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Offline doddpower  
#301 Posted : Friday, November 9, 2012 11:14:15 PM(UTC)
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zombieslayer on 11/10/2012(UTC), Formo on 11/10/2012(UTC)
Online DakotaT  
#302 Posted : Saturday, November 10, 2012 7:21:18 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: PackFanWithTwins Go to Quoted Post
Once again, why? How much money does government need? How much of our money does it need?

Where in my post did I say anything about not providing for those who actually need assistance? The problem with people like you is, you don't have the ability to comprehend the difference between reduce and eliminate. reducing and getting those off the government dollar, that don't NEED to be on it, only makes it easier for those who actually do need it.



I'm really getting sick and tired of being called stupid by you assholes. I worked in taxation for twenty years and still do it part time. When I say the wealthy have circumvented the tax code for their own personal gain at the expense of the middle class and poor, just accept that I know what the fuck I'm talking about.

We differ in ideology. Any person that says human kindness can replace taxation is fucking mook. I believe the time has come to gut the wealthy, not only because they deserve it, but also because it is necessary because that is where the money is.
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Offline zombieslayer  
#303 Posted : Saturday, November 10, 2012 9:23:44 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: doddpower Go to Quoted Post
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And this is why I can't stand either of them.

So it comes down to this - you're voting pretty much on whether or not you agree with abortion and slightly higher or slightly lower taxes. But then again, the Republicans are pro-choice as well, but they have to pretend to be anti-abortion for votes. Watch what happens when they go into office - they'll make some obscure anti-abortion law that pretty much affects no one, and then the pro-lifers will claim victory, then disappear, but abortion will stay legal.

Everyone knows that if abortion becomes illegal, the Republican party will cease to exist immediately. Anyone ever heard of Lee Atwater? He said this before he died, but said it behind closed doors and it has stuck with the tops of the Republican party ever since.

Now on real issues - The Wars, the War on Drugs, the Fed, Corporate welfare, the police state, they're exactly the same.

Dakota - I don't think you're stupid. I actually think you're quite bright, but you're playing victim here. You got caught up in the name calling. I'm not saying who started it because it's a moot point. You just got caught up in it.

The truth is there's only one fair tax, and that's a consumption tax. The true rich, not some doctor who makes $300k a year but has $250k in expenses (not including rent and food) and barely stays above water every year, but the guy who makes $10k a year and gets way more than that doctor gets from untaxed trusts. I'm talking about that guy. It's NOT about income and it never has been. Those guys don't pay taxes. People like Paris Hilton. Her "income" comes from modeling and that gets taxed heavily, but she has a spending account from her daddy that's untaxed. And that money can pay for her lear jet/Gucci bag/cocaine habit. And is untaxed.

See, you set up a consumption tax and the doctor pays LESS tax and Paris Hilton actually pays taxes besides that joke of a modeling career.
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Offline dhazer  
#304 Posted : Saturday, November 10, 2012 12:47:56 PM(UTC)
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I have a question for everyone, Seeing they are going to be raising my taxes between 2500 and 4000 bucks a year to cover this bullshit Obamacare, Does this mean I can claim like 3 or 4 people on my taxes seeing I am paying for them? And for all you people that like this Obamacare take a good look at our neighbors to the north. If you have cancer and are in your 40's you don't get any help because it can go to someone else that is younger.

Once again I want to welcome everyone to the United Socialist States of America run by King Obama
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Offline doddpower  
#305 Posted : Saturday, November 10, 2012 12:49:05 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: zombieslayer Go to Quoted Post
The truth is there's only one fair tax, and that's a consumption tax. The true rich, not some doctor who makes $300k a year but has $250k in expenses (not including rent and food) and barely stays above water every year, but the guy who makes $10k a year and gets way more than that doctor gets from untaxed trusts. I'm talking about that guy. It's NOT about income and it never has been. Those guys don't pay taxes. People like Paris Hilton. Her "income" comes from modeling and that gets taxed heavily, but she has a spending account from her daddy that's untaxed. And that money can pay for her lear jet/Gucci bag/cocaine habit. And is untaxed.

See, you set up a consumption tax and the doctor pays LESS tax and Paris Hilton actually pays taxes besides that joke of a modeling career.


