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Offline Zero2Cool  
#26 Posted : Monday, November 26, 2012 8:29:10 AM(UTC)
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LT
T.J. Lang
C
Josh Sitton
Bryan Bulaga


C is obviously a need and they are grooming Saturday's backup.
LT is hopefully going to be adequately filled by Derek Sherrod.


Marshall Newhouse (my thoughts) is an serviceable backup T at either position to finish a game.


Howie Long says Bulaga is the best RT in the game, so I'm going to defer to his expertise on that.
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nerdmann on 11/26/2012(UTC)
Offline Porforis  
#27 Posted : Monday, November 26, 2012 9:26:00 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool Go to Quoted Post
It really doesn't matter who is drafted if the coaches can't coach them up properly. Why don't you folks realize this? It is not that complicated. Drop the whole draft more OL rhetoric until a new OL coach is brought in. Until then, it is nothing but a wasted draft pick.


That.
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Offline Yerko  
#28 Posted : Monday, November 26, 2012 9:26:04 AM(UTC)
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I think it is a bit overboard to say we need to draft all offensive lineman in the next draft.
Bulaga is a good RT and minus some of his bad play this season, he has been just fine.
Sitton is the best lineman we have.
Lang is just fine at left guard...his play at right tackle is giving people a bad taste in their mouth.

Left tackle and center are the two positions in question. You can cancel out drafting a left tackle since we have a 1st round pick in Sherrod still waiting to play. Who knows what he will do when he is given that chance next season. Newhouse blows, that I will agree with. He is just as big of a wet fart as Webb on the Bears.
Center is an obvious need for this team. Saturday was a temporary fix that will not work past this season. He is just getting worked over and over again. At this point, I would take a top center in the draft and throw him into the mix immediately over another year with Jeff Saturday.
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Offline musccy  
#29 Posted : Monday, November 26, 2012 9:39:47 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Yerko Go to Quoted Post
I think it is a bit overboard to say we need to draft all offensive lineman in the next draft.
Bulaga is a good RT and minus some of his bad play this season, he has been just fine.
Sitton is the best lineman we have.
Lang is just fine at left guard...his play at right tackle is giving people a bad taste in their mouth.

Left tackle and center are the two positions in question. You can cancel out drafting a left tackle since we have a 1st round pick in Sherrod still waiting to play. Who knows what he will do when he is given that chance next season. Newhouse blows, that I will agree with. He is just as big of a wet fart as Webb on the Bears.
Center is an obvious need for this team. Saturday was a temporary fix that will not work past this season. He is just getting worked over and over again. At this point, I would take a top center in the draft and throw him into the mix immediately over another year with Jeff Saturday.


I was speaking facetiously about using every pick on an OL, but at the bare minimum this team needs a solution at LT and C and I'm not confident that solution is on the roster right now.

Dakota mentioned EDS at center, I'd be curious about that myself, but that's far from a sure fire solution.
Offline Pack93z  
#30 Posted : Monday, November 26, 2012 9:55:15 AM(UTC)
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Of course they were dominated last night, but it is not solely an offensive line talent problem.

I will remain in the corner that much of the struggles fall upon Campen's feet, and that sets in motion a Mike McCarthy mindset that he has to pass often.

We actually moved the ball decently when we ran balanced.. and the offensive line could even up the advantage a bit.

I disagree with the analysis on Newhouse, he is developing nicely at left tackle, far from the worst issue upon the line. Really, I think much of the issue start with the center over the last couple of seasons.. Wells couldn't get a ton of push due to size, and Saturday is a step back there in terms of running the ball.

Put an ass kicking Center in the middle of this line so that we can consistently open holes up the middle and this entire line improves instantly.

Of course there are more issues than just that, but I truly don't think we are that far away. 4 of the 5 spots are in good hands. And yes, that includes Newhouse.

Newhouse struggles with speed especially on turf.. give him a chip block in terms of help on the edge so he can get set up and he accounts for himself just fine. The problem we have currently, is they are trying to help Lang on the edge as well.. and with our open sets, can't help both.

