're saying, but 2 of the past 3 years, we used our 1st round picks on OL. Sherrod was a freak injury and Bulaga has been playing injured this year so looks worse than he is. Both should turn out to be solid players when they heal.

The best draft I remember for OL was 2000 when we got both Cliffy and Tauscher. None of our current Ts are on their level. So yes, they haven't been replaced. Will either Sherrod or Bulaga get to their level? Remains to be seen.


agreed.
I intentionally did not mention with the OTs on the prior teams Uncle did not NEED to draft any in first round during those early years. I was just trying to keep things simple. Didn't mean to try and slant things.

I have no problem at all with his current OT first round selections.
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Offline Pack93z  
#18 Posted : Tuesday, November 6, 2012 11:25:30 AM(UTC)
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For prespective on the Pro Bowl thing...

Between 2005 and 2009... 218 offensive lineman were drafted. Only 18 of those lineman have been voted to a Pro Bowl. 7.8 % of the players selected have made the Pro Bowl. 10 of those 17 were drafted in Round 1.
I think when there's enough will and aggression, there's no shortage of talent either.

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Offline Pack93z  
#19 Posted : Tuesday, November 6, 2012 11:49:40 AM(UTC)
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Okay.. so then I got curious.. which team seems to draft well and what is the norm by team.

Here you go. (2005 through 2009)
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I think when there's enough will and aggression, there's no shortage of talent either.

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Online Zero2Cool  
#20 Posted : Tuesday, November 6, 2012 11:53:03 AM(UTC)
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I thought Scott Well or Josh Sitton went to the Pro Bowl?
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Offline Pack93z  
#21 Posted : Tuesday, November 6, 2012 11:56:21 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool Go to Quoted Post
I thought Scott Well or Josh Sitton went to the Pro Bowl?


Scott Wells - Drafted 2004. Went to the pro bowl 2011 as a reserve.

Sitton was an Alternate in 2010. Not a Primary player. And he was an alternate to the alternate.
I think when there's enough will and aggression, there's no shortage of talent either.

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Offline play2win  
#22 Posted : Tuesday, November 6, 2012 12:08:44 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Pack93z Go to Quoted Post
I am not saying he has drafted horrible players, but it is slightly alarming that we haven't drafted a single pro bowl player in that span.

I stand by my conviction that Campen cannot develop consistent talent worth a pinch.


I'm not a huge Campen fan either, but he sure had his guys ready when Bulaga went down. Didn't miss a beat. EDS may prove to be a very good addition to our OL. I LOVE that his first game starting this year will be against the Lions...
Offline wpr  
#23 Posted : Tuesday, November 6, 2012 12:16:43 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Pack93z Go to Quoted Post
For prespective on the Pro Bowl thing...

Between 2005 and 2009... 218 offensive lineman were drafted. Only 18 of those lineman have been voted to a Pro Bowl. 7.8 % of the players selected have made the Pro Bowl. 10 of those 17 were drafted in Round 1.


that is a part of the problem with using the PB as a yardstick of success. The players and fans keep voting the same ones in year after year. Even if someone has an off year people will vote for him out of habit and because we don't have good stats for OL along with the lack of knowledge on the part of many people as to who the OL are. If you stand outside any stadium on Sunday before the game and asked the fans who the OL for the other team I would say 80% of them can not name more than 2. So how can we expect them to know who the best linemen in the league are.
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Offline RajiRoar  
#24 Posted : Tuesday, November 6, 2012 12:21:47 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool Go to Quoted Post
I thought Scott Well or Josh Sitton went to the Pro Bowl?


he got O-lineman of the year from NFL alum.



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Offline Pack93z  
#25 Posted : Tuesday, November 6, 2012 12:41:12 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: wpr Go to Quoted Post
that is a part of the problem with using the PB as a yardstick of success. The players and fans keep voting the same ones in year after year. Even if someone has an off year people will vote for him out of habit and because we don't have good stats for OL along with the lack of knowledge on the part of many people as to who the OL are. If you stand outside any stadium on Sunday before the game and asked the fans who the OL for the other team I would say 80% of them can not name more than 2. So how can we expect them to know who the best linemen in the league are.


Agreed.. hence why All Pro and # of Games Played have been included. This is without getting into the metrics of play type information.
I think when there's enough will and aggression, there's no shortage of talent either.

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