This is similar in nature to what some people bitched about Mitt Romney's tax rate. From my understanding of his situation (I am NOT an expert), he doesn't even have an income at the moment, just returns on his investments. Therefore, he pays a much lower rate than you or I, despite making millions and millions and being in the top 0.01% of earners. Adjusting the tax code and "closing loop holes" as they speak of could address this. However, the truly rich will always find ways to manipulate the tax code, because no major changes to truly stop them will happen. If the tax code is altered a bit, they'll simply alter their strategy all the same. It's understandable how many Americans would get irritated that a larger percentage of their money goes to the Government than some of the wealthy, but it's just how it is. I wouldn't expect that to change regardless of what changes Obama, Romney, or any other politician would make. Approximately 60% of Americans said that they favor some tax increases from the exit polling. Whether it's ultimately 'good' or 'bad,' majority wins in a Democracy.

Also, I read somewhere that even if the tax rates are increased on those making over $250,000/year, it would only be on that portion of money OVER $250 k that would be taxed at a higher rate. For example, if one makes $500,000 a year, the first $249,000 would be taxed at the 'lower' rate, and the remainder of the money would be taxed at the few percentage points higher rate (what is it, 37%?). Once again, I'm not tax expert, nor do I pretend to be, but I did find that interesting.

Either way, as the graphic I posted earlier said, ultimately, either major party would have slight differences. Both sides are currently agreeing that that an approach of increased revenue and spending cuts must occur. It seems like that will happen, although perhaps not at the magnitude that some want. If the Government severely cuts multiple programs to cut spending, many people will be affected by that, including people being put out of work. That will raise unemployment and take money out of the economy. Raising taxes on the wealthy may take some money out of the economy as well, but I don't think the effects would be as bad as dismantling entire agencies which many, many people have built their careers around and raise their family on (in addition to often doing really good and important work). It's almost a damned if they do, damned if they don't type plan. Certainly neither option is good for the economy in the short term, and the long term effects are debatable, as well.

I acknowledge that the needed investment isn't going to happen, but I still stand by the principles I made in an earlier post. If America could become significantly more energy independent, it would not only create many more jobs, but also tremendously reduce the power of the "energy countries." Yes, that involves much, much more than drilling for more oil, fracking for natural gas, and burning coal in the long run, but that is certainly a PART of the solution. I have no idea what a revolutionary type of technology might be, but if it could be invented, the World as we know it would change. Sure, many new problems would arise as a result, but it would substantially solve many of the current issues. Unfortunately, the oil companies and those that are slaves to their money don't want that to happen yet.

Yes, companies such as Solyndra are embarrassing and unacceptable, but of the money that was invested in renewable technology recent by the Obama administration, only 8% of them failed. It's a great talking point, but that's obviously not bad, relatively speaking. It's certainly better than many of the other subsidies given to the oil industry and things such as ethanol production, etc. Talk about "picking and choosing winners and losers." It doesn't get much worse than that. Nothing is going to work 100% of the time, including a space program, infrastructure and defense contracts, research programs, etc. etc. What's important is that there is a high success rate and mistakes are investigated and every action possible is taken to prevent those same mistakes from repeating in the future.

If America can't generate some type of novel commodity that the rest of the world can't live without, this debt battle will never end. Hopefully this new "high tech manufacturing" I've heard a lot about in the past year or so will help.

Offline doddpower  
#306 Posted : Saturday, November 10, 2012 3:18:37 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: dhazer Go to Quoted Post
I have a question for everyone, Seeing they are going to be raising my taxes between 2500 and 4000 bucks a year to cover this bullshit Obamacare, Does this mean I can claim like 3 or 4 people on my taxes seeing I am paying for them? And for all you people that like this Obamacare take a good look at our neighbors to the north. If you have cancer and are in your 40's you don't get any help because it can go to someone else that is younger.

Once again I want to welcome everyone to the United Socialist States of America run by King Obama