Bulaga's injury was especially detrimental with us rolling the dice with Sherrod and not much else at depth there. It bit us square.
I think when there's enough will and aggression, there's no shortage of talent either.

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Offline PackerTraxx  
#31 Posted : Monday, November 26, 2012 10:02:31 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: musccy Go to Quoted Post
The next man up is cute rhetoric, but in reality it doesn't mean much. Your starters are starters for a reason - they're more talented, faster, quicker, stronger, more instinctive. If Harrell or Driver were forced into the position of "next man up" we could preach the mantra all we want, but would you really expect the same production?



This...and it shows more blatantly when you play good teams.
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Offline nerdmann  
#32 Posted : Monday, November 26, 2012 10:08:00 AM(UTC)
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Ted always leaves us dangerously thin at one position or another.

This year was OL.

And QB...
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Offline Zero2Cool  
#33 Posted : Monday, November 26, 2012 10:13:26 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: nerdmann Go to Quoted Post
Ted always leaves us dangerously thin at one position or another.

This year was OL.

And QB...


I agree, I think Mark Murphy should find a better General Manager. Ted Thompson is failing to have starting caliber backups at all 22 starting positions and can easily be replaced.
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Offline play2win  
#34 Posted : Monday, November 26, 2012 10:33:44 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: musccy Go to Quoted Post
If it were that easy, everyone in the league would have a 100 yard rusher each game. I'm sure Campen is an issue, but aside from Lang and Sitton at guard, I have virtually no confidence in anyone else on the roster at any other OL position. They seemingly can't pull, move for screens, hell they were manhandled in a 3 man rush at times last night. Every f'n draft pick in 2013 should be on an OL - well maybe one pick on a WR capable of beating a 5'9" corner pressing at the line wouldn't hurt.



This is crazy talk.

Our #1 problem at OL is: COACHING. Plain and simple.

We have drafted OL with our #1 pick twice in the last 3 years. Bulaga with the 23rd pick in 2010. Sherrod with the 32nd pick in the 2011 draft. Let's face it, our coaches (Campen and Hilgenberg) are not coaching this OL properly, and McCarthy and Clements are not calling the plays properly to put our team in a position to win.

It is really simple. Get your guys together, tell them we are going to run at the opponent 55% of our plays. Then, fucking call those plays and let your guys tee off!

Alex Green alone should have had 22 carries. Starks should have that or close to that too. Guess what? We would have won, and our OL would have gotten the game ball.

We should have punched NYG in the mouth. Instead, we absorbed their rush with devastating consequences, putting our players mostly in pass protection. The play calling alone made them look like a bunch of pansies. You cannot absorb that from a quality DL, on a mission, and expect to win. No team can.
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Since69 on 11/30/2012(UTC)
Offline play2win  
#35 Posted : Monday, November 26, 2012 10:36:46 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool Go to Quoted Post
I agree, I think Mark Murphy should find a better General Manager. Ted Thompson is failing to have starting caliber backups at all 22 starting positions and can easily be replaced.


i don't think that's fair. Ted has to own his part of the blame with regard to positions he left thin. And we all know he left BOTH DL and OL depth thin on the final 53. I , personally, cannot believe he did not find an adequate backup at NT for this season. That blows my mind.
Offline Zero2Cool  
#36 Posted : Monday, November 26, 2012 10:40:43 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: play2win Go to Quoted Post
i don't think that's fair. Ted has to own his part of the blame with regard to positions he left thin. And we all know he left BOTH DL and OL depth thin on the final 53. I , personally, cannot believe he did not find an adequate backup at NT for this season. That blows my mind.


You want to talk about being fair? Check the injury report. You can find flaws with EVERY single GM in the NFL. Is it really fair to lack objectivity and reason when saying someone is failing in their profession?

No one is absolving the GM of responsibility, but expecting 22 starting quality backup's is freaking absurd expectations.
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Offline play2win  
#37 Posted : Monday, November 26, 2012 10:47:01 AM(UTC)
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I love Ted, and I think he's been an amazing GM for us. I like McCarthy too. Hey, this staff of his got an inordinate amount of rookies to step up and play very well.

I'm just saying there are a couple of areas that are in fact on the GM. OL and DL depth. To start the season, both were left quite thin, were they not? Now, we've got atrophy on both lines, and questions looming about how to fill in the blanks. I'm not railing on Thompson, not at all. But, he left us thin in the trenches, where most teams win in this NFL.

The kicker for me is the DL. We needed pass rush. That was paramount after last season. Why, why, why leave your DL thin to start the season?

As for the OL, I happen to think we wouldn't even be talking about it if they were coached up to smash the Giants in the mouth for 4 quarters of run dominated offense.
Offline Pack93z  
#38 Posted : Monday, November 26, 2012 10:54:37 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: play2win Go to Quoted Post
I love Ted, and I think he's been an amazing GM for us. I like McCarthy too. Hey, this staff of his got an inordinate amount of rookies to step up and play very well.

I'm just saying there are a couple of areas that are in fact on the GM. OL and DL depth. To start the season, both were left quite thin, were they not? Now, we've got atrophy on both lines, and questions looming about how to fill in the blanks. I'm not railing on Thompson, not at all. But, he left us thin in the trenches, where most teams win in this NFL.

The kicker for me is the DL. We needed pass rush. That was paramount after last season. Why, why, why leave your DL thin to start the season?

As for the OL, I happen to think we wouldn't even be talking about it if they were coached up to smash the Giants in the mouth for 4 quarters of run dominated offense.


I will disagree with the premise that we don't have better DL depth than last season.. the numbers simply tell us that we have a better rotation than last season. See the defensive comparison thread.
I think when there's enough will and aggression, there's no shortage of talent either.

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Offline musccy  
#39 Posted : Monday, November 26, 2012 11:08:37 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: play2win Go to Quoted Post


The kicker for me is the DL. We needed pass rush. That was paramount after last season. Why, why, why leave your DL thin to start the season?



You can blame Ted et al for not drafting well, but not for a lack of an attempt to address this. He brought in Muir, a former 2nd rounder from the Dolphins, Hargrove, drafted Worthy, Daniels, and 2 LBs to help with the pass rush. Their was certainly a recognition of a flaw and an attempt to fix it.

Offline play2win  
#40 Posted : Monday, November 26, 2012 11:09:54 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Pack93z Go to Quoted Post
I will disagree with the premise that we don't have better DL depth than last season.. the numbers simply tell us that we have a better rotation than last season. See the defensive comparison thread.


I should have stuck with NT Pack93z. I just have not been thrilled with the idea of leaving Raji and Pick without proper backup.

I expected more from Worthy and Neal. Those two disappointed me against the Giants.
Offline Pack93z  
#41 Posted : Monday, November 26, 2012 11:18:47 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: play2win Go to Quoted Post
I should have stuck with NT Pack93z. I just have not been thrilled with the idea of leaving Raji and Pick without proper backup.

I expected more from Worthy and Neal. Those two disappointed me against the Giants.


I could point to trying to play nickel with a 2 man front and getting destroyed off guard.. but that would be making an excuse.

The guy that really had a bad game.. Brad Jones. He got tied up in traffic very often last night. Moses played decently, Walden showed he was nicked up. Hawk played another good game. Pickett was stout inside.. Raji was hit and miss. Daniels size was exposed a bit.. Neal is what he is, a up field player that can be beat at the point. Worthy I though played solid but didn't make a play all night.

I think we are starting to see that attrition bleed though with the loss of Bishop and Smith to injury.. we just can't rotate like we need to there.

I still will say we have better rotation overall in the defensive front.. but playing Pickett and Raji as much as we do is an issue.. but what else do you want them to do.. they are two of the best options we have.

I am not as concerned with the defense long term as I am with Mike McCarthy vs the offensive line limitations currently with play mix verse playoff caliber pass rushes. Notably, the Niners and the Giants.