I'm not doubting you, but I would LOVE to see some type of source covering the facts of your income taxes being raised $4,000, and especially the issue you speak of in Canada. I have some friends in Canada and they would definitely beg to differ. I'd love to educate myself on that matter. So anyone that is ~40'ish years old doesn't get any medical treatment? That is definitely news to me. If nothing else, Canada's patent system for prescription drugs destroys that of the United States. Medications that can only be bought as name brands here in the States and cost $200-500+ monthly are readily available as generics in Canada. Add to that the common "doughnut holes" that exist in many health insurance plans and that is incredibly detrimental to many Americans daily lives. It's not uncommon for insurance plans here in the States to have an approximately $2,000 annual cap on name brand drugs. After that limit is met, payment is completely up to the individual. I know this for a fact because it's something I deal with. I take something that costs ~$500 monthly, and there is no generic available in the U.S. Therefore, I have to ration four months worth across a whole year or pay $500 for one months worth out of pocket (despite already paying $220/month for insurance). Generic drugs are unlimited, but many specialized medications have multiple patents on them in the U.S. that don't expire for years and years. If one searches around online they can find multiple forums discussing ordering/buying drugs from Canada to get by, despite the legal gray areas of doing so. Obviously, that is just one example of the health care system being designed to maximize shareholder profits, NOT to help anyone achieve the elusive "American Dream." I really wish there was more being done to address this particular issue, in addition to many many similar things. Unfortunately, I don't see much happening on that front and it really hurts many thousands of Americans daily.
Offline doddpower  
#307 Posted : Saturday, November 10, 2012 4:35:14 PM(UTC)
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One additional thing that comes to mind in a public system such as Canada: There are still many options to purchase private health insurance to cover things that the public plan doesn't. There are supplementary type plans and other things such as vision, dental, etc. Even in a public system, if people have money they are willing to spend on health insurance, there will be a market for it. The general goal of the public plan is to at least offer a minimal level of care to everyone. Private insurance can be purchase if one would not like to share a hospital room with 2-3 other people and would prefer a private room, or perhaps even receive additional tests or more individual care. I really don't buy the whole 'people with cancer in their 40's would be left to die thing', especially no more (and likely much less) than currently happens in the U.S. for people who can't afford their treatment due to not having health insurance.

I recently injured my knee and was basically given two treatment options: go home and rest and deal with it, or do what was best for me and get an MRI, have surgery, and a few months of physical therapy. Had I not had insurance, I undoubtedly would have been pushed into the first option and would have felt the effects of this injury for the rest of my life (even with the treatment I still will to some extent). It would have been impossible for me to afford the treatment I needed without my Coverage. I'm fortunate enough to have the coverage, but many are not or were simply not wise enough to be paying for it beforehand. Individuals like that either don't get the proper treatment and suffer enormously (or worse), or try to find some way to get a charity or Government program to assist them, thereby increasing health care prices across the board for everyone. This obviously happens every minute of every day with emergency room visits in which hospitals often to not receive payment for. So once again, either the quality of life for an individual goes way down, the financial burden falls on us all, and most commonly, both. Obviously no one has figured out how to best deal with this, but hopefully countries will keep trying, evaluating, and modifying in hopes of finding the best solution. It has to start somewhere.
Offline vikesrule  
#308 Posted : Saturday, November 10, 2012 6:40:41 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: dhazer Go to Quoted Post
I have a question for everyone, Seeing they are going to be raising my taxes between 2500 and 4000 bucks a year to cover this bullshit Obamacare, Does this mean I can claim like 3 or 4 people on my taxes seeing I am paying for them? And for all you people that like this Obamacare take a good look at our neighbors to the north. If you have cancer and are in your 40's you don't get any help because it can go to someone else that is younger.

Once again I want to welcome everyone to the United Socialist States of America run by King Obama


Oh hazer, I see that you stopped by the Rush Limbaugh Kool Aid stand again.


That would be some seriously funny shit, were it not so sad that some people actually believe that crap.

Online DakotaT  
#309 Posted : Saturday, November 10, 2012 6:59:20 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: vikesrule Go to Quoted Post
Oh hazer, I see that you stopped by the Rush Limbaugh Kool Aid stand again.


That would be some seriously funny shit, were it not so sad that some people actually believe that crap.



How can I love people like Haze and Cheesey, but want to take a 2X4 upside their head at the same time?
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Offline PackFanWithTwins  
#310 Posted : Saturday, November 10, 2012 9:40:27 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DakotaT Go to Quoted Post
I'm really getting sick and tired of being called stupid by you assholes. I worked in taxation for twenty years and still do it part time. When I say the wealthy have circumvented the tax code for their own personal gain at the expense of the middle class and poor, just accept that I know what the fuck I'm talking about.

We differ in ideology. Any person that says human kindness can replace taxation is fucking mook. I believe the time has come to gut the wealthy, not only because they deserve it, but also because it is necessary because that is where the money is.


Funny, I didn't call you stupid, but you obviously feel you are by your guilty conscience.