To me.. there is a huge drop off past those two.. including us.

I think when there's enough will and aggression, there's no shortage of talent either.

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Offline beast  
#42 Posted : Monday, November 26, 2012 11:20:01 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: nerdmann Go to Quoted Post
Ted always leaves us dangerously thin at one position or another.

This year was OL.

And QB...


Every team is always dangerously thin at one position group or another...

Often times for the Packers lately it has been linemen, on one side of the ball or the other. But the Packers have done a pretty good job with their "skilled" positions (aka non-linemen (I still disagree with that phase but it's caught on))

And we've got talent on the lines... but they're not getting the job done (coaching maybe?). And on the OL, the two most talented OTs are injured (Bulaga and Sherrod... Newhouse might be better right now than Sherrod but I think Sherrod has more pure talent).

What this team needs is a running game... and to get a running game they need at least a very good RB and a better run blocking OL... Lang and Sitton might be good enough to get that done at OG, but Saturday needs upgraded, Newhouse needs to get upgraded, Bulaga and Sherrod needs to get 100% healthy and play up to their potential.

RB Green doesn't seem to be able to read his blocks and doesn't have much power. Starks has power but seems to get into Mike McCarthy dog house and get injured at times.
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Offline nerdmann  
#43 Posted : Monday, November 26, 2012 11:51:26 AM(UTC)
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I think we're fine at NT.

We keep 6 DL. Two at each position.

NTs are Pickett and Raji. Pickett is the run stuffer, Raji is the pass rusher.
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Offline QCHuskerFan  
#44 Posted : Monday, November 26, 2012 11:52:37 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: play2win Go to Quoted Post
This is crazy talk.

Our #1 problem at OL is: COACHING. Plain and simple.

We have drafted OL with our #1 pick twice in the last 3 years. Bulaga with the 23rd pick in 2010. Sherrod with the 32nd pick in the 2011 draft. Let's face it, our coaches (Campen and Hilgenberg) are not coaching this OL properly, and McCarthy and Clements are not calling the plays properly to put our team in a position to win.

It is really simple. Get your guys together, tell them we are going to run at the opponent 55% of our plays. Then, fucking call those plays and let your guys tee off!

Alex Green alone should have had 22 carries. Starks should have that or close to that too. Guess what? We would have won, and our OL would have gotten the game ball.

We should have punched NYG in the mouth. Instead, we absorbed their rush with devastating consequences, putting our players mostly in pass protection. The play calling alone made them look like a bunch of pansies. You cannot absorb that from a quality DL, on a mission, and expect to win. No team can.


Our #1 problem at OL is not coaching. It's injury/talent. 2 of our last 3 first round picks, arguably the most talented players in each draft, are injured and not playing. And it is the coaches fault that our line is struggling? They are working with less talented players and, naturally, getting less out of them. Are people really suggesting that it is the coaches fault that Saturday is not a dominating player? I haven't heard anybody say that. Most people are saying that he is too old. So how is that Campen's fault?

How was our pass rush last night? Crappy. Would it have been better with Matthews in the game. I believe so. Why? Would Greene or Capers all of a sudden been better coaches? No. But you would have an incredibly talented player in the game. Talent makes a difference.

Is Aaron Rodgers the MVP because his coach was the best in the world or is he the MVP because he is immensely talented and driven? He may have a great QB coach, but he is a stud player and that is why he is MVP.

The game against the Giants was exactly the wrong type of game to have. When the Pack got down early, it allowed the Giants to ignore the run game and rush the passer with abandon. When you have a 20pt lead, who cares if you give up 7-8 yard runs? So that type of game put our weakness in the oline on display. Does anybody besides me think that our oline performance would have been better if the Pack D hadn't allowed the Giants to score at will and build a big lead?

Unquestionably, all facets of the coaching staff can be better. But so can all levels of our players. And so can all levels of every business in the world. Perfection is not attainable.
Offline Rockmolder  
#45 Posted : Monday, November 26, 2012 12:11:47 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: nerdmann Go to Quoted Post
I think we're fine at NT.