You simply can't justify taxing more because you have no idea how much tax is actually needed. You just have a hatred for those who have been successful for some odd reason. Probably because you know if you could get to where they are, you would not do anything different than they do.

It makes zero sense to raise tax when you admit there is waste in what is being spent now.
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Offline Porforis  
#311 Posted : Saturday, November 10, 2012 10:04:21 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: PackFanWithTwins Go to Quoted Post
Funny, I didn't call you stupid, but you obviously feel you are by your guilty conscience.

You simply can't justify taxing more because you have no idea how much tax is actually needed. You just have a hatred for those who have been successful for some odd reason. Probably because you know if you could get to where they are, you would not do anything different than they do.

It makes zero sense to raise tax when you admit there is waste in what is being spent now.


Except when we're 16 trillion in the hole and you're not going to get anywhere close to even cutting that in half by trimming the fat alone. Decreased spending, increased revenue. We can talk all day about when the time is right to raise taxes as to not unduly screw an already sluggishly growing economy, but we simply are spending way too much and not taking enough in. I'm absolutely with you, in that the government should first start looking to cut spending before they start digging into my pockets for more, but it's not a matter of IF they need more. It's how much.
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Offline buckeyepackfan  
#312 Posted : Sunday, November 11, 2012 6:54:54 AM(UTC)
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My question is simple,

I wonder how many of the thousands of people who have already lost their jobs, and the thousands of those who are going to lose their jobs due to layoffs, voted for President Obama?

I wonder if they would have reconsidered their votes if they realized their jobs were at stake?

It's no longer "Ask what you can do for you're country?", it's "Hey country, what are you going to give me?"

It's a shame that this point has finally come where there are more people who want the government to take care of them, than there are people who actually believed in "The American Dream".

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Offline Zero2Cool  
#313 Posted : Sunday, November 11, 2012 8:00:16 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: buckeyepackfan Go to Quoted Post
My question is simple,

I wonder how many of the thousands of people who have already lost their jobs, and the thousands of those who are going to lose their jobs due to layoffs, voted for President Obama?

I wonder if they would have reconsidered their votes if they realized their jobs were at stake?

It's no longer "Ask what you can do for you're country?", it's "Hey country, what are you going to give me?"

It's a shame that this point has finally come where there are more people who want the government to take care of them, than there are people who actually believed in "The American Dream".



I wonder how many realize its not a President that will make the necessary change, it's the people and it'll take an extreme measure to make the necessary change.

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Online DakotaT  
#314 Posted : Sunday, November 11, 2012 8:39:50 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: PackFanWithTwins Go to Quoted Post
Funny, I didn't call you stupid, but you obviously feel you are by your guilty conscience.

You simply can't justify taxing more because you have no idea how much tax is actually needed. You just have a hatred for those who have been successful for some odd reason. Probably because you know if you could get to where they are, you would not do anything different than they do.

It makes zero sense to raise tax when you admit there is waste in what is being spent now.


Telling me I don't understand something is the same thing as calling me stupid. The truth is that the wealthy have had control through their purchased politicians who make the tax laws. These laws have regressed taxes so that middle class people pay a much higher percentage of their income than do the wealthy. Is it fair that one man pays taxes on all his income because he does physical labor, but a propspector pays much less money on income from his investments? Yeah, that would be a no.

As for your little attempt at understanding me, the only thing you have right is my disdain for the wealthy - because a very high percentage of them have had it handed to them. Anybody that has actually "built it" without any help has my respect - but then there aren't alot of people that pulled themselves up by their bootstras now are there? The sperm lottery winners have and keep control, but according to this election - that is all slipping away now isn't it? And that's why the Republican establishment is going out of their fricken minds right now - and I'm loving every minute of it.
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Offline dhazer  
#315 Posted : Sunday, November 11, 2012 8:42:47 AM(UTC)
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fiscal cliff


There is what is going to happen Jan 1 which talks about all of the tax hikes coming for everyone of us. How they will be cutting unemployment back to just the 26 weeks, which in turn will kick millions of people off of unemployment. Ahhhh just read the article talking about what is going to run this country into nothing.


As far as the Canadian healthcare and being 40 was just an example and was taken wrong. Basically the idea of if you are older and have a non curable disease you won't get the help. They would rather use the money to help someone where it will help.
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Just Imagine this for the next 6-9 years. What a ride it will be :)
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