We keep 6 DL. Two at each position.

NTs are Pickett and Raji. Pickett is the run stuffer, Raji is the pass rusher.


I think that we're fine, as well. What team has more than two capable bodies at NT? We just happen to have our backup play DE, as well.

I'm quite disapointed in the way the Packers played yesterday, as well, but how many teams would manage to get an o-line function properly when your starting RT is on IR, your back-up T still isn't able to play, your guard has to move to T and a third year UDFA has to play G.

To be fair, after knowing that Sherrod would be out for such a long time, we should've taken a look on the waiver wire and try to get a bit deeper with either a veteran tackle or guard, but there are very few o-lines in this league that could survive two tackles going down.

Then, combining that with your nr. 1 receiver being out, that makes for a pretty tough situation for any offense.

The defense is even extremer, with two of your best players out, your only other OLB who seemed to have a chance at rushing the passer and a starting corner. I'd like to see how that Denver defense does when Dumervil and Miller get injured, joining Tracy Porter.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't look for depth at those positions, it's just that you can't possibly have every single position covered depth-wise.

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Offline RajiRoar  
#46 Posted : Monday, November 26, 2012 12:18:35 PM(UTC)
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As easy as it is to goat our OL, Rodgers and McCarthy have done them no favors this year.

(Holding the ball, not throwing short, calling long developing routes)


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Offline Rockmolder  
#47 Posted : Monday, November 26, 2012 12:19:46 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: RajiRoar Go to Quoted Post
As easy as it is to goat our OL, Rodgers and McCarthy have done them no favors this year.

(Holding the ball, not throwing short, calling long developing routes)


I saw a ton of quick outs, sticks etc. None of our guys where getting any kind of seperation, though. Not that weird when they can constantly rush just four and get to Aaron in a second or three.
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Offline beast  
#48 Posted : Monday, November 26, 2012 12:33:54 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: nerdmann Go to Quoted Post
I think we're fine at NT.

We keep 6 DL. Two at each position.

NTs are Pickett and Raji. Pickett is the run stuffer, Raji is the pass rusher.


Honestly I thought that for a while... but has Raji been getting any pass rush lately?

I'm a big Pickett fan and think he's underrated but this DL doesn't seem to be getting the job done as whole. Don't get me wrong it's been decent to good at times. But there hasn't been any real stand out players the last two years, just consistently slightly above average guys...

And for the record I have noticed they have changed the defense some, being more conservative with the DL, protecting the LB more going to a more traditional 3-4 defense like the Patriots used to run. BUT even with Capers lets the dogs loose playing in the aggressive styles like he has the last couple of years... they not really getting too much pressure other than against bad OL (like the Lions RG, which they took a bad OL and made him look horrible.).
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Offline Pack93z  
#49 Posted : Monday, November 26, 2012 1:00:52 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Rockmolder Go to Quoted Post
I saw a ton of quick outs, sticks etc. None of our guys where getting any kind of seperation, though. Not that weird when they can constantly rush just four and get to Aaron in a second or three.


Exactly, I think that is what is being underlooked last night.. the receivers were getting handled in the jam and couple that with a defense that could let loose on the pass rush after we got down.. it was the perfect storm.

They and the rest of the NFL knows are MO.. we will abandon the run at some point if pushed. I had hope that we stick with it and stay patient. That pick was a killer that put a little panic in MM.

We are not as bad as that game indicated.. but we definitely have work to do. Cowherd called us frauds.. and beyond Rodgers a pathetic team. I hope those statements hit the locker room.. that and the late 4th down tries.

I think when there's enough will and aggression, there's no shortage of talent either.

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play2win on 11/26/2012(UTC)
Offline DarkaneRules  
#50 Posted : Monday, November 26, 2012 3:40:43 PM(UTC)
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Well I mean fraud is harsh but we are certainly not super bowl contenders with the team we took out on the field yesterday.
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26-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / rabidgopher04

26-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / nerdmann

26-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / nerdmann